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EFV-8 Club Forum / 1940 Ford Discussion / 1940 Standard Spring Covers

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Posted By Discussion Topic: 1940 Standard Spring Covers -- page: 1 2     TomO 07-20-2012 @ 7:46 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 7250 Joined: Oct 2009 Training judges has been raised almost every year since I joined the club over 35 years ago. Nobody has come up with a practical way to do this. The host club cannot supply all of the judges, so they request volunteers. Volunteers give up one full day at the meet to judge the cars, if training was required, do we ask them to give up another day at the meet? Can the Club create a training video for each class that can be sent to each volunteer? How do you make sure that every judge remembers each special nut and bolt and every accessory that was available. How do you make sure that every judge knows when a particular feature became available in model year? How do you train a judge to cover the Mercury classes? They cover many years and there are significant differences between some years. The same can be said for Lincoln. The current practice can be improved on, but we are never going to have perfect cars or perfect judges. This discussion started because an owner wanted a particular accessory installed on his car and did not have a branch letter stating that this was an option. The judges were correct in making the deduction, because standard cars did not come with spring covers and he could not prove that it was an authorized dealer installed option. I would not accept an E-Mail as proof that a non-standard accessory was available when a copy of the branch letter should be available. The Deputy Judge and the Chief Judge should have backed up the judges and let the points deduction stand, because the owner did not have adequate proof. Owners should realize that the people judging their cars are fellow Club members that have volunteered to give up a day to examine their car so they can get a trophy. Judges should remember that they are dealing with fellow Club members that have slaved over their beauty trying to restore it to the way it was delivered. Everybody should have shown more courtesy. This is supposed to be a hobby that we do for fun. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 7-20-12 @ 8:01 AM alanwoodieman 07-19-2012 @ 6:11 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 868 Joined: Oct 2009 Kube, mark clubs always tend to hold to a more specific set of judging standards. I have been a V8 club judge, 55-57 chev judge and an AACA judge with a lot of schools attended, meets judged, been chief judge at a national AACA meet, so I do have a little bit of experience. AACA must contend with all marks of auto's, trucks, motorcycles and there is no way for the club to be "picky" on the most part, althought some judges get a little carried away. I like this approach but also like the V8 club's approach but it needs to be tempered a little to help the new guys, judgeing classes would help but just being allowed to shadow a judging team would also help future judges and restoreres alike. Think about it and let's get a few ideas out there! kubes40 07-17-2012 @ 2:01 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 3394 Joined: Oct 2009 Guys, maybe we should start a separate thread but I have to wonder why we, as a Club, do not offer some sort of "training" before sending judges out on a field? Don't we owe the owners of these cars that much? How can we value the Dearborn Award highly if the judging is so very arbitrary? The AACA requires training of their judges and they do NOT hold the concourse cars to the same degree of authenticity that or Club does. deuce_roadster 07-16-2012 @ 4:57 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 284 Joined: Oct 2009 I agree if you are going for points the best strategy is to have zero accessories. They can only subtract points, they cannot (and should not) add. Most people though like them and will take the risk for the ones important to them. 40 Coupe 07-16-2012 @ 10:18 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 1674 Joined: Oct 2009 The type of documentation necessary is technical in nature and not a business document. Lets say points were removed for an "incorrect" installation of a radio. The vehicles bill of sale would not prove the correctness of the installation. Ford did publish diagrams for the correct radio installation in the Branch Service Letters. Judges do not ask for bills of sale, the owner can install as many accessories as he wants on his car. The judges will look at the accessories and make a decision weather the accessory is correct for the vehicles year and the installation is correct. As an owner remember the vehicles accessories can add hundreds of parts to your car increasing the chance any of these added parts are incorrect or installed improperly. This increases the chance of a point deduction. ford38v8 07-15-2012 @ 12:40 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 2758 Joined: Oct 2009 40 Coupe has made an excellent point here. The judges are human, and it's a long day. Any question on authenticity of something should be ironed out in advance of showtime. Often, a meeting of the minds prior to the Concourse can be beneficial to all concerned. Not to say that a car should be pre-judged, I'm only suggesting that a particular area of concern can be addressed. As for documentation of every accessory, that's not such a bad idea for any accessory, but not usually needed. The case of the spring covers is unusual, and Ford documentation on the judging field would have settled the issue there and then with no ruffled feathers, and would have been a positive learning experience for all. Alan deuce_roadster 07-15-2012 @ 8:11 AM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 284 Joined: Oct 2009 40Coupe-Are some options accepted without documentation, or is it just the unusual ones? I doubt every 40 on the concourse with a heater or radio has the original bill of sale stating it was installed by the dealer. Just wondering. I've never judged 40s. 40 Coupe 07-15-2012 @ 5:25 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 1674 Joined: Oct 2009 