| Mr_Corvair | -- 03-19-2015 @ 6:00 PM |
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My 46 has the hubs mounted to the outside of the drum.The drums need to be replaced since they can't be turned anymore. Accordingly I purchased 51A-1107 studs,51A-1125 drums, a hub bolt removal tool, and a swedging tool. The hub bolt removal tool is A1107T and the swedging tool is A1109T. The tool numbers are Mac's. I started to drill out a stud with the hub bolt removal tool. The tool would make a hole larger than the original swedge so I stopped cutting before I cut into the hub. Whats wrong? What is the procedure? Who has done this successfully? Help!!
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| len47merc | -- 03-21-2015 @ 9:25 AM |
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Search for a discussion on this forum (General Ford Discussion) initiated by flathead48 on 2/11/15 entitled 'front drum' and you will find replies that should answer your questions. Steve
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| mrtexas | -- 03-21-2015 @ 11:23 AM |
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ick - do you have the older style hub/drum where the outer hub flange with the lug bolts in it is inside the drum? If so, and the original bolts are still in the hub/drum 'assembly', the bolts will have been swaged on the outside of the drum to hold the drum securely to the hub (the 'bulge' may be subtle but it will be there if original). In this case the simplest and safest solution is to take a side angle grinder (or equivalent cutting method) and cut the bolts flush with the old drum, remove the drum then press the balance of the bolt out of the hub. CAUTION - if you try to press the swaged bolts out of both parts without first cutting off the swaged/bulged portion you very likely may crack your hub and then of course you are up the proverbial creek. If you want to stay original you will need to obtain new bolts designed for swaging and place your new drums on the hub with the new bolts already pressed in then find a machine shop that can swag the bolts. Most are simply purchasing the newer-style drums and bolts that only require the bolts to be pressed into the hub and then the drum can be slid on and off easily whenever you need to work on the brakes, this also without having to remove the hub. Your call on which way you want to go. If you have the style hub and drum with the hub flange on the outside of the drum and the lug bolts pressed through from the back of the drum through the hub flange, then again these bolts should be cut off with a side angle grinder or equivalent cutting method and then pressed out. Again also, if you do not remove the swaged/bulged area first you very likely may crack your hub. For this style I am not aware of any other option other than placing your new drum on the hub and pressing in the new lug bolts, then having the bolts swaged by a professional shop with the appropriate swaging tools/presses to get the job done correctly on such a big bolt. I have no personal experience with this style but have been advised by an owner of a vehicle with this style they had problems when they simply reassembled the parts without swaging the bolts (for this style only). Btw - I was told he ground off the head of the bolts on the inside of the drum and then pressed the bolts through the hub from the backside to the front, this to prevent marring and/or damage to the outside of the hub flange from trying to cut the bolt off from the outside. Steve
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| Mr_Corvair | -- 03-21-2015 @ 7:01 PM |
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Thanks for the replies. The post and repost above do not address my situation. Is the tool I bought, the new drums I purchased and the original hubs I have compatible? If so what is the procedure. I can't be the first person faced with this dilemma. Please advise.
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| len47merc | -- 03-21-2015 @ 7:13 PM |
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The second paragraph which speaks directly to your orientation, and in particular the last sentence of the second paragraph, should address your concern but perhaps I am wrong. Grinding the heads off of the bolts from the inside of the drums and then pressing the bolts out through the drum and hub should eliminate both the problem of drilling out the studs and any associated potential hub damage from the drilling. After disassembly you should be able to use the parts and tools you have referenced to complete your repair/restoration properly. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 3-21-15 @ 7:36 PM
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| Mr_Corvair | -- 03-22-2015 @ 9:20 AM |
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Thanks Steve. I don't mean to beat a horse to death. Maybe I'm missing something. The special cutter that I bought from Mac's I thought had a purpose. Is it used? If not when is it used? My drums are new with a 4" hole.My old hubs are on the old drums. If I cut the head off of the stud inside the drum I have done nothing to the swedge inside the hub. Will pressing the swedge part of the stud out of the hub without relieving it have the potential to damage the hub? I don't want to damage my hubs. They are in good condition. Thanks in advance.
