| wmsteed | -- 07-15-2015 @ 8:54 AM |
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I recently sold a '46 Ford Deluxe V8 2dr sdn to a man in Washington State..The car was a very nice unmolested car. When the new owner attempted to transfer the ownership it was found that the serial number on the frame was not a '46 number.. According to all of the published material, a '46 Ford Deluxe V8 is supposed to be a 69A-650xxx. The number stamped into the frame and the trans bell is 99A-761xxx. Since there is no such thing as a series 99A in any of the early Ford V8's, I think the Ford employee inverted the first "6" in his stamp set, thereby making it a 9.. Anybody have any thoughts on this subject, Input/comments will be appreciated. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe This message was edited by wmsteed on 7-15-15 @ 8:56 AM
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| 40 Coupe | -- 07-15-2015 @ 11:18 AM |
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According to what published material....The 46 V8 is Model 69A, The serial or VIN numbers range from 99A-650280 to 99A-1412709 This is in Mac VanPelt's transmission book.
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| len47merc | -- 07-15-2015 @ 12:07 PM |
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http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_serialnumbers.htm 40 Coupe is on the mark. Not sure what the problem is here - ? Steve
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| wmsteed | -- 07-16-2015 @ 8:54 AM |
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Evidently there are some poor readers out there. In my original posting I listed the correct sequence range for the serial number on a '46 Ford Deluxe V8 69A-650XXX. The problem I am trying to find a solution to is the 99A-761XXX number that is stamped into the frame and the transmission bell on the '46 Ford that I sold to the man in Washington State. Washington State DMV will not accept the 99A number on the chassis and title because it is not correct for a '46 Ford. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| cliftford | -- 07-16-2015 @ 9:47 AM |
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I also live in Washington. I had a '48 coupe sitting on a chassis with a '46 6 cyl vin #. Here we have a process called registration only, ownership in doubt. Using this method, you get a registration in your name, and after 3 years, if no claim is made against the car DMV will send you a title in your name. Meanwhile. you can sell or trade the car. I used this method on my '48 and everything worked out fine. Check with you local licensing agent, many of them are not too well informed on this.
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| len47merc | -- 07-16-2015 @ 11:49 AM |
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Bill - sorry to have offended you. Fundamentally all the documentation I have (4 sources), including the link to Van Pelt Sales 40 Coupe referenced and I provided to you in my earlier reply, indicate '46s to have the serial number sequence as 40 Coupe states, so on the surface it would seem Washington DMV is somehow confused. It is doubtful, IMHO, the serial number is incorrectly referenced on the car, particularly given it is consistent on both the frame and the bell housing. I have a '47 Merc - 79M - that has all date stamps under the dash of late December, '46 but the window bugs and other documentation show the car to have been completed in January of '47. The matching serial numbers on the frame and bell housing are 99A-1,3xx,xxx, so note the model number is not incorporated in the serial number, and the late '46 carryover into '47 serial number starts with '99', not '69'. These reference docs and listings are not absolute, particularly with respect to end-of-year/start-of-year builds, and I have seen and heard of many variances. I did a bit of research and found the following - please look down toward the bottom of the page just after the 1948 serial number listing and you will find a reference/clue to what may be at play here: http://www.wnyrg.org/tip.html Wish I could help more - good luck! Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 7-16-15 @ 12:08 PM
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| TomO | -- 07-17-2015 @ 7:41 AM |
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Bill, I understand your frustration in dealing with someone not familiar with Ford serial numbers. Some of the confusion comes from the fact that the serial numbers were not model dependent, they were assigned to the engine and stamped on the frame as the engine was installed. The government changed the rules in 1946 and Ford was required to identify the model year in the serial number. I don't know which published material is being used by the state of Washington, to determine the correct serial number format, but all of the material that I have shows the format for the 46 Ford and Mercury starts with 99 xxxxxx. My material includes Motors Auto Repair Manual fourteenth edition printed in 1951, The V-8 Album, published by the Early Ford V-8 Club and several web sites. If you need me to scan the Motors page, I will do that for you. Tom
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| 42wagon | -- 07-17-2015 @ 8:36 AM |
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Bill Just to add to what Tom says I have a book by Chilton published in 1955 called Fix Fords Illustrated that gives the model for a 1946 Ford with a V8 as 69A and the serial number as starting with 99A-650280. This is no different from what they did earlier when they assigned a 42 Ford with model 21A and a serial number starting with 18-. 42 Wagon
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| wmsteed | -- 07-17-2015 @ 9:57 AM |
