| 39Fordfan | -- 03-11-2016 @ 3:25 PM |
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Hi there, I know this is a controversial subject, but I'd like your opinions on proper cooling for my flathead. Like a lot of flatheads my '39 Deluxe has never cooled well in moderate to hot weather. In other words its not a parade-car on hot days. It will run normally at about 175-180 on a 75 degree day. Maybe to 190 on a 90 plus degree day. It does fine for a few minutes idling, but will run right past 200-205 and up if I don't get it out on the open road real fast, or pull over and shut it off. I never trusted the original gauge in the dash as it shows 220 and up, so I installed a vintage looking modern gauge below the dash so I can keep a more accurate eye on it. I don't think it has thermostats, I've cleaned the radiator inside and out, Purple Ice seems to help. It hasn't been tuned up for a while, but it runs good. I'm thinking of installing water pumps with modern impellers, seeing this as the next logical step. What would you recommend for the cooling system in this regards? 1)Send the existing pumps to Skip Haney for an upgrade? 2)Buy water pumps from Dennis Carpenter, C&G, Macs, Little Dearborn, etc.? Each of these water pumps seem to vary a little bit by vendor. Some have belt tighteners, etc. Are they all basically the same, or is there one design you guys like better? And the bottom line is did the new water pumps you used make a difference to your cooling system issues? Thanks so much for your time!
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| kubes40 | -- 03-11-2016 @ 3:53 PM |
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Before purchasing repop water pumps, I'd send your cores off the George. MUCH better than any poopy made in China. I have had him rebuild numerous pumps and each one has been great. Did any help the engines cool better? Not a one. However, keep in mind all have been installed upon properly restored vehicles. Engines were properly rebuilt, radiators re-cored, etc. I run 155°f thermostats in all of my builds. The only way I could contemplate "modern" pumps helping the cooling is if one were attempting to compensate for something that is not quite "up to par". Bottom line in my opinion? Have George rebuild your pumps. It can't "hurt". I'd also suggest you install thermostats. Use the proper fitting ones and test them prior to installation. I am certain you will get varying opinions and no doubt different things have worked in different situations. Still, if all other components are "correct", there is no need for high volume pumps and certainly NO need for 4# caps and / or overflow valves.
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| joe b | -- 03-12-2016 @ 6:06 AM |
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X2 on Kubes comment. Send them to Skip.
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| TomO | -- 03-12-2016 @ 8:28 AM |
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Rebuilding your water pumps may help. Skips pumps do move the water better than the modern pumps being sold by DC and BD, but moving the water is only one part of the solution. If you use Skips pumps, also order his pressure relief valve and use a 4-6 lb radiator cap. This will help prevent bubbles in the coolant. The radiator efficiency is probably the most important part of keeping the flathead cool. Your radiator must be as clean as possible. Any rust or calcium deposits will hinder the heat transfer. Water with a rust inhibitor will transfer more heat than a 50/50 mixture of water and antifreeze. Another part of the solution is to move more or cooler air through the radiator. Keeping the radiator fins clean is necessary. Having a good fan is another part of the moving air while in traffic. Many of the crank mounted fans have been bent from their original configuration causing them to move less air than when they were new. Installing a deflector in front of the radiator to keep the air flow from going over the top of the radiator will also help increase the airflow through the radiator. Here is a link to an interesting article on heat transfer in an automobile. http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Engine%20Cooling.html Tom
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| EdB | -- 03-12-2016 @ 2:51 PM |
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I did the things mentioned above and found Old Henry's block flushing technique to be a big help also. I did use a vinegar solution in the block and was surprised at what came out.
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| Old Henry | -- 03-12-2016 @ 3:44 PM |
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Here's that backflush method of mine referred to: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83557 This message was edited by Old Henry on 3-12-16 @ 3:44 PM
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| 39Fordfan | -- 03-13-2016 @ 10:33 AM |
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Hi @kubes40, Thanks so much for your reply! I was leaning towards sending them to Skip. Its just that a couple of local guys had really outstanding results from the water pumps they got from DC. One of my pumps is starting to leak a bit, so I figured I'm going to have to do it anyways. When you mentioned the thermostats, is there a small housing for them, or do they simply fit in-line? I am in no way challenging your idea or experience regarding using them. I know you weren't suggesting I do it to my car, but it seems counter-intuitive to stick thermostats in an engine that will overheat if left to idle too long even on a cool or mild day. That's why I never did it. I can't say if this engine was properly rebuilt, etc. It was my Dad's car, which he got when he was 16 years old in 1940 from my Grandpa who bought it new in 1939. It is a very original car and what has been done do it has been mostly lost to the ages. What I can say is that the temp will rocket right up to 210 and I'm pretty sure right past it. I just don't want an expensive engine rebuild because I somehow get caught napping or stuck in a construction zone.