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| len47merc | -- 03-22-2015 @ 11:54 AM |
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Mr_Corvair - I have never personally used the A1107T tool that you have referenced nor have I ever found the need; however, I did look at the tool on Mac's website and found it is only listed for 1926 & 1927 Model T applications. The same is true for the swedging tool - perhaps these are typos/errors on their part (?). I have never seen a lug bolt removal cutting tool that increased the size of the lug holes in a hub. My experience with your orientation has been to grind off the end of the lug bolt on the inside of the brake drum and press out through the drum and hub, ensuring the outside edge of the hub flange is properly supported around the perimeter of the lug bolt shaft. Then using the swedging tool as specified in the instructions on Mac's website for your tool insert the new lugs through the new drum and the old hub and press accordingly. You could reduce the pressure necessary to press out the bolts by drilling a pilot hole (and then possibly another larger) through the center of a ground off &/or cut-off bolt but I have yet to find that necessary Perhaps a pic of the outside of the hub and drum, as well as another of the inside of the drum with the lug heads evident will help me/us better understand your concern. Apologies for sounding like a broken record here. Check in to the application chart for your tools and confirm they are appropriate for your model. If the cutting tool increases the size of the hole in your hub I'd have to conclude it is not correct for your '46. Btw - I have a '47 Merc with the opposite orientation - hub flange on the inside of the drum. I cut off the bolts with a side-angle grinder flush with the old drums (which were being discarded) and the bolts pressed out easily with no damage to the hubs - significant care was taken to support the back side of the hub flange as closely and securely as possible around each lug bolt on the press. Then using a swedging tool inserted the bolts and swedged/pressed them back together. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 3-22-15 @ 12:48 PM
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| Mr_Corvair | -- 03-22-2015 @ 5:52 PM |
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Steve--Thank you again. I confirmed what you said about the A1107T hub bolt tool. However on page 6 of the new V8 catalog it is shown for 32-48 swedge removal. Also shown is the A1109T swedging tool also shown for 32-48. It is also in the earlier catalog but I don't know the page number since I tossed it when I got my new one. However I ordered from the older catalog. From everything you've said and from everything I have observed I can only conclude that what you are saying is correct and I'm out $140. Please look in the catalog you have in the wheel parts and confirm what we now both assume is correct. Mel
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| len47merc | -- 03-22-2015 @ 7:27 PM |
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Mel, unfortunately I am not going to be much help on the Macs hard copy catalog review as I do not have any from this source. Perhaps others can weigh in here that have Macs catalogs in their reference library. Steve
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| TomO | -- 03-23-2015 @ 8:36 AM |
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Mel, There were 2 different style studs used in the drums, one has a completely round head and the other has a flat side on the head. The diameter of the swedged section of the stud with the flat side is .56" and the other type it is .62". I believe that Mac's hole saw is a 5/8" inner diameter and would work with the .62" stud. Just drill enough to clean up most of the swedged area, about 1/64"-1/32" into the hub. You should then be able to press out the studs. Tom
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| len47merc | -- 03-23-2015 @ 9:50 AM |
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Hi Tom - do you perceive it necessary to remove the swedged area at all if the heads of the lug bolts are ground off inside the to-be-discarded drums and the bolts are pressed out from the inside of the drum through the outside of the hub? Were it me, although you are only talking 1/64" - 1/32" I'd prefer not to mar or machine the hubs at all if it could be avoided. Appreciate your thoughts here Tom - thanks! Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 3-23-15 @ 9:51 AM
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| len47merc | -- 03-23-2015 @ 2:22 PM |
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Mel - your dilemma has been on my mind all day. Trying to visualize what you are dealing with, it sounds as if whomever swedged your lug bolts previously did so in a manner that did not 'bulge' or 'mushroom' out the bolt above/on the outside of the hub - is this correct? If so, perhaps all that was accomplished during that swedging process was to swell/bulge the steel of the lug bolt shaft out into the holes of the hub and drum and did not mushroom any material on the outside of the hub. If this is the case, my suggestion would still be to grind off the head of a lug bolt and press it out from the inside to the outside, taking care to properly and securely brace around the full perimeter of the lug bolt to protect the hub from being damaged. Assuming you find no external 'bulging' of the lug outside of the hub on your first 'test', then you could, if you were brave enough and so inclined, place a couple of lug nuts on another lug bolt, lock them together and press it through in the opposite direction, again taking care to brace the then underside of the brake drum and hub. This would eliminate the need for grinding off the heads of the balance of the bolts. For me, I'd still grind off the heads and press them all out from the inside out, and try and return the unused tool, but that's just me and my two cents. Please advise if my 'visualization' above is correct. Good luck - Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 3-23-15 @ 3:28 PM
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| Mr_Corvair | -- 03-23-2015 @ 6:34 PM |
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Tom--I realize there are 2 diameters. The .56 was used with hubs that mounted on the inside of the drum. The .62 was used with hubs that mounted on the outside of the drum. I'm not in my shop now but I believe the od of the cutter is .62 the same as the stud.
