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EFV-8 Club Forum / General Ford Discussion / Accessories on the Concourse

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Posted By Discussion Topic: Accessories on the Concourse -- page: 1 2 3     39 Ken 10-14-2009 @ 4:19 AM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 380 Joined: Oct 2009 Roy, Thank you for the very concise and informative reply about the 'white wall tire' issue. I think that many of our members are unaware of these kinds of issues and in the absense of written, in hand documentation, the place to discuss them is right here on the Forum. Perhaps the Chief Judge could, from time to time, come on board here on the Forum and introduce a 'vague' issue to inform the membership of the issue and enlighten us all. Thanks again. Ken Roy Nacewicz 10-13-2009 @ 10:53 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 16 Joined: Oct 2009 Ken, this is not a new issue, it is simply one that flares up from time to time. Simply put, there is overwhelming evidence (documentation) that white wall tires became unavailable in or before August of 1941 and remained so until April of 1947 when war time demands on certain materials started to ease. As a result, vehicles built during this time frame would not have been equipped with white wall tires. The documentation of this condition was discovered many years ago in what is now called the Benson Ford Research Center in Dearborn, (the “Archives”) and still exists there to this day. Copies of these documents have been made by researchers and have been circulated to many V-8 Club members. Further, this information was made available to the folks compiling the ’41 thru ’48 book and is referenced in the introduction and documented in appendix D, pages 2 and 4. Despite this overwhelming evidence of the non existence of white side wall tires in the above referenced time frame, many restorers choose to install white wall tires on vehicles that could not have come so equipped. This, of course, is their right to do, as is anything else they may choose to do with their vehicles. However, these folks proceed at their own peril. On the concourse, a Deputy Judge is obligated to make a call when such a condition exists, as he is with any other feature that is incorrect on any vehicle being point judged. From time to time, when the call is made, there is a great deal of resistance from the proud owners of these affected vehicles. Rulings from higher authority are often called for and in many instances the deputies and their teams are subjected to less than friendly reception. Ken, it is felt by many, myself included, that such calls could be made on a much more “friendly” basis if the JSC would simply incorporate a ruling on this issue as they have done with single and double side white walls as well as Ford script tires for earlier vehicles. Once incorporated in the Judges Instruction Presentation which is shown during the “mandatory” participants meeting prior to the concourse, the “surprise” factor, real or imagined, would then be removed from the Deputy’s consultation with the vehicle owner/representative upon completion of the judging of the vehicle. As mentioned in my previous post, there are a number of things about our beloved Fords that some may wish were not true, but on the concourse, right is right and wrong is wrong….at least to the best of our knowledge base at the time. From my perspective, I have always been thankful that our cars cannot talk….for if they could, I believe we would all be embarrassed by what we do not know and/or the things we believe we do know. Respectfully, Roy Nacewicz kubes40 10-13-2009 @ 7:57 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 3394 Joined: Oct 2009 Roy, I am in agreement with you in regard to how the car was delivered to the first buyer vs. (as I stated) how it left the factory. My statement was meant to convey what you had posted. Unfortunately I did not do a very good job of it. To reiterate (and make clear) my opinion: The car should be judged as to how it was delivered to the first purchaser. 39 Ken 10-13-2009 @ 5:30 AM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 380 Joined: Oct 2009 Roy, Could you elaborate on the "White Wall" discussion and Mr. Browns discovery. It seems that many of us are in the dark about this 'new' issue. Thanks, Ken Roy Nacewicz 10-12-2009 @ 9:16 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 16 Joined: Oct 2009 I suspect the white wall issue will be addressed shortly and the rules regarding tires amended accordingly. There was more than ample arm waving and discussion both in Windsor and Auburn on the subject and as a result, the JSC cannot simply ignore this issue. The documentation was discovered years ago. The late Mr. Brown thought this to be so important that he specifically mentioned this in the forward of the Club's '41 to '48 book. Like most of us, Mr Brown realized that there are many things we wish did not exist, and this may be one of them, but the evidence is overwhelming. Although some folks may decide to over look the facts in favor of what they believe to be better, (and that is certainly their right) the National, none the less, owes its membership the courtesy of disseminating the truth, especially when it is as basic and straight forward as this. If the "book" was not strong enough to convince the restorers of these vehicles of the truth, then the JSC must stop the bleeding suffered by the Deputy Judges who