| 39Fordfan | -- 08-13-2014 @ 2:29 PM |
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Hi, A few weeks ago a made a post about a charging issue I have been having on my '39 Deluxe. I had banged the Voltage Regular with the back of a screw driver and the car ran really bad. So I changed the voltage regulator and the car ran better, but it still doesn't charge at the rate it should. Plus, I am also still getting some discharge from somewhere in the system after the car sits for a day or so. I thought this might've been due to the Voltage Regulator points remaining closed, but now I'm not so sure, with a new one in there. So now, with the generator putting out about 3.5 - 4 volts I am looking to replace it. Someone told me you can get a 6 volt positive ground Alternator that looks like a generator. The advantage being enough juice to actually run brighter halogen lights and it is internally regulated. He absolutely swears by his. One knock I heard was that the alternator runs hot inside of the generator housing and burns out quicker. What else do you think could go wrong with this set-up? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think of this issue, and what the simplest, fastest way to brighter lights is, with a nod to originality.
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| 4dFordSC | -- 08-13-2014 @ 2:53 PM |
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Ed Whitney does not use the original generator housing for his conversions. You need only send him your end plates, and he makes his own lightweight housing. I've been using one of his conversions for nearly 10 years, and have had no problems with heat or anything else. This message was edited by 4dFordSC on 8-13-14 @ 2:54 PM
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| len47merc | -- 08-13-2014 @ 3:09 PM |
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Albeit I'm talking '47 versus '39, but I ran into a similar situation when bringing this car back to life last year. After 4 - yes FOUR - voltage regulators (moral of the story - don't trust 'new' regulators), and also an armature change in the generator after having the gen tested on a growler and watching sparks shoot out the front of the gen ~6-8 inches at a local auto/electrical shop, I finally gave up on local/national auto parts shops' regulators and invested in a Quality voltage regulator (supplied by and validated by the same shop). After installing the new armature and supplying the shop with the gen they validated the output under load at 68 amps and also ensured the regulator was polarized and producing full output. After scr*w*ng around with this for a while myself, finally after letting the professionals/experts have at it, after install all issues were resolved and charging and output has been on the mark ever since. Wish I'd made this decision initially and saved myself hours of frustration. Output is 7.2-7.4V now. Have 2 neighbors with 6V systems in their classics and they cannot believe how bright this '47's original headlights are. Taillights are quite visible during daylight hours. Dash and interior lights have the look they should. Voltage to the coil is correct. If you can stay original with your gen I'd recommend the same and as well recommend you find a quality auto/electrical shop skilled in classics early in your efforts to test and validate both your generator and the VR. Steve
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| TomO | -- 08-14-2014 @ 6:34 AM |
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I like the painting of your 39. You can determine if the low charging voltage is due to the regulator or generator by connecting a jumper from the ARM terminal to the FLD terminal for a few seconds while running the engine at a fast idle and reading the voltage. It should be at least 7.5 volts if the generator is good. Before you buy an alternator, you must find the source of the current draw on your battery. The easiest way to do this is to disconnect the NEG battery cable and connect a test light between the cable and the battery post. If the light lights, you have a short somewhere. Start disconnecting connections and watch the light. A digital camera can be helpful in this process. Take photos before disconnecting wires, so you can see how they were connected when you want to restore the wiring back to normal. Along with Steve's comments about the head lights, in most cases dim lights are not receiving the correct voltage or are incorrectly aimed. The lights on a 6 volt car need a minimum of 6 volts to give the proper illumination. I have found dimmer switches that drop 1.5 volts. Head light switches are another source of voltage drop. The stock wiring in a 39 is not sufficient for halogen lights. If you have them install or are going to install them, you must either change the wiring to a heavier gauge, or install a relay to feed the bulbs. Tom
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| JT Ford | -- 08-14-2014 @ 7:24 AM |
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Contrary to popular believe, halogen seal beam headligt bulbs are not higher amperage. I have a pair in my l950 made by Wagner and they are much brighter and they are white. I have tried halagen tail light bulbs and the original wiring will not handle the load. I didn't believe this to be true when I bought them but I go on Wagner's web site and it was true......
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| supereal | -- 08-14-2014 @ 8:38 AM |
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Halogen headlights are about 100 watts each, while standard sealed beams draw about 50 watts each. Under Ohm's Law (Watts equal Amps times Voltage) , so the standard amperage draw is about 16 amps for the two, while the halogens draw almost 35 amps for the pair. With the output for a standard generator almost equal to the halogen load, nothing is left for the rest of the vehicle. Factor in the usual loss in the dash switch and dimmer, output is too low for the headlights of either type to be nearly as bright as necessary for nightime driving. With halogens in my 47, they were less bright than the standard type. After the installation of an alternator and relay board, they are now nearly as bright as my modern vehicles on six volts.
