| RAK402 | -- 06-23-2016 @ 6:58 PM |
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Which is best? How difficult are these to acquire? What are their approximate values in working condition? Thank you all in advance.
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| TomO | -- 06-24-2016 @ 7:34 AM |
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There are many different Sun machines. Which is best depends upon what you want to do and the year of your car. The Sun distributor tester and other makes of distributor testers are much more accurate in the hands of an experienced operator than the KR Wilson timing fixtures. They are also much more expensive and harder to find in good condition. IMHO If you are just wanting to maintain your car, it is much more cost effective to send your distributor away. Maintaining a distributor tester is difficult. Some of them are battery operated, some of have mercury batteries that are no longer available and the controls are subject to corrosion if not used on a regular basis. All of these conditions make the tester unreliable. For trouble shooting purposes, you can use a tach dwell meter and a powered timing light along with a vacuum gauge. Tom
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| RAK402 | -- 06-24-2016 @ 10:19 AM |
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TomO, Thank you for the very rapid response, sir! I am still interested in obtaining one of the aforementioned machines. Very few seem to come up for sale so far (I have only been looking for a couple of weeks, so more may appear, over time). I was using the 1940 Ford as a daily driver 15 years ago, and put a lot of miles on it. My regular distributor person was very reasonable, but he has since moved away. I was fascinated by his machine (which I think was a Sun), but cannot remember. What I am seeing at present is that distributor work appears to be done on an exchange basis and is quite expensive (at least relative to what it was in the past). I would like to learn to do it myself, as much because I am interested in learning how to do it, as due to the expense.
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| DD931 | -- 06-25-2016 @ 12:11 PM |
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There are two brands to look for - Sun and Allen. They come up on eBay from time to time. Be ready to pay!!!
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| supereal | -- 07-01-2016 @ 5:34 AM |
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We have a Sun machine I bought at a car show years ago for $25. It required some repair, and we found a source in Kentucky. The advantage of this machine is the strobe feature to show if there is any point bounce or if the shaft and bushings are in good condition. The vacuum pump is nice to have, but not critical, as the snubber is usually backed clear off, anyway. If buying a machine, be sure the adapter for the Ford flathead distributor is included. We had to buy one, and paid more than the machine itself. The KRW fixture will help set the point gaps, put little else. The Sun machine is now being reproduced, but is very expensive.
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| 1935fordtn | -- 07-03-2016 @ 4:13 PM |
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I have been using my Sun Machine nearly every day for distributor rebuilds the last couple of months.. If you buy one that doesn't work, be prepared to spend some serious $$. You can buy a restored rebuilt ready to go one from MArk Suanders at Paramount. They are expensive. BTW if you plan to do Early V8 distributors you will also need a Tasco, or KRW, etc. fixture to set your initial timing with. The flathead 1932-48 adapter for the Sun Machine is harder to find than the machine itself. If I can help in any way email me at driskellracing@gmail.com
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| RAK402 | -- 07-03-2016 @ 9:29 PM |
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Gentlemen, Thank you for the responses. I have an early (wooden box) KR Wilson V-126 timing fixture on the way. From what I have been able to tell, through research, the earlier ones did not have a dwell scale. I am wondering how much of a disadvantage this will be. I have a line on a second one that is the later model (quite a bit pricier). I appreciate the advice about the expense of the Sun machines as well as that of making sure that they have the correct adapter. The hunt is on! Any other information would be greatly appreciated-especially from those who have used the KR Wilson fixture (I have read the Ford Service Bulletin instructions, but there must be a great deal more to it than that). Thank you all again!
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| 1935fordtn | -- 07-03-2016 @ 11:28 PM |
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If you have a Sun Machine, you will not need the dwell scale on the KRW fixture. While the KRW fixtures are great, they are unable to check things such as what RPM's the advance kicks in, or what RPM's the points start bouncing. I personally use a Tasco fixture but have a KRW as well in case the Tasco breaks. In my opinion forget the dwell on the fixture and set it on a machine with the distributor running. Just tonight I was building a 11A distributor. Set it up on the fixture perfectly. Moved it over to the Sun Machine and notice the points (NOS) were floating at 2280 rpm's, without a strobing machine one would have never known until it was on a car. Many will say the Allen Synchrograph is the best dizzy machine I personally would rather have a Sun as parts are slightly more available. The other good alternative is a original Heyer Machine used by Ford dealers. When you get bored check out this website..... http://paramountd.com/
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| RAK402 | -- 07-06-2016 @ 10:38 PM |
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935fordtn, I checked that website-very, very interesting. Thank you for posting the link. A restored machine does go for BIG bucks! My KR Wilson fixture is supposed to arrive tomorrow. I have ordered the manual for it. If you or anyone else who has used a KR Wilson fixture, I would greatly appreciate any incite with regard to how to use it. I have a good used distributor to use to get some kind of idea of what a good one should look like, but I would really like to get some practical info from someone who has used one.
