| johnpoly | -- 02-25-2010 @ 4:19 PM |
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I have been putting 30wt non-detergent in my '36. When the engine is hot the oil pressue goes to zero when idling. It goes back up to about 10 lbs when running. I have seen that many of you use 20wt-50wt oil. Would this be better for me at idle? Thanks for guidance, John
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 02-25-2010 @ 4:48 PM |
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HI you might want to try a mechanial gauge,just to see if the original gauge is working correctly,it might be off a few pounds, giving you a low pressure reading, this is a concern,so no engine damage, you could put a high pressure oil pump in, I did this in my 37 85 hp engine, and now reads 20-30 pds hot, and 50 going down the road,I still use the original guage, and you could go to 20-50 PENZOIL,CASTROL, or a straight weight oil, HARLEY DAVIDSON SELLS 50 w and I think this would also work well in these old engines, hope this helps,37 RAGTOPMAN
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| ford38v8 | -- 02-25-2010 @ 7:07 PM |
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John, the 20/50 should work well for you, but my choice is 10/30, as I don't want such a thick oil, and don't need the extra phosphorous. (Our old Fords haven't the phosphorous [zinc] problem that some early overhead valve engines have.) The much bigger issue here is the use of detergent versus non-detergent oil. There is no reason for any engine to use non-detergent oil today, and every reason to use detergent. Alan
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| supereal | -- 02-26-2010 @ 9:24 AM |
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If you are concerned about high pressure additives, such as zinc, use Sh*ll Rotella oil. You can find 15W-40 at most Walmarts. As my friend, Alan, points out, non-detergent oil belongs only in oil cans. Too many newcomers to the old Ford hobby obsess over oil pressure. It is a rare engine that shows much, if any, oil pressure when at hot idle.
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| Steve S | -- 02-26-2010 @ 9:59 AM |
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Be aware, Diesel oils are also now affected by laws reducing zinc content just as gasoline engine oils are. I haven't seen the spec sheet on Rotella lately but chances are that it has no more zinc than anything else. The best oils that contain high levels of zinc, in my opinion, are CCMO, VR-1 and Mobil 1.
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| wmsteed | -- 02-26-2010 @ 10:58 AM |
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I don't even use non-detergent oil in my oil cans. When i pore the contents out of an oil container into an engine, etc. I turn the empty container upside down into an old 2gt oil can. After the oil container is completed drained of any oil residue I discard the plastic container and cover the 2qt can. From time to time I transfer the oil from the 2qt into a sealed container that I use for my small oil cans. It is truly amazing how much oil can be high-graded out of empty oil containers. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| MTLott | -- 02-26-2010 @ 11:18 AM |
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Here are some numbers on Mobil 1: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf I called Sh*ll ... 1200 ppm in Rotella. Plus, here is another guy who emailed them and got this reply: "The latest rumors about Rotella had me thinking we were down to using high dollar racing oil. Found a Rotella web site, emailed a question, took a nap, got a reply. Sometimes its your day. Here is question and reply; I have heard that Rotella T CI-4 is being phased out, replaced by CJ-4. Is the ZDDP content being reduced? If so, by what percentage, or what will the PPM of ZDDP be with the new oil if its not a trade secret? The hotrod guys are dying to know, we've all been using Rotella due to flat tappet camshaft break in problems using the new oils without the ZDDP additives. Here is his reply: We still sell Rotella T 15w-40 CI-4 in 55 gallon drums, but not in smaller packages. It has approximately 1400 ppm zinc. You can buy this from a sh*ll lubricants distributor. Since Oct. 15,2006 all small packaging has been Rotella T with triple protection 15w-40 CJ-4 and it has approximately 1200 ppm zinc. This is 50% more zinc than current passenger car motor oils which contain approximately 800 ppm zinc. Passenger car motor oils had approximately 1200 ppm zinc prior to 2001. In 2001 the zinc was reduced to 1000 ppm and in 2005 reduced again to the current 800 ppm. Thus, the new Rotella T with triple protection 15w-40 CJ-4 has the same zinc content that passenger car motor oils had in 2000 before the current problems with flat tappets began. However, zinc compounds are not the only additives that can reduce wear. We were able to reduce wear approximately 50% with the new Rotella T with triple protection 15w-40 CJ-4 formulation. This is from a staff engineer in Houston, Texas."
