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Discussion Topic:
Accessories on the Concourse
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kubes40 |
10-11-2009 @ 4:23 PM
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Senior
Posts: 3394
Joined: Oct 2009
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Ken, As always you offer thoughtful and thought provoking insights. I will chance my opinion (reply) here for what it is worth. As you know, I am a '40 guy first and foremost so my opinions / thoughts are swayed in that direction. In a 'nutshell': As far as accessories go in regard to authenticity: The car is supposed to be judged (according to the Club rules) as to how it left the factory. That being the case, if an accessory was not available at the time the car was built, that particular car should not 'wear' that accessory. That goes for any other 'standard' part as well. Case in point: The 'swan neck' mirrors... the RIGHT side was not offered until approximately March of 1940. If your vehicle was built we'll say in November, 1939, there no chance the right side mirror was available at time of manufacture. My opinion? Point deduction. If it were okay (concourse acceptable) to utilize accessories and / or parts from a later date (think manufacturing changes) then in theory any part purchased at a later date would be acceptable. Example? How about a glass filter fuel pump? Hey, a fellow could go to the dealer and get one ... must be okay right? Maybe a better example... two diameters of generator pulleys were utilized in 1940. PROBLEM is the small diameter pulley was not put in to production until very late in the production year. Most likely a fellow would have purchased a replacement generator at the dealership having the 'new' small diameter pulley. Concourse correct on earlier cars? Not in my opinion. To address your question as to the determination of dates (VIN #) and what is correct for that particular vehicle: This is a very difficult thing to do precisely as there is very rarely any documentation available as to when a particular vehicle was in fact built. That being the case, I think (my opinion) we as judges must allow a 'window of time' when determining whether or not a certain item should be allowed as correct. Here too is a standard that (again, my opinion) the judging standards committee must determine. Personally? I think it prudent to say that (example) a 1940 Ford with early ash trays, glass dates of December, 1939 would NOT be allowed as correct a right hand outer mirror. Now, to confuse matters: One must (should?) factor in the possibility that the car stood on the dealers lot for a certain length of time. How long is the question without a definitive answer. If a car was built in January and sat on the lot until March, perhaps the dealer did in fact receive the right hand mirrors and put one on the car. If the car was built in October, 1939, unlikely it (the car) sat on a dealer lot for 5 - 6 months. See how this is a difficult 'call'? As far as over (and under) restorations... again, only my opinion... It is from personal experience difficult (impossible) to restore a car to exactly how it left the factory assembly line. Once a car is restored it is by definition less than a 1000 points. It will NEVER be the same as the day it left the factory. This is the main reason I do not argue when my restorations reach only 998 / 999. I know I have not duplicated the assembly line. In fact, my restorations are far above and beyond (over restored) the 'factory' car. Should deductions be made for over restorations? Here too is an area most likely better left for the judging standards committee. I believe all 1940 Fords should be judged to a 'standard'. That being how they would have left the factory. More precisely, how they were INTENDED to leave the factory. We all know that (as an example) if the production line ran short of cadmium bolts for a certain place, they would have certainly have substituted raven finish bolts until the next batch of cadmium were delivered. Yes, how true... HOWEVER, the raven bolts were not INTENDED to be placed there. If the Club allows exceptions as I made note of above then in theory nearly anything goes. I feel strongly there MUST be a STANDARD to judge against.
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ford38v8 |
10-11-2009 @ 3:47 PM
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Senior
Posts: 2758
Joined: Oct 2009
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Ken, None of the Club's published books can ever be considered "The Last Word" on the correctness of items in question on the Concourse. The books are as correct as is possible at publication, but as has been demonstrated many times, evidence to the contrary has surfaced post publication. As to an exact date of availability of any accessory, it would of course depend on the stock on hand at the dealership at which the car was first sold. This would imply in a broad sense that a car might possibly have been fitted with an obsolete accessory, but not one from a later model year. In practice, a questionable item on the Concourse is always the responsibility of the owner to present documentation as to the authenticity of that item. An accessory brochure, therefore, may be sufficient documentation to allow an item, but not to be used to discredit the authenticity of an item that did not appear in that brochure. This may all sound like doubletalk, I know, and we all wish our cars to be as correct as possible, but the fact remains that there are more questions on correctness than there are definitive answers, which in any case, would apply only to the assembly plant and dealership of origin. Our Concourse, as well as every other Concourse, has always been the best source of information regarding what is correct or not. Every Judge and Deputy Judge has learned from what he/she has observed on the Concourse. The Chief Judge is the final arbiter of questions on the Concourse, and our Judging Standards Committee rules on recurring questions. It is the ongoing policy of the Club to rule in favor of an owner in the absence of positive knowledge to the contrary. A Judge who "doesn't think" something is correct then, is overruled. My answer may appear permissive of anything you want to install on your car, but only in the sense that there is limited time available for judging each car, and serial numbers are not usually checked in my experience. If you don't have the documentation to show a sharp Judge, however, a questionable item can cost you points.
Alan
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kenburke |
10-11-2009 @ 10:51 AM
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New Member
Posts: 141
Joined: Oct 2009
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You have a car, it has a VIN, someone added an accessory. This item would have gone on the car at the dealership or after. So what time frame after purchase/delivery is OK/wrong for any accessory? If you have an earlier production car, everything is good? This is knowing there is no available purchase contract in hand. On page 1-5 of the 40 Resto Book, it is short a sweet. Oh on Page 1-1, "Condition" states some good standards to follow. On the third to last para, on avoid..., I guess indicates somewhere between excessive to acceptable. So there are several crystal clear answers on this. The list of items and when they became available might help on this for future use, and that pictured sales brochure is of help. The new Forum is good. Did not have a problem with the old. Spell chaeck would be great! I have a 40.
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