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EFV-8 Club Forum / 1940 Ford Discussion / 1940 Standard Spring Covers

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Posted By Discussion Topic: 1940 Standard Spring Covers -- page: 1 2     V8COOPMAN 06-23-2012 @ 4:03 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 4 Joined: Feb 2011 I am currently restoring a 1940 Ford std. coupe. I want to install covered springs. I am aware of the pros and cons of these covers but for my purpose (show) I really like the detail the covers add to the chassis. I am doing my best to achieve a high point (correct) restoration. So, my question is: Are spring covers acceptable on a "standard" car? deuce_roadster 06-23-2012 @ 10:14 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 284 Joined: Oct 2009 You are certainly asking the right guy! My guess is while all the deluxe cars supposedly had the covers they might have been available as an option on the V8, Mike will know for sure! kubes40 06-24-2012 @ 6:20 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 3394 Joined: Oct 2009 Good morning guys, V8Coopman, Duece Roadster is correct. Spring covers were available on all models of passenger car in 1940. They were "stock" on all deluxe models and optional on all "standard" models. As an option, they would have been installed at the dealer level. V8COOPMAN 06-24-2012 @ 2:10 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 4 Joined: Feb 2011 I was speaking to a very nice gentleman in Hiawassee that has a stunning 1940 standard coupe. Perhaps the nicest I have ever seen. Apparently it had been judged at two earlier national shows. The last one the car had received 998 points. This time the owner had received a 12 point deduction for the covered springs. If I understand correctly the chief judge allowed a 6 point reduction if the owner agreed to sign off on the judging sheets. My concern remains in regard to installing covers on my standard coupe. Why would the owner receive a deduction for the covers this time and not the prior two times he showed the car? I have never had a car judged before and want to do this right the first time. alanwoodieman 06-24-2012 @ 4:12 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 868 Joined: Oct 2009 " the way it was received from the factory" has been bantered around for some time, my guess the judges took it to heart as Kube has said, they were most likely dealer installed deuce_roadster 06-24-2012 @ 7:17 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 284 Joined: Oct 2009 V8coopman, in a perfect world, different judging teams would come up with the same score. But...well you know the rest. I know several people who had their cars judged, fixed the things they got dinged on and at the next meet got a lower score. Just the nature of the way it is done. Try not to get too upset if it happens to you and enjoy your car. ford38v8 06-24-2012 @ 9:37 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 2758 Joined: Oct 2009 Alan, the way I understand the judging standards, it is "the way it was equipped as delivered". These are two very different interpretations, and perhaps should be examined in some detail. I do know that many options were to be installed at the dealership, rather than at the factory, so that fact in itself should tip the scales toward my definition. Dealer installed "options" of course does not include anything available to the Dealer at the time of the sale, as we do know that Dealers would go "across the street" to get items that a buyer insisted on being installed. Alan kubes40 06-25-2012 @ 6:46 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 3394 Joined: Oct 2009 I'd like to reply in regard to a couple of former comments. The concourse is to be judged on how the car was delivered from the factory and / or the dealer. This rule was written purposely worded as it was. To define this a bit more precisely: One must realize many cars were in that day picked up by the new owner directly from the factory. Thus, the new car never went through the dealers hands upon delivery. My '40 deluxe coupe is one such example. Yes, I have the paperwork to prove it. In this instance the car would be judged "as it left the factory". As it left the dealer does become a bit confusing for some participants but really, it should not. The dealer was allowed and actually in some cases encouraged to sell accessories, etc. to the new owner in order to increase his (dealer)profits. This is not a "get out of jail free" card to be used by an owner on the judging field. On the concourse, if anything in regard to a particular vehicle is thought to be outside the realm of authenticity (accessories, modifications), the owner must have proof in hand at that time that would clearly inform the deputy judge of it's authenticity at delivery. Also, any accessories MUST be Ford factory approved. While many dealers sold (example) Arvin heaters, they were NOT authorized by Ford and to this day NOT correct even if installed at the dealer level. In my experience (only one example) I had a fellow with a beautiful '40 Ford with an accessory rear gravel (bumper) shield painted body color (maroon). His argument of its correctness was twofold. One - it looked better matching the body color and two - it was altogether possible the dealer painted it for the new owner to match. Okay, both good arguments. One - I agree it looks better matching the body color and two - yes, I am quite confident the dealer would have painted the pan pink if the new owner demanded such. However, as far as my (and others)research has found these pans were ALWAYS black regardless of body color. And, the owner had no proof that the car was delivered with a "matching" shield. In this example, while the concourse participant offered reasonable arguments, he could not offer anything to suggest his pan was correct. Thus, a deduction held. To summarize: The car must be judged based on how the factory built and subsequently delivered the car OR the way the dealer delivered the car. Any "exceptions" to current standards must be proven by the owner at the time of judging. kubes40 06-25-2012 @ 7:07 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 