| 1939ute | -- 05-23-2016 @ 5:10 PM |
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Hello all, I live in Adelaide South Australia and I've had my 1939 Ford 91A Deluxe Ute front brakes refurbished (new moulded brake linings, wheel cylinders overhauled and replaced both front brake hoses)! I've had the shoes and cylinders reassembled, both front brake hoses fitted, adjusted and bled all 4 wheels but I now have a spongy pedal! All work was done by a qualified mechanic but after many $'s spent without success, I'm wondering if anyone has any clues on what we may have overlooked or could forward an attachment of the correct brake adjusting procedures? I should add that the vehicle has only done some 500 miles since being totally restored and the reason for the work was because the front left brakes locked up! My thanks in advance! Cheers, John This message was edited by 1939ute on 5-28-16 @ 7:25 AM
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| CharlieStephens | -- 05-23-2016 @ 6:06 PM |
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Did you arc the shoes to the drums? Charlie Stephens
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| 1939ute | -- 05-23-2016 @ 10:35 PM |
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Thanks for your reply Charlie, as I said I had a qualified mechanic working on the brakes and we did discuss how we thought it should be done and while I didn't say to arc the shoes to the drums, we did talk about how we get them out snugly to the drums but I didn't stand over his shoulder while he did it! If that's what I have to do then, that's what I'll do! I'll call him back to have another chat and look at how it was done but in the meantime, I'm asking around to get it right in my head! I know that's what I should have done in the first place but I was assured that it would be and was done correctly! Cheers, John
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| MG | -- 05-23-2016 @ 10:50 PM |
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What type brake fluid are you using? Silicon?. A friend of mine recently used DOT 5 silicon brake fluid and experienced very spongy brakes.... "Silicone based fluid is more compressible than glycol based fluid, leading to spongy feeling brakes." This message was edited by MG on 5-24-16 @ 12:03 AM
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| 1939ute | -- 05-23-2016 @ 11:19 PM |
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Thanks for your reply Senior, we used Valvoline dot 4 fluid which is a low water absorption high temperature resistant disc and drum brake fluid! I do hope this is an acceptable type fluid for this application! Cheers, John This message was edited by 1939ute on 5-24-16 @ 12:07 AM
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| 40 Coupe | -- 05-24-2016 @ 3:54 AM |
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Do the mechanical adjustment and get the shoes very close to the finished adjustment before bleeding the brakes. I do not believe that Silicone brake fluid is any more compressible than DOT 3-4 but it does have the ability to trap more air in bubbles longer. For this reason a bit more care not to agitate the fluid is needed. Any of the modern brake fluids work very well DOT 3-4-5
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| 1939ute | -- 05-24-2016 @ 4:44 AM |
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Hello 40Coupe, thanks for your reply, I'm not sure about the correct brake fluid to use and I'm open minded and pleased to receive opinions! Thanks for the brake adjustment attachment, I'm sure it'll help me establish what I need do to rectify this issue! I love the old Ford V8's and I'm always learning!! Cheers, John This message was edited by 1939ute on 5-24-16 @ 5:31 AM
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| CharlieStephens | -- 05-24-2016 @ 5:40 AM |
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John, What is happening here in the states (and maybe in Australia) is that the laws regarding the dust emitted from the brake shoe arching machines are so strict that most shops have abandoned their machines rather than upgrade them. We have to get back to the company that relined the shoes or find someone that has spent the money to upgrade their equipment (few and far between). With the popularity of disc brakes that don't require and "arcing" the demand for the service is small and shops tend to tell the customer to "let the shoes wear in", not a good approach in my opinion. Charlie Stephens
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| TomO | -- 05-24-2016 @ 8:53 AM |
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You should have the mechanic measure the drums. If they are .060 or greater over size, then you need oversized linings and they will need to be arced to the drum. A spongy pedal usually means that there is still some air in the system or that the master cylinder is not performing correctly. Here is Ford's method of adjustment for the brakes. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 5-24-16 @ 8:58 AM
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| CharlieStephens | -- 05-24-2016 @ 9:09 AM |
