| V8COOPMAN | -- 06-23-2012 @ 4:03 PM |
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I am currently restoring a 1940 Ford std. coupe. I want to install covered springs. I am aware of the pros and cons of these covers but for my purpose (show) I really like the detail the covers add to the chassis. I am doing my best to achieve a high point (correct) restoration. So, my question is: Are spring covers acceptable on a "standard" car?
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| deuce_roadster | -- 06-23-2012 @ 10:14 PM |
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You are certainly asking the right guy! My guess is while all the deluxe cars supposedly had the covers they might have been available as an option on the V8, Mike will know for sure!
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| kubes40 | -- 06-24-2012 @ 6:20 AM |
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Good morning guys, V8Coopman, Duece Roadster is correct. Spring covers were available on all models of passenger car in 1940. They were "stock" on all deluxe models and optional on all "standard" models. As an option, they would have been installed at the dealer level.
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| V8COOPMAN | -- 06-24-2012 @ 2:10 PM |
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I was speaking to a very nice gentleman in Hiawassee that has a stunning 1940 standard coupe. Perhaps the nicest I have ever seen. Apparently it had been judged at two earlier national shows. The last one the car had received 998 points. This time the owner had received a 12 point deduction for the covered springs. If I understand correctly the chief judge allowed a 6 point reduction if the owner agreed to sign off on the judging sheets. My concern remains in regard to installing covers on my standard coupe. Why would the owner receive a deduction for the covers this time and not the prior two times he showed the car? I have never had a car judged before and want to do this right the first time.
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| alanwoodieman | -- 06-24-2012 @ 4:12 PM |
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" the way it was received from the factory" has been bantered around for some time, my guess the judges took it to heart as Kube has said, they were most likely dealer installed
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| deuce_roadster | -- 06-24-2012 @ 7:17 PM |
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V8coopman, in a perfect world, different judging teams would come up with the same score. But...well you know the rest. I know several people who had their cars judged, fixed the things they got dinged on and at the next meet got a lower score. Just the nature of the way it is done. Try not to get too upset if it happens to you and enjoy your car.
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-24-2012 @ 9:37 PM |
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Alan, the way I understand the judging standards, it is "the way it was equipped as delivered". These are two very different interpretations, and perhaps should be examined in some detail. I do know that many options were to be installed at the dealership, rather than at the factory, so that fact in itself should tip the scales toward my definition. Dealer installed "options" of course does not include anything available to the Dealer at the time of the sale, as we do know that Dealers would go "across the street" to get items that a buyer insisted on being installed. Alan
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| kubes40 | -- 06-25-2012 @ 6:46 AM |
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I'd like to reply in regard to a couple of former comments. The concourse is to be judged on how the car was delivered from the factory and / or the dealer. This rule was written purposely worded as it was. To define this a bit more precisely: One must realize many cars were in that day picked up by the new owner directly from the factory. Thus, the new car never went through the dealers hands upon delivery. My '40 deluxe coupe is one such example. Yes, I have the paperwork to prove it. In this instance the car would be judged "as it left the factory". As it left the dealer does become a bit confusing for some participants but really, it should not. The dealer was allowed and actually in some cases encouraged to sell accessories, etc. to the new owner in order to increase his (dealer)profits. This is not a "get out of jail free" card to be used by an owner on the judging field. On the concourse, if anything in regard to a particular vehicle is thought to be outside the realm of authenticity (accessories, modifications), the owner must have proof in hand at that time that would clearly inform the deputy judge of it's authenticity at delivery. Also, any accessories MUST be Ford factory approved. While many dealers sold (example) Arvin heaters, they were NOT authorized by Ford and to this day NOT correct even if installed at the dealer level. In my experience (only one example) I had a fellow with a beautiful '40 Ford with an accessory rear gravel (bumper) shield painted body color (maroon). His argument of its correctness was twofold. One - it looked better matching the body color and two - it was altogether possible the dealer painted it for the new owner to match. Okay, both good arguments. One - I agree it looks better matching the body color and two - yes, I am quite confident the dealer would have painted the pan pink if the new owner demanded such. However, as far as my (and others)research has found these pans were ALWAYS black regardless of body color. And, the owner had no proof that the car was delivered with a "matching" shield. In this example, while the concourse participant offered reasonable arguments, he could not offer anything to suggest his pan was correct. Thus, a deduction held. To summarize: The car must be judged based on how the factory built and subsequently delivered the car OR the way the dealer delivered the car. Any "exceptions" to current standards must be proven by the owner at the time of judging.