3394 Joined: Oct 2009 Duece Roadster, Once again, you've hit the proverbial nail directly on the head. While I am confident the Club attempts to utilize the best judges available, it is limited of course by those that volunteer. It is unfortunate that there is little (none) training done with any judges. That allows for the discrepancies in knowledge and the disappointment in owners that try so very hard to achieve a "perfect" restoration. I am hoping that some day this issue will be addressed but I must admit, it would seemingly be a difficult (in reality) issue to overcome. Perhaps in a separate post we might as a group volley some ideas as to how this may better be achieved??? In the meantime, I feel we have the best system possible as flawed at times as it may be. That being said: V8Coopman...I did a little checking and am now aware of the '40 Standard coupe in Georgia and the circumstances surrounding the deduction for the spring covers. Unfortunately in this instance the judge(s), as well as the deputy and chief judge, while most certainly well intentioned, were mistaken. This is one of those specific areas that was not clearly addressed in the current '40 restoration book so it should be understandable that many folks were unaware of the proper utilization of spring covers on a '40 standard. In reality, the covers were available (as I stated in an earlier post) on all models of '40 passenger cars. As far as my research has uncovered, these would have been installed at the dealer level on standard models. Respectfully, Mike This message was edited by kubes40 on 6-25-12 @ 7:09 AM jbhemmings 07-13-2012 @ 3:33 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 1 Joined: Feb 2011 July 12, 2012 I am the person who has the 1940 Ford Std. Coupe with the covered springs. I have read the comments on the V8 Club website and now I would like to respond. My car had been judged at two prior national meets yet none of the points deducted at the GA. meet had been deducted previously. While I understand that the judges vary as well as their knowledge of these cars, I do not understand the way I was treated by the deputy and chief judges. I will tell you about the covered springs first. The deputy judge came to me with the scoring sheets (after the car was judged) with 12 points deducted for the covered springs. I had tried to show him an email that I had from the person who is writing on the new ‘40 Ford book, Mike Kubarth. He (the Deputy Judge) obviously did not want to hear about anything I had to say. His only words were “do you want to talk to the Chief Judge”? I replied that “yes, I would like to discuss this with him”. After waiting about 45 minutes the Chief Judge came by to (I thought), actually converse with me. It was more than obvious he his angry from the start of the conversation. What he said first was “I am just going to take half of the points (6) and you have your Dearborn so why worry about the points”? I tried to explain to him that the Dearborn was important to me but the points were most important to me. I have tried and continue to try to “perfect” my restoration. I attempted to show him the email that I had received previously from Mike Kubarth that provided proof that covered springs for a 1940 Ford Std. coupe was a dealer installed option. His answer back to me was and (I quote) “Mike Kubarth does not know as much as he thinks and he is not God” (end quote). He asked if I now have the original bill of sale from the dealer in 1940 that showed that the dealer installed covered springs on my car. I had other questions but I was so disenchanted / disgusted with the Chief Judge’s attitude and rudeness I did not feel compelled to continue the conversation. I felt strongly that the only thing he wanted me to do was just sign the form so he could leave. It is a shame that the owners spend so much time, research and money on their cars, not to mention the (Meet) trips that you cannot spend a few minutes with a judge that is actually interested in your judging sheets or the owner. It is not fair nor business like. I can accept the fact there will always be different opinions; however, there is no place for rude behavior. These folks represent the club. Is that what we as a club want or deserve? I would suggest to others in a similar situation: DON’T SIGN THE SHEEET SIMPLY BECAUSE THE CHIEF JUDGE IS EAGER TO MOVE ON. My other deductions were: Gloss paint on frame - 4 points. In the 1940 Restoration Book 1st edition on page 4-1 it states semi-gloss black, then on page 4-1 in the 1940 Restoration Book 3rd edition it states gloss black or very slightly modified gloss black. Finally, the V8 club judging instruction sheet (page 5 of 7) reads “Frame should be painted black”. Gloss paint underbody - 5 points. It is clearly stated that underbodies of cars were painted anybody color, not necessarily matching OR on occasion left in primer. One judge told me to drive the car and get dust underneath the car before driving it on to the concourse, we wax underneath the car just like waxing the hood, then the judge told me to take soap and water and wash the wax off. My wife purchased a Toyota Avalon off the show room floor and underneath the car was as clean as the top of the car. When I think of a show car I am thinking of a car that is or could be on the show floor at the dealer’s showroom. I would want it as clean as possible and I think the dealer’s showroom is like having in on the concourse. I lost 3 points for not having three condensers for the radio yet the 1940 Restoration Book on page 5-14 states “Add condensers only as necessary to reduce noise” my radio plays great. I lost 1 point for not having the engine crank extension rod. According to Lin Stacey, the Club’s tool advisor this was an option and as such was not required in a 1940 Ford. While I will continue to be an active member in our Club, I will hope the choice of future judges will be more closely scrutinized; especially the judge’s that come in to close contact with the owners. I can only imagine the negative impact this experience would have had on a new / young member.

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