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EFV-8 Club Forum / General Ford Discussion / Accessories on the Concourse

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Posted By Discussion Topic: Accessories on the Concourse -- page: 1 2 3     kenburke 10-11-2009 @ 10:51 AM reply profile send p.m. New Member Posts: 141 Joined: Oct 2009 You have a car, it has a VIN, someone added an accessory. This item would have gone on the car at the dealership or after. So what time frame after purchase/delivery is OK/wrong for any accessory? If you have an earlier production car, everything is good? This is knowing there is no available purchase contract in hand. On page 1-5 of the 40 Resto Book, it is short a sweet. Oh on Page 1-1, "Condition" states some good standards to follow. On the third to last para, on avoid..., I guess indicates somewhere between excessive to acceptable. So there are several crystal clear answers on this. The list of items and when they became available might help on this for future use, and that pictured sales brochure is of help. The new Forum is good. Did not have a problem with the old. Spell chaeck would be great! I have a 40. ford38v8 10-11-2009 @ 3:47 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 2758 Joined: Oct 2009 Ken, None of the Club's published books can ever be considered "The Last Word" on the correctness of items in question on the Concourse. The books are as correct as is possible at publication, but as has been demonstrated many times, evidence to the contrary has surfaced post publication. As to an exact date of availability of any accessory, it would of course depend on the stock on hand at the dealership at which the car was first sold. This would imply in a broad sense that a car might possibly have been fitted with an obsolete accessory, but not one from a later model year. In practice, a questionable item on the Concourse is always the responsibility of the owner to present documentation as to the authenticity of that item. An accessory brochure, therefore, may be sufficient documentation to allow an item, but not to be used to discredit the authenticity of an item that did not appear in that brochure. This may all sound like doubletalk, I know, and we all wish our cars to be as correct as possible, but the fact remains that there are more questions on correctness than there are definitive answers, which in any case, would apply only to the assembly plant and dealership of origin. Our Concourse, as well as every other Concourse, has always been the best source of information regarding what is correct or not. Every Judge and Deputy Judge has learned from what he/she has observed on the Concourse. The Chief Judge is the final arbiter of questions on the Concourse, and our Judging Standards Committee rules on recurring questions. It is the ongoing policy of the Club to rule in favor of an owner in the absence of positive knowledge to the contrary. A Judge who "doesn't think" something is correct then, is overruled. My answer may appear permissive of anything you want to install on your car, but only in the sense that there is limited time available for judging each car, and serial numbers are not usually checked in my experience. If you don't have the documentation to show a sharp Judge, however, a questionable item can cost you points. Alan kubes40 10-11-2009 @ 4:23 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 3394 Joined: Oct 2009 Ken, As always you offer thoughtful and thought provoking insights. I will chance my opinion (reply) here for what it is worth. As you know, I am a '40 guy first and foremost so my opinions / thoughts are swayed in that direction. In a 'nutshell': As far as accessories go in regard to authenticity: The car is supposed to be judged (according to the Club rules) as to how it left the factory. That being the case, if an accessory was not available at the time the car was built, that particular car should not 'wear' that accessory. That goes for any other 'standard' part as well. Case in point: The 'swan neck' mirrors... the RIGHT side was not offered until approximately March of 1940. If your vehicle was built we'll say in November, 1939, there no chance the right side mirror was available at time of manufacture. My opinion? Point deduction. If it were okay (concourse acceptable) to utilize accessories and / or parts from a later date (think manufacturing changes) then in theory any part purchased at a later date would be acceptable. Example? How about a glass filter fuel pump? Hey, a fellow could go to the dealer and get one ... must be okay right? Maybe a better example... two diameters of generator pulleys were utilized in 1940. PROBLEM is the small diameter pulley was not put in to production until very late in the production year. Most likely a fellow would have purchased a replacement generator at the dealership having the 'new' small diameter pulley. Concourse correct on earlier cars? Not in my opinion. To address your question as to the determination of dates (VIN #) and what is correct for that particular vehicle: This is a very difficult thing to do precisely as there is very rarely any documentation available as to when a particular vehicle was in fact built. That being the case, I think (my opinion) we as judges must allow a 'window of time' when determining whether or not a certain item should be allowed as correct. Here too is a standard that (again, my opinion) the judging standards committee must determine. Personally? I think it prudent to say that (example) a 1940 Ford with early ash trays, glass dates of December, 1939 would NOT be allowed as correct a right hand outer mirror. Now, to confuse matters: One must (should?) factor in the possibility that the car stood on the dealers lot for a certain length of time. How long is the question without a definitive answer. If a car was built in January and sat on the lot until March, perhaps the dealer did in fact receive the right hand mirrors and put one on the car. If the car was built in October, 1939, unlikely it (the car) sat on a dealer lot for 5 - 6 months. See how this is a difficult 'call'? As far as over (and under) restorations... again, only my opinion... It is from personal experience difficult (impossible) to restore a car to exactly how it left the factory assembly line. Once a car is restored it is by definition less than a 1000 points. It will NEVER be the same as the day it left the factory. This is the main reason I do not argue when my restorations reach only 998 / 999. I know I have not duplicated the assembly line. In fact, my restorations are far above and beyond (over restored) the 'factory' car. Should deductions be made for over restorations? Here too is an area most likely better left for the judging standards committee. I believe all 1940 Fords should be judged to a 'standard'. That being how they would have left the factory. More precisely, how they were INTENDED to leave the factory. We all know that (as an example) if the production line ran short of cadmium bolts for a certain place, they would have certainly have substituted raven finish bolts until the next batch