| jyakel | -- 05-27-2015 @ 6:11 PM |
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Gentlemen, Two quick questions regarding brakes. 1. I re-did the brakes on my '49 Ford F-3 last summer/fall 2014. I installed new wheel cylinders on all four wheels (wheel cylinders from Dennis Carpenter). I installed new rubber brakes hoses (all three). I took apart the master cylinder and cleaned it thoroughly. I took a dental tool and cleaned all the little relief holes. I had the front brake shoes re-lined. The back brake shoes had plenty of service left on them so I did not re-line them. All the drums were turned and one drum (front right) was replaced with a new one from MAC in New York. Finally, I bled the brake system to remove air bubbles. So, here's the 1st problem. After a long winter's rest in the barn, (the truck sat without starting or moving for approximately 5+ months) I note a leak coming from the front right brake drum and leaking on to the tire. So I take the tire and brake drum off and sure enough there is a leak from the front of the brake cylinder. Only the front brake piston is leaking. I clean it all up with alcohol and put it all back together. With my wife's help I spin the wheel and she steps on the brake. We repeat and repeat the procedure but no leak. So what just happened? Did the brake piston just 'seat' itself or what? Please advise. 2. Second question. I have no idea what the original braking ability of my truck was when it was operational and in service in the '50s and '60s. Now that I have re-done the brakes I have a solid brake peddle (not spongy at all) but leisurely braking power at best. To be fair, I have only put about 30 miles on since the brake job last fall, and in those 30 miles I only used the brakes gently and sparingly. So do the brake shoes and drums need to 'seat' or 'brake in' with use? What is your best advice for me. Any help will be greatly appreciated. John
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| ford38v8 | -- 05-27-2015 @ 6:35 PM |
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John, That's a beautiful truck! If you don't trust the brakes, I'll take it off your hands purely for your safety, what do you think of that? Seriously, I do think I can offer some advice regarding the relative efficiency of the brakes... First, unless the shoes were arced to the drums, then yes, there will be a period of break-in. Not likely you'll be able to find a shop willing to do that job these days, though, so yes, your brakes should get better the more you use them. Don't get in a hurry and ride them, and don't ask me why. Second, new shoes today are not like the old days with asbestos. They are hard, thin, and with many metallic inclusions to prolong the "useful" life of the shoes. Unfortunate choice of words, sorry. You may be able to find an industrial friction products company to furnish the good stuff. I saw a reference to one such company in a conversation here not too long ago... Alan
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| jyakel | -- 05-28-2015 @ 5:51 AM |
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Alan, Thank you for your input. Regarding the shoes being 'arced' to the drums they were not. All I did was adjust the brakes shoes as per Ford manual procedures for brakes. (There currently is no wear on the shoes, but the 'scuffs' on them from braking seem to be centered on the shoes.) I will take your advice and 'break in' the new brakes as I drive my F-3. (I agree, No riding the brakes. That would make no sense.) One last side note: Not just anyone will re-line brake shoes any more. I couldn't find a shop that would do it in my locale. And, Dennis Carpenter and MAC do not carry front brake shoes for an F-3. So, I found a place in Louisville KY, Republic Diesel, they re-lined my shoes. They are a big industrial shop. They make brakes for everything, even roller coaster rides. So the technician may have given me brake shoe material that will last for the next century on my F-3. We'll see. John
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| TomO | -- 05-28-2015 @ 7:45 AM |
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John, New shoes do need a slight break in. You can do this by making several stops from about 30mph with a rest period between stops. I would also check with the shop that relined your shoes to make sure that they knew that you did NOT have power brakes. The lining material for power brakes has a different co-efficient of friction than non-power brakes and also has different heat dissipating characteristics. I believe that you have a defective wheel cylinder on the right front. If the warranty is over, I would get a rebuild kit and hone the cylinder to give it a crosshatch pattern. The honing will help seat the new rubber cups. Clean and lubricate the cylinder with brake fluid and put in the new rubber parts. Tom
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| jyakel | -- 05-28-2015 @ 12:15 PM |
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Hi Tom, Thanks for your comments. All of this is a learning curve for me. I should have asked the shop, Republic Diesel, what different types of brake shoe material they had. I'm sure the tech guy gave me the toughest stuff they had. So I hope I can break them in with your advice stated above. As for the wheel cylinder leaking, it is, of course, past warranty so my recourse, as you stated, is to hone and rebuild it with new parts. I've never honed a cylinder before. I've been told don't over do it. Just a little honing is enough. True? Advise me if you can. Always appreciated your good advice. John PS: This is what my brake shoes looked like when I took them off my truck. The brake pad material was gone! And the brake drum was ruined; grooved and scored beyond repair. Not able to be turned.