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| drkbp | -- 03-13-2016 @ 10:40 AM |
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Hello 39FordFan, There is really only one good way to enjoy your old Ford. Have a good set of tires on it, a good radiator in it and it will sit in your driveway and idle for thirty minutes and NOT boil. A good radiator will let you idle for an extended period of time and you can check the car with a plain old kitchen thermometer. It's an inexpensive way to check the car's cooling system. First, check the kitchen thermometer with a couple of thermostats you need anyway. I would set the car in the driveway and check the temperature running "at idle" with the kitchen thermometer. Raise the hood, take the radiator cap off and stick it in there. It should not boil. I am with Kubes40 too, if your car is setup "correct" there is NO need for high speed water pumps, water wetter, etc. The Ford V8 doesn't run hot unless it is not "correct" and part of "correct" includes the radiator. The first myth to dispel is they "all run hot". They don't if they are set up as Ford designed the car and the radiator does its job. I run 160 degree thermostats in a 21-stud engine. I have had the '35 Cabriolet since 1974. I don't know how to search the old posts but sometime in the last couple of years I posted temps recorded "running at idle" in the driveway on that car. The V8's '37 and later have even a better cooling arrangement than the '35. Essentially, that '35 will sit in the driveway with one-half hood up, 74 degrees ambient or so, and idle for an hour and NOT boil. It is stock, 50/50 ethylene glycol antifreeze, with Western Auto water pumps and Bridgeport "Standard" (160's) thermostats. The one caveat is if there is ANY breeze at all, do not let it be a tail wind to the car. Other than that, it just sits there and runs. I have several "wall hanger" radiators that "look great" but don't cool and others have already said why. I also know that a new radiator is a lot of money and many budgets have difficulty with that, mine included. I don't change a water pump unless it "leaks or squeaks". If the '39 driveway idles hot and boils, you have other problems that a water pump doesn't solve. I put my guess on the radiator if the distributor is set up properly. Let us know what the kitchen thermometer says. I am a little suspect of the auto part temp gages. Ken in Texas
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| 39Fordfan | -- 03-13-2016 @ 10:44 AM |
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Hi TomO, Thank-you for always taking the time to reply to my queries. I'll take another look at cleaning the radiator again. It does have a crank mounted fan. It doesn't seem to be bent or altered in any way, but it does seem to be a bit far away from the radiator to draw a lot of air through it. The deflector you mentioned. Is that something you can purchase somewhere, if so, any suggestions as to where? Or did you make one yourself? Do you have any pictures of it? Thanks for the article, very interesting!
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| 39Fordfan | -- 03-13-2016 @ 10:51 AM |
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Old Henry, Thanks so much for that! I do think the cooling system is ready for a back flush. My car doesn't have a heater or heater core, but I'll figure it out.
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| 39Fordfan | -- 03-13-2016 @ 11:01 AM |
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Hi Ken, Being from Texas, I do think you are much more of an expert on hot days than we are up here in Minnesota, though it can get hot enough here to make you forget about the winter, surprisingly enough. I will take a closer look at the radiator and do what you suggest regarding the temperature. I've gotten comments from old timers regarding the originality of the radiator. I know its been re-cored in its past, but it certainly could be my problem. One of my pumps are starting to leak, so I wanted to figure them out first. Thanks to everyone for your replies. Its all very useful!
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| 39Fordfan | -- 03-13-2016 @ 11:08 AM |
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Earlier,I posted a picture of my Dad with the '39 Deluxe as he was getting ready to ship out to England for WWII. This '39 is the object of these posts. Here is another picture of my Great Grandfather with a 1907 Oldsmobile. He was probably the first Olds dealer in the Midwest and he helped my Dad get his one year old '39 Ford as a 16 year old in 1940.
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| TomO | -- 03-13-2016 @ 11:27 AM |
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Here is a link to BD site and the deflectors that he sells for the 49 models. http://www.bobdrake.com/Categories2.aspx?Id=d64e455b-94fa-452c-a37d-6894b9bc7e73 You can check the airflow through the radiator by holding a piece of paper in front of the radiator with the car idling, the fan should suck to the radiator and hold it there. The fan is only operative at low speeds, above 15 mph it doesn't have any effect. If you have an infra-red heat sensor or a contact thermometer, you can measure the heat drop across the radiator, by measuring the temp of the bottom tank, jut in front of the lower hoses and the upper tank just in front of the upper hoses. It should be at least 10 degrees difference. A candy thermometer is an accurate way to measure coolant temperature. If your car has the original water pumps, they should be rebuilt or replaced. The impellers are probably worn and causing air bubbles in your coolant. Your car should run down the at 35-40 mph at 160-180 with no thermostats or 160 thermostats. If it does not, you have a water flow problem. Water pumps and radiator are the chief suspects. Tom
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| drkbp | -- 03-13-2016 @ 12:26 PM |
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I hear you on the leaky pump. Fix or replace them both if you can. Candy thermometer is a better way to say it. Senior moment... You have a very solid original car that has been cared for and the flush sounds good too. No reason not to enjoy that one for sure! Wow on Gramps and the big brass Olds! I drove an early Ford brass car with the acetylene headlights and kerosene cowl and tail lights to church last night. Not nearly as impressive as that massive Olds but quite a site to see when a brass car is "all lit up". It didn't freeze here this "winter". Watch out mosquitoes! Ken in Texas
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| 40 Coupe | -- 03-14-2016 @ 5:40 AM |
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I agree on sending the pumps to George Skip Haney but make sure they are original to your cars manufacturer date and not much later either Ford replacement or aftermarket. So do some research to find out what the original pumps and pulleys look like.
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