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EFV-8 Club Forum / Light Commercial Truck Discussion / 2 brake questions

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Discussion Topic: 2 brake questions -- page: 1 2 3

jyakel

05-27-2015 @ 6:11 PM

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Gentlemen,
Two quick questions regarding brakes.
1. I re-did the brakes on my '49 Ford F-3 last summer/fall 2014. I installed new wheel cylinders on all four wheels (wheel cylinders from Dennis Carpenter). I installed new rubber brakes hoses (all three). I took apart the master cylinder and cleaned it thoroughly. I took a dental tool and cleaned all the little relief holes. I had the front brake shoes re-lined. The back brake shoes had plenty of service left on them so I did not re-line them. All the drums were turned and one drum (front right) was replaced with a new one from MAC in New York. Finally, I bled the brake system to remove air bubbles.
So, here's the 1st problem. After a long winter's rest in the barn, (the truck sat without starting or moving for approximately 5+ months) I note a leak coming from the front right brake drum and leaking on to the tire. So I take the tire and brake drum off and sure enough there is a leak from the front of the brake cylinder. Only the front brake piston is leaking. I clean it all up with alcohol and put it all back together. With my wife's help I spin the wheel and she steps on the brake. We repeat and repeat the procedure but no leak. So what just happened? Did the brake piston just 'seat' itself or what? Please advise.
2. Second question. I have no idea what the original braking ability of my truck was when it was operational and in service in the '50s and '60s. Now that I have re-done the brakes I have a solid brake peddle (not spongy at all) but leisurely braking power at best. To be fair, I have only put about 30 miles on since the brake job last fall, and in those 30 miles I only used the brakes gently and sparingly. So do the brake shoes and drums need to 'seat' or 'brake in' with use?
What is your best advice for me. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
John

ford38v8

05-27-2015 @ 6:35 PM

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John, That's a beautiful truck! If you don't trust the brakes, I'll take it off your hands purely for your safety, what do you think of that?

Seriously, I do think I can offer some advice regarding the relative efficiency of the brakes... First, unless the shoes were arced to the drums, then yes, there will be a period of break-in. Not likely you'll be able to find a shop willing to do that job these days, though, so yes, your brakes should get better the more you use them. Don't get in a hurry and ride them, and don't ask me why.

Second, new shoes today are not like the old days with asbestos. They are hard, thin, and with many metallic inclusions to prolong the "useful" life of the shoes. Unfortunate choice of words, sorry. You may be able to find an industrial friction products company to furnish the good stuff. I saw a reference to one such company in a conversation here not too long ago...

Alan

jyakel

05-28-2015 @ 5:51 AM

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Alan,
Thank you for your input. Regarding the shoes being 'arced' to the drums they were not. All I did was adjust the brakes shoes as per Ford manual procedures for brakes. (There currently is no wear on the shoes, but the 'scuffs' on them from braking seem to be centered on the shoes.)
I will take your advice and 'break in' the new brakes as I drive my F-3. (I agree, No riding the brakes. That would make no sense.)
One last side note: Not just anyone will re-line brake shoes any more. I couldn't find a shop that would do it in my locale. And, Dennis Carpenter and MAC do not carry front brake shoes for an F-3. So, I found a place in Louisville KY, Republic Diesel, they re-lined my shoes. They are a big industrial shop. They make brakes for everything, even roller coaster rides. So the technician may have given me brake shoe material that will last for the next century on my F-3. We'll see.
John

TomO

05-28-2015 @ 7:45 AM

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John,

New shoes do need a slight break in. You can do this by making several stops from about 30mph with a rest period between stops.

I would also check with the shop that relined your shoes to make sure that they knew that you did NOT have power brakes. The lining material for power brakes has a different co-efficient of friction than non-power brakes and also has different heat dissipating characteristics.

I believe that you have a defective wheel cylinder on the right front. If the warranty is over, I would get a rebuild kit and hone the cylinder to give it a crosshatch pattern. The honing will help seat the new rubber cups. Clean and lubricate the cylinder with brake fluid and put in the new rubber parts.

Tom

jyakel

05-28-2015 @ 12:15 PM

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Hi Tom,
Thanks for your comments. All of this is a learning curve for me. I should have asked the shop, Republic Diesel, what different types of brake shoe material they had. I'm sure the tech guy gave me the toughest stuff they had. So I hope I can break them in with your advice stated above.
As for the wheel cylinder leaking, it is, of course, past warranty so my recourse, as you stated, is to hone and rebuild it with new parts. I've never honed a cylinder before. I've been told don't over do it. Just a little honing is enough. True?
Advise me if you can. Always appreciated your good advice.
John
PS: This is what my brake shoes looked like when I took them off my truck. The brake pad material was gone! And the brake drum was ruined; grooved and scored beyond repair. Not able to be turned.