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| TomO | -- 05-29-2015 @ 6:40 AM |
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Because your wheel cylinder is new, hone it just enough to remove the glaze and give the rubber cups enough of a cross hatch pattern to seat. I would still call Republic Diesel and ask for their recommendations on breaking in the shoes and the type of material used. There are so many different types of material for brakes, that you should make sure that the material that you received is appropriate for your truck. When I first replied to your question, I assumed that all 49 vehicles had switched to the Bendix type self energizing brakes, but I see from you photo of the shoe that your truck still has the Lockheed type with the fixed anchor. These brakes require more effort to apply than the self energizing type. The other difference is that the shoe with the longest lining,is mounted on the backing plate in the front position and the shorter lining goes on the back position. With this setup, the front shoe does most of the braking when moving in a forward direction. Also make sure that the flat side of the anchor bolts are facing each other. This should give your truck adequate brakes. Just remember that with any truck that you need more stopping room than a car. Tom
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| ford38v8 | -- 05-29-2015 @ 7:33 AM |
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Good catch, Tom! You have a sharp eye. Alan
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| jyakel | -- 05-30-2015 @ 5:45 AM |
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Tom, I hope you know what an asset you are to guys like me that love old cars and trucks but need some guidance and direction to get it done right. I greatly appreciate your help. I think I have installed the new brakes according to your directions stated above, but it won't hurt to take off the front wheels and drums and check again. I'll check the position of the anchor bolts too. Although, with new brake pad material, there is precious little adjustment for the anchor bolts. Even a slight turn of the anchor bolts will cause drag on the brakes. A 1/4 turn or more will lock up the brakes. So I think I have the anchor bolts right for now. (The Ford manual says the anchor bolts can be used as a secondary adjustment as the brakes wear down.) If I were to find out from Republic Diesel that the brake material they installed on my shoes was too tough, who would you use to re-line brake shoes? There isn't anyone in my area that does such work. Any advice? Attached to this post is a picture of the back brakes as I disassembled the brakes. I think the anchor bolts are in the position you suggested I need for the front brakes. I really, really, appreciate your help. John PS: Alan is right. You do have a sharp eye, and a head full of knowledge about all these things!
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| TomO | -- 05-30-2015 @ 8:54 AM |
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I am not a truck guy and all of my reference material is geared toward the car, but here is what I believe to be correct. There are 2 different style of anchor bolts. One has an eccentric washers, round head and a flattened end with a dimple in it. This type is adjusted to ensure full contact of the shoes with the rum, when new shoes are installed. The other style does not have the eccentric washer and one side of the head is ground flat. I believe that you have the this type from the photo that you posted and from my reference material for cars.. This type should not be adjusted, the anchor bolts should be installed with the flat sides facing each other. (3 and 9 O'clock). You photo shows one a 1 O'clock and the other at 7 O'clock. Tom
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| jyakel | -- 05-31-2015 @ 1:00 PM |
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Tom, For not being a truck guy you sure know your old Fords. Not to confuse you but old ‘49 Ford F-3s have two different types of brakes. The front brakes are ‘double anchor-self centering’ and the back brakes are ‘double anchor’ brakes. The back brakes have the anchor bolts that can be adjusted, the fronts do not (seems strange to me). I am posting three photos of the Ford manual that references the F-3 back and front brakes. The photo I posted in an earlier post was of the back brakes. The anchor bolts on the back brakes do have a 'cam' or 'offset' type shaft machined into the shaft. Or maybe it is the eccentric washer you referenced. I'll have to look again be to sure. But, as I rotate the anchor bolts on the back brakes they do tighten or relax the brake shoe to the drum. The 1 o'clock and 7 o'clock positions were the 'best fit' for my rear brakes shoes when I installed them. Remember I did not have the rear brake shoes re-lined. They had plenty of wear left, so I cleaned them and re-installed them. Is it possible that I may have the two anchor bolts on the back brakes reversed? Meaning the front bolt can only be used in the front position. I don’t know. Can anchor bolts be installed incorrectly? The front brakes anchor bolts have no adjustment as you have stated. Take a look at the three photos I have attached and see if my thinking and work is correct. Thank you Tom, John
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| jyakel | -- 05-31-2015 @ 1:01 PM |
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Tom Here is the second brake photo John
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| jyakel | -- 05-31-2015 @ 1:03 PM |
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Tom, Here is the third brake photo John PS: Note the rotation arrows for adjustment of the anchor bolts in this photo.