of cadmium were delivered. Yes, how true... HOWEVER, the raven bolts were not INTENDED to be placed there. If the Club allows exceptions as I made note of above then in theory nearly anything goes. I feel strongly there MUST be a STANDARD to judge against. Roy Nacewicz 10-11-2009 @ 8:01 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 16 Joined: Oct 2009 Mike, I believe you want to include, or at a minimum, consider, the other proviso that is implied in the current standards which speaks to the way a vehicle was delivered to the first retail customer. If the standard is limited to "how it left the factory", one might encounter a vehicle with the hub caps, floor mat, and certain accessories, etc laying in the trunk uninstalled. I fully understand that this could lead to a very slippery slope but I doubt many would want to restore their vehicle "as it left the factory". In addition, although there may not have been significant "shortages" during the 1940 model run, there were some in the earlier V-8 years and certainly many in the immediate post war era which resulted in vehicles "leaving the factory" with cardboard windshields and without spare tires, as an example. The above is the reason for the alternative provision so stated in the judging standards. Respectively, Roy Nacewicz kenburke 10-11-2009 @ 10:15 PM reply profile send p.m. New Member Posts: 141 Joined: Oct 2009 Thanks Alan & Mike. I have a hot water heater that I am pretty sure is up to snuff. I also took off my hinge pin mirrors and put the swan neck ones on (Drake repros). In reality the passenger side mirror is not functional at all from the driver side. So who needs it? (That was not a for sale comment.)So, Mike I am squared away on that one. Especially since my car's VIN is in the first third of the production run. I also have some old license frames as seen in the brochure, locking gas cap and a visor mirror. The Ford accessories to me are not flashy nor over done, but nice items for the car. So I am trying to place some logic in making the car correct and adding the few accessory items that were available back when. But here is my thought, the premiss is that the car was not ordered from the factory by its future owner but off the show room floor. So there is this brochure or display at the dealership. If one bought the car, came back months later to get an extra item, your SOL, by today's standards? I guess you need to put your foot down somewhere. Alan (I hate to ask this) is there a judge's consensus rule book to capture all of this knowledge? Anyway, I can see being a judge can have its exciting moments. Thanks again. I was not joking about spell check. TomO 10-12-2009 @ 6:52 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 7250 Joined: Oct 2009 Ken, There are a couple of options for spell check if you are using a Windows operating system. One is to use Mozilla Firefox instead of Internet Explorer, another is to download the Google Tool bar. Mozilla Firefox has spell check active at all times, Google Tool bar requires that you click on the spell check icon to check your spelling. I would rather see the Administrator spend time adding the navigation tools for the Forum at the bottom of the last post to reduce wear on the scroll wheel on my mouse. Tom supereal 10-12-2009 @ 3:29 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 6819 Joined: Oct 2009 I converted to Firefox, too, Tom, and you are right about the advantages. The new format seems a bit cumbersome until you use it a bit. Confining the posts to only ten per page does require more manipulation, but if it prevents the spam problems, it will be worth it. ford38v8 10-12-2009 @ 6:33 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 2758 Joined: Oct 2009 Ken, In answer to your question regarding a "Judges consensus Rule book", I'll have to say no, there isn't. The Deputy Judges take direction from the Chief Judge, who in turn is obliged to enforce the rulings of the Judges Standard Committee. This Committee is independent of the officers of the Club, to avoid a possible conflict of interest or of authority. The Chief Judge has discretion to make rulings on the Concourse in the absence of a ruling laid down by the Committee, although in some cases there may be a discussion and opinions offered by Committee Representatives on the Field. The tried and true Judging forms available to anyone are to be found on this website under "Forms", and are admittedly very sketchy. This has been found to be an advantage rather than a disadvantage, in that the known facts about any one single model would be overwhelming to pore through on the Field, let alone the many different models and model years. Then, of course, as stated previously, the state of what is known about how our cars were built is dynamic, meaning that we learn more obscure details on a continuing basis. On the question of purchasing an accessory at a later date, that accessory would of course be acceptable on the Concourse, providing that it were of the correct vintage and installed properly. Again, though, as Kubes40 has pointed out, a car with known "Early" (I hate that word) characteristics, particularly window bugs, would and should be penalized for an accessory or feature known to become available only late in the production year. I do certainly agree with Roy also, for the reasons he stated, as well as the known fact that some accessories were only to be installed at the Dealerships. On shortages and what left the Showroom Floor, I have yet to see a 1946 or 1947 on the Concourse with a 2x4 bumper, yet there seems to be no end to Whitewalls on '46 models. Alan Roy Nacewicz 10-12-2009 @ 9:16 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 16 Joined: Oct 2009 I suspect the white wall issue will be addressed shortly and the rules regarding tires amended accordingly. There was more than ample arm waving and discussion both in Windsor and Auburn on the subject and as a result, the JSC cannot simply ignore this issue. The documentation was discovered years ago. The late Mr. Brown thought this to be so important that he specifically mentioned this in the forward of the Club's '41 to '48 book. Like most of us, Mr Brown realized that there are many things we wish did not exist, and this may be one of them, but the evidence is overwhelming. Although some folks may decide to over look the facts in favor of what they believe to be better, (and that is certainly their right) the National, none the less, owes its membership the courtesy of disseminating the truth, especially when it is as basic and straight forward as this. If the "book" was not strong enough to convince the restorers of these vehicles of the truth, then the JSC must stop the bleeding suffered by the Deputy Judges who are merely calling the obvious. (JMHO) Respectfully, Roy Nacewicz 39 Ken 10-13-2009 @ 5:30 AM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 380 Joined: Oct 2009 Roy, Could you elaborate on the "White Wall" discussion and Mr. Browns discovery. It seems that many of us are in the dark about this 'new' issue. Thanks, Ken

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