are merely calling the obvious. (JMHO) Respectfully, Roy Nacewicz ford38v8 10-12-2009 @ 6:33 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 2758 Joined: Oct 2009 Ken, In answer to your question regarding a "Judges consensus Rule book", I'll have to say no, there isn't. The Deputy Judges take direction from the Chief Judge, who in turn is obliged to enforce the rulings of the Judges Standard Committee. This Committee is independent of the officers of the Club, to avoid a possible conflict of interest or of authority. The Chief Judge has discretion to make rulings on the Concourse in the absence of a ruling laid down by the Committee, although in some cases there may be a discussion and opinions offered by Committee Representatives on the Field. The tried and true Judging forms available to anyone are to be found on this website under "Forms", and are admittedly very sketchy. This has been found to be an advantage rather than a disadvantage, in that the known facts about any one single model would be overwhelming to pore through on the Field, let alone the many different models and model years. Then, of course, as stated previously, the state of what is known about how our cars were built is dynamic, meaning that we learn more obscure details on a continuing basis. On the question of purchasing an accessory at a later date, that accessory would of course be acceptable on the Concourse, providing that it were of the correct vintage and installed properly. Again, though, as Kubes40 has pointed out, a car with known "Early" (I hate that word) characteristics, particularly window bugs, would and should be penalized for an accessory or feature known to become available only late in the production year. I do certainly agree with Roy also, for the reasons he stated, as well as the known fact that some accessories were only to be installed at the Dealerships. On shortages and what left the Showroom Floor, I have yet to see a 1946 or 1947 on the Concourse with a 2x4 bumper, yet there seems to be no end to Whitewalls on '46 models. Alan supereal 10-12-2009 @ 3:29 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 6819 Joined: Oct 2009 I converted to Firefox, too, Tom, and you are right about the advantages. The new format seems a bit cumbersome until you use it a bit. Confining the posts to only ten per page does require more manipulation, but if it prevents the spam problems, it will be worth it. TomO 10-12-2009 @ 6:52 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 7250 Joined: Oct 2009 Ken, There are a couple of options for spell check if you are using a Windows operating system. One is to use Mozilla Firefox instead of Internet Explorer, another is to download the Google Tool bar. Mozilla Firefox has spell check active at all times, Google Tool bar requires that you click on the spell check icon to check your spelling. I would rather see the Administrator spend time adding the navigation tools for the Forum at the bottom of the last post to reduce wear on the scroll wheel on my mouse. Tom kenburke 10-11-2009 @ 10:15 PM reply profile send p.m. New Member Posts: 141 Joined: Oct 2009 Thanks Alan & Mike. I have a hot water heater that I am pretty sure is up to snuff. I also took off my hinge pin mirrors and put the swan neck ones on (Drake repros). In reality the passenger side mirror is not functional at all from the driver side. So who needs it? (That was not a for sale comment.)So, Mike I am squared away on that one. Especially since my car's VIN is in the first third of the production run. I also have some old license frames as seen in the brochure, locking gas cap and a visor mirror. The Ford accessories to me are not flashy nor over done, but nice items for the car. So I am trying to place some logic in making the car correct and adding the few accessory items that were available back when. But here is my thought, the premiss is that the car was not ordered from the factory by its future owner but off the show room floor. So there is this brochure or display at the dealership. If one bought the car, came back months later to get an extra item, your SOL, by today's standards? I guess you need to put your foot down somewhere. Alan (I hate to ask this) is there a judge's consensus rule book to capture all of this knowledge? Anyway, I can see being a judge can have its exciting moments. Thanks again. I was not joking about spell check. Roy Nacewicz 10-11-2009 @ 8:01 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 16 Joined: Oct 2009 Mike, I believe you want to include, or at a minimum, consider, the other proviso that is implied in the current standards which speaks to the way a vehicle was delivered to the first retail customer. If the standard is limited to "how it left the factory", one might encounter a vehicle with the hub caps, floor mat, and certain accessories, etc laying in the trunk uninstalled. I fully understand that this could lead to a very slippery slope but I doubt many would want to restore their vehicle "as it left the factory". In addition, although there may not have been significant "shortages" during the 1940 model run, there were some in the earlier V-8 years and certainly many in the immediate post war era which resulted in vehicles "leaving the factory" with cardboard windshields and without spare tires, as an example. The above is the reason for the alternative provision so stated in the judging standards. Respectively, Roy Nacewicz

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