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| TomO | -- 05-31-2015 @ 6:39 PM |
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John, Thanks for the lesson, I am glad to learn new things. The cars did not have this arrangement, they have the same set up front and back. The anchor bolts with the eccentric cam on the cars can be placed in either position. The bolts have a dimple on the side with the nut to indicate the high side of the eccentric and these dimples should be toward each other as the initial installation. They are then rotated to get the minimum clearance at the bottom of the shoe. There is no slot for the feeler gauge adjustment in the drum. If you start with the eccentric in the wrong place, you can end up with incorrect shoe clearance at the heel of the shoe and still get your feeler gauge setting. Tom
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| jyakel | -- 06-01-2015 @ 4:36 AM |
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Tom, Far be it for me to give you a lesson. I learn so much from your responses. I am very grateful for you sharing your expertise. If you state that one can have the eccentric anchor bolts backwards then that is worth me checking again on my truck. It simply should stop better than it does. If I wanted to get the front shoes re-line (again) do you have a source for such work that you would recommend? Thanks for all your help Tom. John
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| len47merc | -- 06-01-2015 @ 7:00 AM |
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jyakel - like Tom I am car-focused and not truck, so I am weighing-in here only with some experience on new brakes and braking ability. Like you, I went through the brakes completely, including lines, junction blocks, etc., new everything, before placing my driver on the road after it sitting idled for several decades. I also turned the front two drums due to (minor) scoring but I did NOT have the new shoes re-arc'd to the new inner radius of the front drums. Excited to put the car on the road I was stunned to see how poorly the brakes worked. Strong, firm pedal but I had to step on the pedal very, very hard to stop. Pulled the front brakes apart after 20 miles and found only 1.5-2 inches in the center of the properly adjusted front shoes were making contact with the drums. After several break-in runs (using the method Tom described) on safe country roads the braking continuously improved and now after 3,000 miles or so the brakes are working (almost) as designed - could easily lock-up the front wheels if needed though I've never tried. I say 'almost' as now when examining the front shoes approximately 90% of the shoes are making contact with the drums with about 1/2" to 3/4" at the top and bottom of each shoe still not showing contact with the drum. Recommend moving forward you have the shoes properly machined (if you can find a source to perform the service) to match the ID of your turned drums. If not, Tom's process will work (big initial improvement for me but a lot of additional driving required to achieve perceived full braking power). With new shoes on turned drums it takes more than a bit of driving/use to achieve a full seating of the shoes and their complete contact with the drum. In hindsight, had I asked more questions, listened more and taken the advice received from this forum at the time instead of for me being impatient I would have made the decision to bite the bullet and go with new drums to avoid this all together. Or at minimum for me the original drums would not have been turned. Steve
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| TomO | -- 06-01-2015 @ 8:23 AM |
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John, Everybody can learn from others as long as they are willing to listen. I have learned many things on this forum and have appreciated being informed when I am incorrect in anything that I post. I have not had shoes relined since 1992 and that company no longer does it. I don't work on other peoples cars any more, I stopped doing that over 15 yeas ago, so I am not current on vendors. The shop that you selected seems to have a good reputation, so I would continue to work with them. If you are not satisfied with the response that you get from them, Fort Wayne Clutch and Driveline has a good reputation on service with their clutches and the website say that they do some brake work, you could contact them. Unless your drums were turned more than .050 the shoes should seat without having the shoes re-arced. Tom
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| len47merc | -- 06-01-2015 @ 9:10 AM |
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To Tom's point, my drums were turned well over .050" and I would have benefited greatly by having the shoes worked/re-arc'd by a qualified source as yours or FWC&D, or just purchasing new drums. Just did not listen and was too anxious at the time... Steve
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| jyakel | -- 06-01-2015 @ 1:47 PM |
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Steve and Tom, You guys are great. Steve, your brake experience sounds exactly like my current situation. I should pull my brake drums off and see how much brake shoe is really making contact with the drums. My guess is precious little right now. I live in a rural area so I have plenty of country roads to 'break in' my brakes. Unfortunately, I sure don't know of a place that would arc my shoes to my drums. So, I guess I'll have to do it the old fashioned way and drive the brakes easily until they break in. I am very glad to hear Steve that your brakes are now very effective. I could never lock up my brakes right now. Just not enough braking power. As per Tom's suggestion I am going to check the anchor bolts and the position of the 'dimples'. If I have even one set of anchor bolts backwards that would have a huge effect on my braking I would think. When I had my drums turned I never thought to ask the shop how much they took off, .050 more or less, no idea. (This learning curve gets steeper all the time.) I'll do some more brake checking and a little more driving and report back to you. Thank you Steve and Tom. John PS: Tom, thanks for the Fort Wayne Clutch and Drivetrain lead. I'm going to look them up on the Internet just for fun.