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| kubes40 | -- 06-25-2012 @ 7:07 AM |
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Duece Roadster, Once again, you've hit the proverbial nail directly on the head. While I am confident the Club attempts to utilize the best judges available, it is limited of course by those that volunteer. It is unfortunate that there is little (none) training done with any judges. That allows for the discrepancies in knowledge and the disappointment in owners that try so very hard to achieve a "perfect" restoration. I am hoping that some day this issue will be addressed but I must admit, it would seemingly be a difficult (in reality) issue to overcome. Perhaps in a separate post we might as a group volley some ideas as to how this may better be achieved??? In the meantime, I feel we have the best system possible as flawed at times as it may be. That being said: V8Coopman...I did a little checking and am now aware of the '40 Standard coupe in Georgia and the circumstances surrounding the deduction for the spring covers. Unfortunately in this instance the judge(s), as well as the deputy and chief judge, while most certainly well intentioned, were mistaken. This is one of those specific areas that was not clearly addressed in the current '40 restoration book so it should be understandable that many folks were unaware of the proper utilization of spring covers on a '40 standard. In reality, the covers were available (as I stated in an earlier post) on all models of '40 passenger cars. As far as my research has uncovered, these would have been installed at the dealer level on standard models. Respectfully, Mike This message was edited by kubes40 on 6-25-12 @ 7:09 AM
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| jbhemmings | -- 07-13-2012 @ 3:33 PM |
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July 12, 2012 I am the person who has the 1940 Ford Std. Coupe with the covered springs. I have read the comments on the V8 Club website and now I would like to respond. My car had been judged at two prior national meets yet none of the points deducted at the GA. meet had been deducted previously. While I understand that the judges vary as well as their knowledge of these cars, I do not understand the way I was treated by the deputy and chief judges. I will tell you about the covered springs first. The deputy judge came to me with the scoring sheets (after the car was judged) with 12 points deducted for the covered springs. I had tried to show him an email that I had from the person who is writing on the new ‘40 Ford book, Mike Kubarth. He (the Deputy Judge) obviously did not want to hear about anything I had to say. His only words were “do you want to talk to the Chief Judge”? I replied that “yes, I would like to discuss this with him”. After waiting about 45 minutes the Chief Judge came by to (I thought), actually converse with me. It was more than obvious he his angry from the start of the conversation. What he said first was “I am just going to take half of the points (6) and you have your Dearborn so why worry about the points”? I tried to explain to him that the Dearborn was important to me but the points were most important to me. I have tried and continue to try to “perfect” my restoration. I attempted to show him the email that I had received previously from Mike Kubarth that provided proof that covered springs for a 1940 Ford Std. coupe was a dealer installed option. His answer back to me was and (I quote) “Mike Kubarth does not know as much as he thinks and he is not God” (end quote). He asked if I now have the original bill of sale from the dealer in 1940 that showed that the dealer installed covered springs on my car. I had other questions but I was so disenchanted / disgusted with the Chief Judge’s attitude and rudeness I did not feel compelled to continue the conversation. I felt strongly that the only thing he wanted me to do was just sign the form so he could leave. It is a shame that the owners spend so much time, research and money on their cars, not to mention the (Meet) trips that you cannot spend a few minutes with a judge that is actually interested in your judging sheets or the owner. It is not fair nor business like. I can accept the fact there will always be different opinions; however, there is no place for rude behavior. These folks represent the club. Is that what we as a club want or deserve? I would suggest to others in a similar situation: DON’T SIGN THE SHEEET SIMPLY BECAUSE THE CHIEF JUDGE IS EAGER TO MOVE ON. My other deductions were: Gloss paint on frame - 4 points. In the 1940 Restoration Book 1st edition on page 4-1 it states semi-gloss black, then on page 4-1 in the 1940 Restoration Book 3rd edition it states gloss black or very slightly modified gloss black. Finally, the V8 club judging instruction sheet (page 5 of 7) reads “Frame should be painted black”. Gloss paint underbody - 5 points. It is clearly stated that underbodies of cars were painted anybody color, not necessarily matching OR on occasion left in primer. One judge told me to drive the car and get dust underneath the car before driving it on to the concourse, we wax underneath the car just like waxing the hood, then the judge told me to take soap and water and wash the wax off. My wife purchased a Toyota Avalon off the show room floor and underneath the car was as clean as the top of the car. When I think of a show car I am thinking of a car that is or could be on the show floor at the dealer’s showroom. I would want it as clean as possible and I think the dealer’s showroom is like having in on the concourse. I lost 3 points for not having three condensers for the radio yet the 1940 Restoration Book on page 5-14 states “Add condensers only as necessary to reduce noise” my radio plays great. I lost 1 point for not having the engine crank extension rod. According to Lin Stacey, the Club’s tool advisor this was an option and as such was not required in a 1940 Ford. While I will continue to be an active member in our Club, I will hope the choice of future judges will be more closely scrutinized; especially the judge’s that come in to close contact with the owners. I can only imagine the negative impact this experience would have had on a new / young member.
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| deuce_roadster | -- 07-13-2012 @ 7:15 PM |
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Sounds like the chief judge at that meet thinks he is God. No excuse for being rude, I would be upset as you are. That was handled very poorly. The way the whole judging thing is designed with so many subjective items involved it will ALWAYS create controversies. Keep in mind there are 2 kinds of problems in this world, Life and Death situations, and everything else. This is very annoying to you I am sure but let it go and move on. It isn't worth the stress it could cause you. My 2 cents....