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| Mr_Corvair | -- 03-23-2015 @ 6:34 PM |
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Tom--I realize there are 2 diameters. The .56 was used with hubs that mounted on the inside of the drum. The .62 was used with hubs that mounted on the outside of the drum. I'm not in my shop now but I believe the od of the cutter is .62 the same as the stud.
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| Mr_Corvair | -- 03-23-2015 @ 6:36 PM |
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sorry about dual post!!
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| Mr_Corvair | -- 03-23-2015 @ 6:39 PM |
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Steve, Thank you for your concern. I will start by removing head of stud inside the drum and pressing from the inside with full backing on the outside. Then I will decide how to proceed but most likely will continue to work from the inside of the drum. Thanks again Steve. Regards, Mel
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| len47merc | -- 03-24-2015 @ 5:18 AM |
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Mel - let us know how you make out. Will be good info for all. TomO & Mel - thanks for the insight and (for me anyway) education on the differing lug sizes as well as the tool application. Hopefully in the end you will be able to return the tool Mel and save the $'s. Steve
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| TomO | -- 03-24-2015 @ 7:23 AM |
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Steve, I see no need to remove the swedged area id the heads are ground off and pressed out from the inside. My answer was to clarify the use of the tool. The amount removed from the hub should not make any difference to the strength of the hub. Either procedure will work. Tom
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| len47merc | -- 03-24-2015 @ 10:33 AM |
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Thanks Tom - having never used this particular tool before this is good info to have. Have used similar tools that amounted to hollow reamers to clear swedged bolt shafts internal to the holes only (without increasing the hole size) on other more modern/later applications. Thanks for sharing. Steve
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| len47merc | -- 03-24-2015 @ 11:01 AM |
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Thanks Tom - having never used this particular tool before this is good info to have. Have used similar tools that amounted to hollow reamers to clear swedged bolt shafts internal to the holes only (without increasing the hole size) on other more modern/later applications. Thanks for sharing. Steve
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| Mr_Corvair | -- 03-27-2015 @ 4:58 PM |
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Steve and others. Well today it all happened. I took the old drums with the outside mounted hubs to a local machine shop. We took one drum and using an endmill in a milling machine machined off the stud heads inside the drum. The studs then pressed out very easily. there was a distinct swedge area where the stud was pressed to the hub. As I mentioned earlier the swedge was flush with the hub surface. Therefore pressing out from the inside seems to be the best approach. After removing the 5 studs it took a slight press to press the hub and drum apart. What comes next is to attach the old hub to the new drums and swedge the stud. I will; report on this when we do it.
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| len47merc | -- 03-27-2015 @ 5:22 PM |
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Mel - that's great news! Hope it continues to go well for you, the new drums button-up perfectly and require minimal to no truing. Also hope you are able to return the stud removal tool and save the $$$'s! Steve
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