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| jyakel | -- 06-01-2015 @ 4:07 PM |
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Tom and Steve, Dimple report. Upon my re-inspection, I found all was correct with the installation of the rear brake anchor pins. Look at this photo attached and you'll see the dimples are facing in as they should be. Thanks for the suggestion to check my dimples. John
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| TomO | -- 06-02-2015 @ 6:25 AM |
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Most shops will not take of more than .050. The drums from the 50's and later are much thinner and will not dissipate the heat causing catastrophic brake fade. The Ford drums should also be kept to that measurement. Tom
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| len47merc | -- 06-02-2015 @ 12:25 PM |
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My wording may have been a bit confusing and incomplete - the wear on the original drums plus any turning the single, prior owner had performed had resulted in an ~0.039" increase in the drum ID from the original specification, this before taking ownership in 2013. The local shop working on my drums requested my authorization to turn the drums ~0.025" to remove scoring and restore concentricity (thus ~0.64" total from the original spec). They provided their experienced assessment (not recommendation) that given the bulkiness and overall favorable condition of the drums that they could handle this total level of turning and I agreed at the time (even though they were 66+ years old). Still wish now in retrospect I had not turned them and used them as is (with shoe machining to match RoC) or as stated above simply went with new drums and avoided the lengthy break-in headache. Steve
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| jyakel | -- 06-03-2015 @ 4:54 AM |
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Tom and Steve, Thank you for sharing your experiences and expertise. I guess I'm on course for a somewhat lengthy brake break-in period until the shoes 'seat' with enough surface area to stop my truck with confidence as needed. (By the way, the emergency brake works and holds just fine.) Any other words of wisdom please send them my way. I really appreciated your responses. John
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| jyakel | -- 06-05-2015 @ 5:12 AM |
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Tom and Steve, Just a final thought here, what would happen if I took my Craftsman belt sander and sanded and 'shaped' my front brakes shoes just a little? After doing some reading on the Internet about 'arcing' it sounds like that's all arcing is doing is shaping the shoes to the drums. All the arcing sites say the brake shoe should contact the drum in the center of the brake shoe. Clearly, my brake shoes do not contact the drum in the center of the shoe at present. Any reason why I couldn't shape them a little myself? Please advise. John
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| len47merc | -- 06-05-2015 @ 6:42 AM |
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IMHO it would be darned near impossible to use a belt sander and your eyes to adequately match the RoC of the drum and be perfectly flat across the shoe. Again IMHO you would likely end up with high and low spots and an uneven surface that will end up increasing spotted heat, cause glazing and then you'll be squeaking like a nest of mice. If you try let us know how your process works and the results achieved. Btw - Fort Wayne Clutch recommended Brake Materials and Parts in Fort Wayne, (260) 426-3331 - ask for Scott. I called him and they will fabricate on your shoes new braking surfaces that will match the RoC of your drums. Be interested to hear your results if you try shaping them yourself. Steve
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| jyakel | -- 06-06-2015 @ 4:42 AM |
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Steve, I really appreciate the contact info for Fort Wayne Clutch and Brake. I'll give Scott a call and ask his advice on my current brake situation. As I drive my F-3 I am noticing that the brakes are getting a little better. I hope it's not just my imagination or my 'wishing it would be so'. I may still pull a wheel and brake drum off and see where the wear (scuffing) is on the brake shoe and see if I can 'dress' it just a little bit. I'll let you know my results. All of this is a learning curve for me. John
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| len47merc | -- 06-06-2015 @ 5:11 AM |
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You're welcome. Keep in mind if you try to dress your shoes yourself where the initial wear points you find are and where the pivot points of the shoes are (bottom). I bring this up because I misspoke earlier - the only place my front shoes were making contact with the drums originally was about 1.5"-2" of the bottom of the shoes nearest the pivot points, not the middle, and as they've broken-in the wear has progressed up the shoes. My memory failed me there a bit and when removing the front hubs/drums yesterday I saw the wear pattern and wanted to correct that today. Beyond the physical & mechanical aspects of your 'dressing' task it may not be as intuitive as you may think to reshape the shoes to fit your turned drums. Suggest you give the brakes' geometry and function a lot of thought before you start your process. Steve
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| jyakel | -- 06-09-2015 @ 4:22 AM |
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Steve, I haven't gotten around to attempting to 'dress' the brake shoes yet. My next day off is Saturday and that day is already full of 'to do' items. And to be perfectly honest, you have me a little scared to try 'dressing' my shoes in the first place. I may send you a picture of what I find (brake shoe scuffing) when I take the brake drum off. That way I have a 'before' and 'after' if I choose to proceed. Thank you for the cautions. John PS: I agree, the brake shoe/drum geometry is challenging and any 'dressing' must be done right the first time.
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