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Thank you Steve & Tom.. Your information cleared up the mystery regarding the serial/ID number (s) on the '46 Ford. In the following is the rest of the story: The publication that I use, which is readily accepted by most DMV's is The Standard Catalog of American Cars.(SCAC) This publication is readily available through many book dealers, where-as old Motor Manuals, etc., are not. On page 318 SCAC, under the tile 1946 Ford: "Deluxe V8 series I.D. Numbers, Deluxe V8 powered models begin with the designation, "69A", with production numbers beginning at 650280 and going to 1412707" ** Therein this implies that the serial number for a '46 Ford V8 should be "69A761XXX" not the 99AXXXXXX stamped into the frame. Through-out the entire description (s) of the '46 Ford's, there is no mention of 99A, only 6GA or 69A. The vehicle in question has a Idaho Title which was issued in 1980. The serial number shown on the title is 70B761XXX, which is incorrect because "70B" is the number for a 2dr sdn., which the vehicle is. The number stamped into the frame and transmission is 99A761XXX.. A correct number for a V8 powered Deluxe vehicle. In all likelihood it will never be known why the vehicle was titled as "70B761XXX". I do know that the vehicle originally came from up State New York before it arrived in Idaho. Of course the problem (s) we have encountered will never surface until a vehicle is transferred to another state and the numbers stamped into the frame do not match the numbers on the title/registration. etc.. Another fact of life is computers and the information highway available therein, and the number of stolen vehicles that have surfaces after having been un-recovered for over many years. Based on the info that I have uncovered, I am going to make out a new Bill of Sale for the vehicle using the numbers stamped into the frame with a statement of facts attached. The new owner of the vehicle will then apply for a new title/registration with correct numbers. Again.. Thank you everyone for your help.. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| 40 Coupe | -- 07-19-2015 @ 5:05 AM |
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It would seem to me the problem lies with the title having the incorrect prefix (not the vehicle). This should have been corrected by any of the previous owners. Now it seems to have grown to even a larger problem. In Ohio if an error is made on an old title and the owner wants to have the error corrected, it is necessary for the state highway patrol to inspect the vehicle serial or vin number. The patrol fills out paperwork for the auto title bureau to change the title serial number. Also in Ohio if the vehicle is from out of state and an in state owner wants the title in their name it again has to be inspected, but this can be done by any business with the proper certificate from the state. They only make sure both the title and vehicle numbers match and certify this.
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| wmsteed | -- 07-19-2015 @ 11:20 AM |
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The problem (s) with the vehicle serial number and associated paperwork on the '46 Ford probably started when the car was titled in New York State, prior to 1980/81, possibly when the car was new, i.e., the "70B" prefix in the serial number, which is the model number for a 2dr sdn,followed by a correct '46 Ford serial number sequence "761XXX". During the last fifteen plus years I have encountered several old vehicles that have an engine number on the title/registration, in lieu of the serial number shown on the body/chassis tag. This is especially true of GM and Chrysler built vehicles, both of which have very good paper trails back to their origin. Which as most of us know is not true of the Ford built vehicles. The increasingly huge problem of securing legal ownership of older vehicles with "doubtful lineage" has become a big problem with the common practice of wanting "matching numbers" on older vehicles. Example: Last year I purchased a '65 Corvair Corsa, an unmolested one owner car with 30+k on the odometer. The car came out of an estate settlement, in Arizona, sold on a Bill of Sale by the estate trustee.. The trustee of the estate had not bothered to follow state law getting a new title, etc., on the car prior to selling the car. The man that bought the car was trying to sell the car on eBay for a large sum because of low mileage, etc. of the vehicle. I have a son that lives in Arizona so I had him check with the state to see what was going to be re1uired to get a clean title to the car. The car had not been licensed since 1991. The bids on the car did not come close to the reserve, the ad was refreshed several times with no takers. I finally sent a PM to the seller, telling him that if he would change the ad to a Buy it Now, or Best Offer, I would give him $1,300 for the car. I bought the car and then went through the process of getting legal ownership.. I made a big mistake with the '46 because I knew the man in Idaho that I bought the car from, I also knew the man that had brought the car from New York and had transferred the ownership into his name in Idaho. It never entered my mind to question the title or to clean the frame and verify the numbers. The problem did not surface until eight months after I sold the car to the man in Washington. He had not bothered to transfer the ownership until after he got the car running.. Two mistakes, his and mine.. Footnote: When I contacted the man in Idaho that I had bought the car from, he was not very responsive to the problem. He had owned the car for over thirty years, keeping it licensed and driving it from time to time. Since the car was titled in Idaho when he bought it, he did not have to have the numbers verified. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe This message was edited by wmsteed on 7-19-15 @ 11:30 AM
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