Regarding points: It is the responsibility of the car owner to prove, to the deputy or the chief, points in dispute, with FORD documentation. I have suggested here, that any accessory should NOT be added to the car, that is pointed judged, unless the owner is assured the accessory is fully correct and he has the proper documentation to prove it. In defense of judges, deputy, and chief. The show field is a VERY difficult time to sit down and read over pages of documentation, and to determine the correctness of accessories. Oftentimes their nerves are on edge and they are trying to do the RIGHT thing to correct issues, in short time periods. If you have had a difficult time with one or more of the accessories on your car, on the show field, I would suggest you enlighten everyone in the club by writing an informative factual technical article (forget any and all personal conflicts) for the V8 Times including copies of your Ford documents, or sources of same. The V8 Times needs more of these type articles. Ask the people you trust to proof read the article and make suggestions, before submitting. deuce_roadster 07-13-2012 @ 7:15 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 284 Joined: Oct 2009 Sounds like the chief judge at that meet thinks he is God. No excuse for being rude, I would be upset as you are. That was handled very poorly. The way the whole judging thing is designed with so many subjective items involved it will ALWAYS create controversies. Keep in mind there are 2 kinds of problems in this world, Life and Death situations, and everything else. This is very annoying to you I am sure but let it go and move on. It isn't worth the stress it could cause you. My 2 cents.... jbhemmings 07-13-2012 @ 3:33 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 1 Joined: Feb 2011 July 12, 2012 I am the person who has the 1940 Ford Std. Coupe with the covered springs. I have read the comments on the V8 Club website and now I would like to respond. My car had been judged at two prior national meets yet none of the points deducted at the GA. meet had been deducted previously. While I understand that the judges vary as well as their knowledge of these cars, I do not understand the way I was treated by the deputy and chief judges. I will tell you about the covered springs first. The deputy judge came to me with the scoring sheets (after the car was judged) with 12 points deducted for the covered springs. I had tried to show him an email that I had from the person who is writing on the new ‘40 Ford book, Mike Kubarth. He (the Deputy Judge) obviously did not want to hear about anything I had to say. His only words were “do you want to talk to the Chief Judge”? I replied that “yes, I would like to discuss this with him”. After waiting about 45 minutes the Chief Judge came by to (I thought), actually converse with me. It was more than obvious he his angry from the start of the conversation. What he said first was “I am just going to take half of the points (6) and you have your Dearborn so why worry about the points”? I tried to explain to him that the Dearborn was important to me but the points were most important to me. I have tried and continue to try to “perfect” my restoration. I attempted to show him the email that I had received previously from Mike Kubarth that provided proof that covered springs for a 1940 Ford Std. coupe was a dealer installed option. His answer back to me was and (I quote) “Mike Kubarth does not know as much as he thinks and he is not God” (end quote). He asked if I now have the original bill of sale from the dealer in 1940 that showed that the dealer installed covered springs on my car. I had other questions but I was so disenchanted / disgusted with the Chief Judge’s attitude and rudeness I did not feel compelled to continue the conversation. I felt strongly that the only thing he wanted me to do was just sign the form so he could leave. It is a shame that the owners spend so much time, research and money on their cars, not to mention the (Meet) trips that you cannot spend a few minutes with a judge that is actually interested in your judging sheets or the owner. It is not fair nor business like. I can accept the fact there will always be different opinions; however, there is no place for rude behavior. These folks represent the club. Is that what we as a club want or deserve? I would suggest to others in a similar situation: DON’T SIGN THE SHEEET SIMPLY BECAUSE THE CHIEF JUDGE IS EAGER TO MOVE ON. My other deductions were: Gloss paint on frame - 4 points. In the 1940 Restoration Book 1st edition on page 4-1 it states semi-gloss black, then on page 4-1 in the 1940 Restoration Book 3rd edition it states gloss black or very slightly modified gloss black. Finally, the V8 club judging instruction sheet (page 5 of 7) reads “Frame should be painted black”. Gloss paint underbody - 5 points. It is clearly stated that underbodies of cars were painted anybody color, not necessarily matching OR on occasion left in primer. One judge told me to drive the car and get dust underneath the car before driving it on to the concourse, we wax underneath the car just like waxing the hood, then the judge told me to take soap and water and wash the wax off. My wife purchased a Toyota Avalon off the show room floor and underneath the car was as clean as the top of the car. When I think of a show car I am thinking of a car that is or could be on the show floor at the dealer’s showroom. I would want it as clean as possible and I think the dealer’s showroom is like having in on the concourse. I lost 3 points for not having three condensers for the radio yet the 1940 Restoration Book on page 5-14 states “Add condensers only as necessary to reduce noise” my radio plays great. I lost 1 point for not having the engine crank extension rod. According to Lin Stacey, the Club’s tool advisor this was an option and as such was not required in a 1940 Ford. While I will continue to be an active member in our Club, I will hope the choice of future judges will be more closely scrutinized; especially the judge’s that come in to close contact with the owners. I can only imagine the negative impact this experience would have had on a new / young member.

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