TomO

05-29-2015 @ 6:40 AM

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Because your wheel cylinder is new, hone it just enough to remove the glaze and give the rubber cups enough of a cross hatch pattern to seat.

I would still call Republic Diesel and ask for their recommendations on breaking in the shoes and the type of material used.

There are so many different types of material for brakes, that you should make sure that the material that you received is appropriate for your truck.

When I first replied to your question, I assumed that all 49 vehicles had switched to the Bendix type self energizing brakes, but I see from you photo of the shoe that your truck still has the Lockheed type with the fixed anchor.

These brakes require more effort to apply than the self energizing type. The other difference is that the shoe with the longest lining,is mounted on the backing plate in the front position and the shorter lining goes on the back position. With this setup, the front shoe does most of the braking when moving in a forward direction.

Also make sure that the flat side of the anchor bolts are facing each other. This should give your truck adequate brakes. Just remember that with any truck that you need more stopping room than a car.

Tom

ford38v8

05-29-2015 @ 7:33 AM

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Good catch, Tom! You have a sharp eye.

Alan

jyakel

05-30-2015 @ 5:45 AM

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Tom,
I hope you know what an asset you are to guys like me that love old cars and trucks but need some guidance and direction to get it done right. I greatly appreciate your help.
I think I have installed the new brakes according to your directions stated above, but it won't hurt to take off the front wheels and drums and check again. I'll check the position of the anchor bolts too. Although, with new brake pad material, there is precious little adjustment for the anchor bolts. Even a slight turn of the anchor bolts will cause drag on the brakes. A 1/4 turn or more will lock up the brakes. So I think I have the anchor bolts right for now. (The Ford manual says the anchor bolts can be used as a secondary adjustment as the brakes wear down.)
If I were to find out from Republic Diesel that the brake material they installed on my shoes was too tough, who would you use to re-line brake shoes? There isn't anyone in my area that does such work. Any advice?
Attached to this post is a picture of the back brakes as I disassembled the brakes. I think the anchor bolts are in the position you suggested I need for the front brakes.
I really, really, appreciate your help.
John
PS: Alan is right. You do have a sharp eye, and a head full of knowledge about all these things!

TomO

05-30-2015 @ 8:54 AM

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I am not a truck guy and all of my reference material is geared toward the car, but here is what I believe to be correct.

There are 2 different style of anchor bolts. One has an eccentric washers, round head and a flattened end with a dimple in it. This type is adjusted to ensure full contact of the shoes with the rum, when new shoes are installed.

The other style does not have the eccentric washer and one side of the head is ground flat. I believe that you have the this type from the photo that you posted and from my reference material for cars.. This type should not be adjusted, the anchor bolts should be installed with the flat sides facing each other. (3 and 9 O'clock). You photo shows one a 1 O'clock and the other at 7 O'clock.

Tom

jyakel

05-31-2015 @ 1:00 PM

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Tom,
For not being a truck guy you sure know your old Fords.

Not to confuse you but old ‘49 Ford F-3s have two different types of brakes. The front brakes are ‘double anchor-self centering’ and the back brakes are ‘double anchor’ brakes. The back brakes have the anchor bolts that can be adjusted, the fronts do not (seems strange to me). I am posting three photos of the Ford manual that references the F-3 back and front brakes.

The photo I posted in an earlier post was of the back brakes. The anchor bolts on the back brakes do have a 'cam' or 'offset' type shaft machined into the shaft. Or maybe it is the eccentric washer you referenced. I'll have to look again be to sure. But, as I rotate the anchor bolts on the back brakes they do tighten or relax the brake shoe to the drum. The 1 o'clock and 7 o'clock positions were the 'best fit' for my rear brakes shoes when I installed them. Remember I did not have the rear brake shoes re-lined. They had plenty of wear left, so I cleaned them and re-installed them. Is it possible that I may have the two anchor bolts on the back brakes reversed? Meaning the front bolt can only be used in the front position. I don’t know. Can anchor bolts be installed incorrectly?

The front brakes anchor bolts have no adjustment as you have stated. Take a look at the three photos I have attached and see if my thinking and work is correct.
Thank you Tom,
John

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