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| Stroker | -- 02-26-2010 @ 11:31 AM |
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Thank You MT: I've had good luck through the years with Valvoline Racing 40. Any thoughts? Dan
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| MTLott | -- 02-26-2010 @ 1:11 PM |
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" ... Valvoline Racing 40. Any thoughts?" Got to be great oil. I am certainly not an expert on oil, and I do not know how you're using it. But, multi-grade oil is my choice for general usage; it simply oils up faster on startups as it is designed to do. The drawback on multi-grades is that it takes "polymers" to make them work. If the polymers wear out somehow, like in racing maybe, then I'm not sure what weight you'd have. I use Rotella in my flatheads and Mobil 1 in my aging modern vehicles. BUT, man, there are so many good oils to choose from. (I'm more worried about finding a replacement transformer for my Sun machine. Got one?)
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| supereal | -- 02-26-2010 @ 2:09 PM |
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Bob Masters has them. 800/385-5811. e-mail: Rmasters3@insightbb.com Note on oil: Our supplier confirms that Rotella contains adequate zinc to protect cams, etc. The problem with diesels is the "new" fuel which has reduced lubricity causing rapid injector pump wear. We have replaced two pumps for customers so far this year. In over 50 years in the business, I have yet to see a flat original cam in an old Ford. I just replaced my '04 Lexus with an '10, and the required oil is full synthetic 0W-20. They claim 15,000 mi between changes, or yearly. When Toyota increased oil change interval to 7,500 they had to buy a bunch of new engines due to oil jelling. I wonder what changed their mind?
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| 51f1 | -- 02-26-2010 @ 3:24 PM |
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The oil available when your car/truck was built is about as good as today's 3-In-One oil. (O.K. Maybe that's an exaggeration.) But any oil available today is better than any oil available when your car was built. Just pick one. Where do you buy non-detergent oil? Richard This message was edited by 51f1 on 2-26-10 @ 3:27 PM
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| Stroker | -- 02-26-2010 @ 3:38 PM |
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Just to keep things in perspective, I have 15 gallons of Veedol 30 wt. from the late 30's when my grandfather was self-servicing his 37 Zephyr. I also have a half case of Veedol 10 wt. that he used in the winter for the same car. I consider that I have a 10 lifetimes supply of oil for my furnace fan bearings, and enough original cans of 10-wt Veedol to ebay to can collectors to help finance my parts needs on my beloved 38 woodie. Would I ever pour Veedol in my car? I think you all know the answer to that. If anyone out there wants "vintage 30 wt. (before detergent was invented) oil, I've got it. I wouldn't insult my knowledgeable V8'ers by posting this trove in the classified, as you guys are a lot smarter than that.
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| MTLott | -- 02-27-2010 @ 3:39 AM |
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Oil discussions are usually very popular on message boards. There is a lot of information available and a ton of opinions. Most times the original questioner gets an overload and remains uncertain. ZDDP is always at the center of any discussion. Rarely mentioned is what happens if you use too much of it ... some guys really over-dose. Supposedly, too much ZDDP starts attacking the "grain boundaries" in iron causing camshaft spalling. Well. One more thing to worry about. (Thank you, Supereal, for suggesting Bob Masters. I just thought someone might have some spare Sun machine parts ... as I do but no transformer ... and would like to sell or swap.)