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| TomO | -- 07-07-2016 @ 7:13 AM |
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The KRW fixture just sets the timing of the contact points. It can set the make and break times accurately and the dwell would be within specs. It will not tell you if the points are bouncing or if the cam or bushings are worn. These can be checked with a dwell meter on the car. The key to setting up a 23-48 distributor is experience and carful operation of the test equipment. Tom
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| 1935fordtn | -- 07-07-2016 @ 2:24 PM |
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I will echo exactly what Tom said. If your KRW tool does not have the dwell attachment all it will really be useful for is setting the initial timing. Even a KRW fixture that allows you to properly set the dwell, it still as Tom mentioned will not allow you to see when the points bounce/float, which is a VERY common problem with old or junk points. The only way to check that and the advance curve is on a distributor machine. Another common problem, is the advance weights "sticking". When they stick, they either do not advance, take too long to advance, or do not return to the non advance position at idle. This again could never be determined unless you have it on a machine. Before I had my sun machine, my 1940 Ford would overheat at a stop light only every once in a while and would idle too high at times. Everything looked good on a KRW and Tasco device, but once on a sun machine it was clear the weights were sticking. Feel free to send me a distributor you have done and I will run it on my machine if you wish.
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| RAK402 | -- 07-08-2016 @ 9:05 AM |
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1935fordtn, "Feel free to send me a distributor you have done and I will run it on my machine if you wish." Wow! Thank you! That is greatly appreciated!
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| ken ct. | -- 07-08-2016 @ 3:50 PM |
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If a person is very good at rebuilding these units all he needs is a feeler gauge,no need for all your fancy machines which are just bragging rites for the well heeled. OMO. ken ct.
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| RAK402 | -- 07-08-2016 @ 5:02 PM |
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Ken CT, Can you explain further, sir? Thank you. This message was edited by RAK402 on 7-8-16 @ 5:02 PM
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| ken ct. | -- 07-08-2016 @ 6:11 PM |
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Ive rebuilt dozens of them using only a feeler blade and 25 yrs experience with them. Their not rocket science if you understand how they function. ken ct.
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| RAK402 | -- 07-08-2016 @ 9:36 PM |
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Ken CT, Thank you, sir. I am just trying to accumulate as much information on the subject as I can. I have no experience with doing this and so any information is greatly appreciated. My KR Wilson fixture arrived yesterday, the instructions today, so I am studying how things work. I have a known working distributor on it now to get familiar with it-I am not touching that one. I think I have one or two more in the garage that I can use as test subjects/victims. This message was edited by RAK402 on 7-8-16 @ 9:37 PM
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| ken ct. | -- 07-08-2016 @ 10:48 PM |
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I would have saved the $$ you paid for mr. wilsons machine and it would more than paid to have it done correctly by sending it out. Either by Bubba,Charlie,ny, or myself doesen't matter who all do a fantastic job of it. Good luck ken ct. OMO
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| RAK402 | -- 07-09-2016 @ 9:25 AM |
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Ken CT, I appreciate that sir, but I want to learn how to do it myself. I want to understand how it works and really get into the detail. I don't mind the little I spent on the machine (it was pretty cheap). If I do two or three of my own distributors, it will have paid for itself and, hopefully, I will have acquired some knowledge. I saw a Sun machine in operation once about 15 years ago (with one of my distributors on it)-I was fascinated. If I can find one of those at a reasonable price and in working condition, I will grab that too. Could I trouble you to elaborate on your method of setting the points? I am interested in all perspectives. This message was edited by RAK402 on 7-9-16 @ 9:26 AM
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| ken ct. | -- 07-09-2016 @ 10:07 AM |
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My way of setting points would not help you setting them by machine so much for that. ken ct.
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| RAK402 | -- 07-09-2016 @ 2:10 PM |
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I would still be interested, if you don't mind explaining it. If it is a trade secret or would interfere with your business, I withdraw my request sir. I am just trying to learn as much as I can, from as many sources as I can.
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| 1935fordtn | -- 07-09-2016 @ 7:04 PM |
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Ken, I disagree.. While a car will run using a feeler gauge, and if you use NOS points you could likely get away with it. HOWEVER set reproduction 1932-36 Ford points with you method and then check the dwell... You'll be lucky if you get 30 degrees of total dwell . Lastly how do you know if or when the points bounce?? I set up many a distributors with a feeler gauge in the past, but once you strobe them it really sheds light on how cr*ppy some points really are. For cr*ps and giggles I set up a 40B distributor tonight using nothing but a feeler gauge. Set the points to .014. Using reproduction points (keep in mind there is only one manufacturer currently for repop points). I then strobed the dizzy on my machine.. It had 28.4 degrees total dwell!!! and the points floated at 2608 RPMS.. While a car would run like this, it would have a very weak spark and a misfire at high rpm's.
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| RAK402 | -- 07-09-2016 @ 9:02 PM |
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1935fordtn, How/ where does one get decent points? I assume the bad ones float because the springs are no good-is that correct?