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Tom, I would like to respectfully disagree with you . In my opinion if the drums are .060 or greater oversize they should be replaced. This becomes more true depending upon how much "greater" is. A question for John, do they have any laws in Australia about how much oversize you can turn a drum? Charlie Stephens
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| TomO | -- 05-24-2016 @ 9:21 AM |
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Charlie, you are correct. I mentioned the oversized shoes, because the wide 5 drums in good condition are very hard to find and oversized shoes will work on drums that are .060 - .075 oversized. Beyond that the brake fade can be dangerous. Tom
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| CharlieStephens | -- 05-24-2016 @ 9:31 AM |
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Tom, Thanks for the followup. Without the upper limit in your second post I had visions of .125 and more over. It is frightening what is out there. By the way John, how far oversize are your drums? Charlie Stephens
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| 1939ute | -- 05-24-2016 @ 5:11 PM |
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Thanks for all the responses to my question and I'll now try and get the answers to the questions you've asked, study the attachments that you have sent, get in touch with the company that bonded the shoes (he did take a measurement of the drums prior to starting the job and I'm sure he said they were within the tolerances to fit new shoes) and reconditioned the wheel cylinders and then get back to you all with what I've found out! I have since read up a bit on arcing and have a better understanding of the process now, thanks for that! I still have the problem of what to do about the money I've spent with no real satisfaction and how I best go about rectifying the problem! Once again thanks to you all, I'm not a mechanic so I do listen to those that are and mostly those that know about the early Fords and I'll certainly let you know how I go! Cheers, John
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| fenbach | -- 05-24-2016 @ 8:44 PM |
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charlie, could you explain "arcing the drums." and why it's important. I don't see any mention of it in the service bulletin that TomO posted. thanks. bob
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| CharlieStephens | -- 05-25-2016 @ 5:09 PM |
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Bob, Arcing the shoes (not the drums) is important because it grinds the contour of the shoe to match the drum. This grinding creates a lot of dust which makes the EPA and OSHA crazy. As a result they require the machines to be modified (and certified) to catch all of the dust, which is very expensive. Since most brakes are disc, at least in front, there isn't enough demand for machines to arc brake shoes so businesses haven't invested in upgrading their machines. If you don't arc them you will only get part of the shoe contacting the surface of the drum. They will eventually wear in to the correct arc, hopefully you haven't run into anything before they do. Charlie Stephens This message was edited by CharlieStephens on 5-25-16 @ 5:10 PM
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| 1939ute | -- 05-25-2016 @ 8:19 PM |
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Thanks for that Bob, It has better helped me to understand the process and given me something to think about! Since my last post, I've established that the drums are standard and not oversize and this weekend we (a mechanic who understands the Early Ford braking system and works on them and myself) are going to dismantle the front brakes and try to work out what isn't right and rectify it! I'll certainly post what we found and hopefully what we did to rectify the issue! Cheers, John
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| CharlieStephens | -- 05-26-2016 @ 9:52 AM |
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Remember put the long shoe on the front (http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=18&Topic=5010&keywords=long%20shoe). This is opposite from the Bendix brakes so sometimes later model mechanics forget. Charlie Stephens This message was edited by CharlieStephens on 5-26-16 @ 9:53 AM
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| 1939ute | -- 05-28-2016 @ 6:57 AM |
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Just to let those interested know, the Ute brakes were checked out and the replaced parts were all good, the problem was in the adjustment, the bottom adjustment was incorrect on all 4 wheels, the top adjustment was 180 degrees out on all 4 wheels, the shoes weren't correctly centered inside all 4 drums. There was no air found in the system when bled! We took the old girl for a test run this afternoon and everything was good! Now to get the report from today's mechanic and have a chat with the first mechanic who initially dismantled and reassembled the recondition front brake parts. In the meantime, thanks to all those who offered their advice, I'm most grateful! Cheers, John This message was edited by 1939ute on 5-28-16 @ 7:24 AM
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