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| SteveC | -- 02-27-2010 @ 7:44 AM |
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I love people that immediately dismiss non-detergent oil. I have used it in Model A's and Henderson in line four cylinder motorcycle engines for forty years without any failure. If you have a babbit bearing engine that you have not opened and cleaned, it is very possible that by using detergent oil without an oil filter, the oil will pick up dirt and fine metal particles, hold them in suspension and run the junk right back through the bearings. I agree that after a clean rebuild, any good quality modern oil of proper viscosity may be used with good results. The key is frequent oil changes in unfiltered systems. I generally change the non-detergent oil at 500-700 mile intervals. I smile at oil the modern oil discussions. Its like arguing over attractive blondes, brunettes and redheads (it's a matter of personal preference). Additionally, if you have a stock engine and don't run it over its original design limits, I don't think all these modern additives make one bit of difference plus or minus. I once had a guy argue about the merits of synthetic oil and then tell me he changed his oil at 750 mile increments anyway (a big waste of money in mho). I just bought an original '34 with the unknown engine. I'm sure its never been rebuilt so I will use a 40wt non-detergent in it per the owner's manual. Non-detergent is still readily available from many suppliers like Amalie, Drydene, Sunoco etc. NAPA and local parts suppliers will generally have it or can get it. Not to be found in Walmarts or Autozones, etc. Please note I am not advocating this for modified or high performance engines.
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| supereal | -- 02-27-2010 @ 8:06 AM |
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The largest drawback to using non-detergent oil is the rapid formation of sludge. Most of us old timers recall scooping handfuls of "black jello" out of valve chambers and oil pans. Most of the babbit bearings I've seen are very porous, and exhibit lodging of debris, in any case, particularly those that were hand scr*ped to adjust clearance. Many engines, including those in Ford tractors, have large, removable panels in the oil pan so sludge could be removed without pulling the engine. As the Ford tractor engines form half of the frame, that was a good idea.
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| wmsteed | -- 02-27-2010 @ 8:50 AM |
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If my memory is correct, the "W" on oil grades does not stand for weight, it stands for "winter". I think it was sometime during the mid '30's that the oil company's reformulated engine lubricates utilizing the terms "20 W, 30 W. etc., to signify the temp range they were intended for. Over time the "W" has been construed to mean weight, in lieu of winter. When a manufacture recommended 40w, that meant the oil was intended for use above 40 degrees. The same scale applies to the other oil grades. Foot note.... The same oil debate in currently going on at the Plymouth Owners Club Forum.... Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| wmsteed | -- 02-27-2010 @ 9:07 AM |
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Well now Super, you must be reading my mind. About an hour ago I made a posting to the POC Forum about the sludge and acid that use to be very common in engines during the years prior to the invention and use of detergent engine lubricants. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| supereal | -- 02-27-2010 @ 12:15 PM |
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Yeah, Bill, we are usually on the same page. I think much of the opposition to "detergent" oil, if there is any left. comes from the use of the term. It kind of sounds like you are pouring Tide into your crankcase. I think "dispersant" would be a better term. The additive "package" used in today's motor oils is a complex mix of ingredients never dreamed of back in the days when oil came in glass bottles with long snouts at the corner "filling" station after we cranked them full in the back room.
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| JebNY | -- 02-27-2010 @ 7:00 PM |
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If you want hours of reading on oil and additives check out Bob the Oil Guys Forum. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php Jim... 1950 F1 Stake
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| 1934 Ford | -- 02-28-2010 @ 3:50 PM |
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While not scientific, my reason for using 20W50 is climate. We live in Florida where oil seeems to get hotter than elsewhere. I my good engines I use the 20W50 because I think it stays a little heavier in the Florida heat. It never gets really cold here, so starting on a cold day is NOT a consideration. In my worn out 35 Pickup I use 50 Racing oil because it drips less! I've always heard that these old flatheads were very loose on clearances when new,(compared to todays engines so a worn out one should be real sloppy. Any oil will work fine, but changing it often keeps everyting clean and lubricated. Main advantage is thicker drips less.
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