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| 1935fordtn | -- 07-09-2016 @ 9:25 PM |
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In my opinion and as you can gather there will many opinions.. In terms of 1932-36 Ford points the only good ones are NOS or Old Replacements such as Aampco. We are fortunate to have plenty of NOS in stock. The reproductions are terrible... to get the proper dwell the points would be set at less than .005, and keep in mind as the rubbing block wears the point gap closes. The distance from the mounting hole to the rubbing block is off by .010" on the reproductions. In terms of late 1936-48 points they are plentiful reproduced and available. Some prefer Napa CS47, I prefer Standard FD6770. Still maybe one in every ten new sets I have found to be bad. I built and strobed 12 21A and 59A distributors this week and used FD6770 points and only found one set unusable do to floating. As far as points bouncing or floating, it is simply caused by weak spring tension or too tight of a fit to the breaker plate. Sometimes you can bend the spring to achieve a higher RPM before bouncing but I would prefer not to. I am no distributor expert and have only gotten into them seriously recently, but have learned a lot of mistake I have made in the past by setting them up by old methods. I have literally done over 50 dizzy in the last two months. Kind of fun!
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| RAK402 | -- 07-09-2016 @ 9:57 PM |
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1935fordtn, Thank you for the very detailed answer regarding good sets of points, sir. I will obtain a set of the ones you recommended (and will keep an eye out for NOS ones as well). I have had my spare distributor on the KR Wilson fixture and have been running through the instructions-comparing what I am seeing vs. what the instructions say (the distributor seems to have been set up well by the person that used to do these for me-if the fixture is any guide (and, hopefully, it is). Sorry for all the questions (but I have another)... Should the vacuum brake be backed off or removed when using the fixture? I can find no mention of this in the Ford service bulletins or the KR Wilson instructions (the photographs show the vacuum brake present). Thank you again for all of your help, sir.
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| 1935fordtn | -- 07-10-2016 @ 9:11 AM |
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On a stationary fixture like the KRW the vacuum brake will make no difference. On a strobing machine like a sun machine you would want to have the brake removed or backed off, to study how the weights are advancing and when. Vacuum brakes are a whole discussion in their own, but you should be certain they move freely in the bore. If they have too much clearance I insert a bronze bushing as then you would have a excessive vacuum leak. I run the brakes with no tension as my opinion is that in todays octane levels they are not needed. I also replace the leather tips on them.. Just curious did you buy you fixture off of eBay? if so I likely know whom you bought it from.
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| RAK402 | -- 07-10-2016 @ 2:13 PM |
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1935fordtn, Thank you for the additional information, sir. If forum names and ebay I.D.'s are the same, I purchased the KR Wilson fixture from you (I sent you a PM yesterday evening, when I discovered this). I did, incidentally, modify a protractor of the correct diameter and mounted it so that it is concentric with the center line of the fixture, so I now have a working Dwell Scale, like the later KR Wilson fixtures had (although mine does not look as nice). I have a cheap, used distributor coming from Ebay as well, so that I have something to tear down, examine, re-assemble, and time on the fixture. This message was edited by RAK402 on 7-10-16 @ 2:14 PM
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| 1935fordtn | -- 07-10-2016 @ 2:43 PM |
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No need to call me sir LOL, I just replied to your PM as well.
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| RAK402 | -- 07-18-2016 @ 7:28 PM |
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Does anyone have a source or a spec for the very small cotter pins used to retain the arms the moving points are attached to? One of the pins is damaged, but I never like to re-use cotter pins on anything anyway. I have the test distributor apart (the inexpensive one from eBay). I have pulled the center out of the distributor, examined the centrifugal advance (the weights move easily and freely, there is no dirt present, etc.). The cam moves on the distributor shaft when the weights are moved out manually. The front and rear bushings look/feel good. The points themselves look burned and the part of the arm the moving points are attached to is somewhat worn-the entire assembly will be discarded. The only concern that I have at the moment is that the vacuum brake piston seems to be somewhat loose in the bore. The leather shoe is also worn about through. I have a new piston with shoe on the way, but may be stuck if the casting is too worn as opposed to the piston (I don't know if the professionals re-sleeve these or not). I don't know how to measure this or what the spec should be in terms of fit. I don't know if light grease or heavy oil would be appropriate, if it turns out that the repro piston is also a loose fit. One other thing that I found interesting is that the guy at Pep Boys not only did not know what distributor cam grease was, he did not know what a distributor was... Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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| TomO | -- 07-19-2016 @ 7:59 AM |
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McMaster Carr may still supply the cotter pins. http://www.mcmaster.com/# There is a seller on E-Bay that sells dist. cam lube. Tom
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| ken ct. | -- 07-19-2016 @ 8:29 AM |
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If it was rebuilt properly the weights would not be sticking !!!! ken ct.
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| ken ct. | -- 07-19-2016 @ 8:42 AM |
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The cotter pins can be gotten from Walker in Ca. carb specilists. ken ct.
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| RAK402 | -- 07-19-2016 @ 12:55 PM |
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Thank you, sir!
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