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| 40 Coupe | -- 07-15-2012 @ 5:25 AM |
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Regarding points: It is the responsibility of the car owner to prove, to the deputy or the chief, points in dispute, with FORD documentation. I have suggested here, that any accessory should NOT be added to the car, that is pointed judged, unless the owner is assured the accessory is fully correct and he has the proper documentation to prove it. In defense of judges, deputy, and chief. The show field is a VERY difficult time to sit down and read over pages of documentation, and to determine the correctness of accessories. Oftentimes their nerves are on edge and they are trying to do the RIGHT thing to correct issues, in short time periods. If you have had a difficult time with one or more of the accessories on your car, on the show field, I would suggest you enlighten everyone in the club by writing an informative factual technical article (forget any and all personal conflicts) for the V8 Times including copies of your Ford documents, or sources of same. The V8 Times needs more of these type articles. Ask the people you trust to proof read the article and make suggestions, before submitting.
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| deuce_roadster | -- 07-15-2012 @ 8:11 AM |
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40Coupe-Are some options accepted without documentation, or is it just the unusual ones? I doubt every 40 on the concourse with a heater or radio has the original bill of sale stating it was installed by the dealer. Just wondering. I've never judged 40s.
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| ford38v8 | -- 07-15-2012 @ 12:40 PM |
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40 Coupe has made an excellent point here. The judges are human, and it's a long day. Any question on authenticity of something should be ironed out in advance of showtime. Often, a meeting of the minds prior to the Concourse can be beneficial to all concerned. Not to say that a car should be pre-judged, I'm only suggesting that a particular area of concern can be addressed. As for documentation of every accessory, that's not such a bad idea for any accessory, but not usually needed. The case of the spring covers is unusual, and Ford documentation on the judging field would have settled the issue there and then with no ruffled feathers, and would have been a positive learning experience for all. Alan
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| 40 Coupe | -- 07-16-2012 @ 10:18 AM |
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The type of documentation necessary is technical in nature and not a business document. Lets say points were removed for an "incorrect" installation of a radio. The vehicles bill of sale would not prove the correctness of the installation. Ford did publish diagrams for the correct radio installation in the Branch Service Letters. Judges do not ask for bills of sale, the owner can install as many accessories as he wants on his car. The judges will look at the accessories and make a decision weather the accessory is correct for the vehicles year and the installation is correct. As an owner remember the vehicles accessories can add hundreds of parts to your car increasing the chance any of these added parts are incorrect or installed improperly. This increases the chance of a point deduction.
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| deuce_roadster | -- 07-16-2012 @ 4:57 PM |
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I agree if you are going for points the best strategy is to have zero accessories. They can only subtract points, they cannot (and should not) add. Most people though like them and will take the risk for the ones important to them.
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| kubes40 | -- 07-17-2012 @ 2:01 PM |
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Guys, maybe we should start a separate thread but I have to wonder why we, as a Club, do not offer some sort of "training" before sending judges out on a field? Don't we owe the owners of these cars that much? How can we value the Dearborn Award highly if the judging is so very arbitrary? The AACA requires training of their judges and they do NOT hold the concourse cars to the same degree of authenticity that or Club does.
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| alanwoodieman | -- 07-19-2012 @ 6:11 PM |
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Kube, mark clubs always tend to hold to a more specific set of judging standards. I have been a V8 club judge, 55-57 chev judge and an AACA judge with a lot of schools attended, meets judged, been chief judge at a national AACA meet, so I do have a little bit of experience. AACA must contend with all marks of auto's, trucks, motorcycles and there is no way for the club to be "picky" on the most part, althought some judges get a little carried away. I like this approach but also like the V8 club's approach but it needs to be tempered a little to help the new guys, judgeing classes would help but just being allowed to shadow a judging team would also help future judges and restoreres alike. Think about it and let's get a few ideas out there!
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| TomO | -- 07-20-2012 @ 7:46 AM |
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Training judges has been raised almost every year since I joined the club over 35 years ago. Nobody has come up with a practical way to do this. The host club cannot supply all of the judges, so they request volunteers. Volunteers give up one full day at the meet to judge the cars, if training was required, do we ask them to give up another day at the meet? Can the Club create a training video for each class that can be sent to each volunteer? How do you make sure that every judge remembers each special nut and bolt and every accessory that was available. How do you make sure that every judge knows when a particular feature became available in model year? How do you train a judge to cover the Mercury classes? They cover many years and there are significant differences between some years. The same can be said for Lincoln. The current practice can be improved on, but we are never going to have perfect cars or perfect judges. This discussion started because an owner wanted a particular accessory installed on his car and did not have a branch letter stating that this was an option. The judges were correct in making the deduction, because standard cars did not come with spring covers and he could not prove that it was an authorized dealer installed option. I would not accept an E-Mail as proof that a non-standard accessory was available when a copy of the branch letter should be available. The Deputy Judge and the Chief Judge should have backed up the judges and let the points deduction stand, because the owner did not have adequate proof. Owners should realize that the people judging their cars are fellow Club members that have volunteered to give up a day to examine their car so they can get a trophy. Judges should remember that they are dealing with fellow Club members that have slaved over their beauty trying to restore it to the way it was delivered. Everybody should have shown more courtesy. This is supposed to be a hobby that we do for fun. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 7-20-12 @ 8:01 AM
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