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| JT Ford | -- 08-14-2014 @ 11:27 AM |
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Wagner H-6006 sealed beams are halogen. They are 7 inch, 6 volt they are 50/40 and draw 8.2 amps on high and 6.2 amps on low. There is a small halogen bulb inside the sealed beam unit,you can see it.The bulb is cooler to the feel when on. The are diffentlly brighter and they are whiter. Wagner do not make or sell the old 6006 any longer. That is the hole story.. Look it up........some NAPA stores sell them
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| len47merc | -- 08-14-2014 @ 12:27 PM |
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39Fordfan - I think it comes down to this: 1) How much do you drive at night? 2) How many accessories have been added or are planned to be added to your car? 3) Do you know how bright your lights can be if your original system is charging properly? If you now do, is this acceptable given the amount of night driving you do (assuming they are properly aligned)? 4) How much do you care about originality? Even if the answer to 4 is very little to none, TomO's comments and recommendations will very likely provide answers as to whether there is value in investing the money to convert. Keep in mind also you are talking '39 technologies and capabilities versus post-war. Steve
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| supereal | -- 08-14-2014 @ 1:12 PM |
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I'm not familiar with Wagner, even though I had them on my '47, and they were yellow, at best. All halogen lamps burn considerably hotter than regular bulbs, and require higher current. My amp measurements were made with our Amprobe. The headlights were from Drake. The NAPA site didn't give either the wattage or Lumen numbers. The figures given in the post would be correct for non-halogen lamps, which are doubled for two headlights. If the H-6006 are brighter than regular bulbs, but draw regular wattage, that would be great. I just haven't seen the evidence. This message was edited by supereal on 8-14-14 @ 1:41 PM
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| JT Ford | -- 08-14-2014 @ 4:26 PM |
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Superreal, You should like these bulbs then, you have a computor check it out. Wagner does not make a 6v. bulb like the older ones. When I bought them this Spring I didn't believe it either, but its true!
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| supereal | -- 08-14-2014 @ 7:49 PM |
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Don't doubt you, JT. I just haven't seen them. The Drake halogens use a small halogen bulb in a sealed beam- like sh*ll, and draw about twice the current. We have both the 6006 regular bulbs in our stock, and the Drake halogens. As stated, the Drakes draw about twice the current. Thanks for the exchange.
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| TomO | -- 08-15-2014 @ 6:47 AM |
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The 39 Ford does not have sealed beams and would have to be modified with 40 buckets and doors along with a small wiring change in order to use them. I went to Federal Mogul's web site and they do not give wattage specifications for the H6006 bulb. http://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?pNum=H6006&partType=PAR%2056%20Bulb%207%22%20%28178mm%29%20Dia&brandId=WL A halogen bulb will produce more light from the same wattage as an incandescent bulb, but I would like to see the specifications before I put them in my car. Tom
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| 39Fordfan | -- 08-15-2014 @ 2:04 PM |
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4d, What else did you have to do? Did you change to halogen lights? Did you have to use heavier gauge wire to the lights, or relays? How much does he charge for this? Thanks!
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| 39Fordfan | -- 08-15-2014 @ 2:23 PM |
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Hi Steve, Thanks for your posts. You just used a regular modern auto electrical shop for your issue? Or were they an old car specialist that I might not have in my town? I might look into doing something like going to an auto electric specialist as I don't really know how to use a meter or do proper diagnostics. I'm not a bad parts changer though. I got my VR from Little Dearborn and have never had issues with their stuff in the past. Point taken, though. I don't drive at night much in this car for good reason. It is not safe. Especially driving in a metro area. The lights have always been dim enough that no matter who is behind me, their lights are over running mine and illuminating my way, even when mine are on brights. If I want to go to a show that is far enough away, I have to tear myself away early to get home while there is still daylight. Especially as the days get shorter. I put a third LED brake lighter in the rear windshield and put foil inside of the taillight buckets to brighten them up. This has reduced the amount of screeching tires I hear behind me, when they can't see my tiny little dimly lit brake lights in the daylight. I do want to keep the appearance of original as long as I can stay safe.
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| 39Fordfan | -- 08-15-2014 @ 3:06 PM |
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TOMO, Thanks for the compliment about my painting! I am a car artist as I have found that a lot of guys have plenty of snapshots of their cars, but not a shot for the ages personalized for that car and owner that will outlast the car to hand down through the generations. I have enjoyed providing that shot for people. Thank-you also for the sound advice on tracking the electrical leak. I will see if I can figure it out, though I am puzzled because there aren't any accessories except the cigarette lighter, which I simply took the lighter part out, or obvious problems like lights left on. It has had this problem since I got it back from the restorer, though it seems to have gotten worse. You mentioned the generator test on a previous post and though my digital meter bounced wildly during the test, it appears the generator is putting out about 3 1/2 - 4 volts, when using your instructions. If I did measure correctly and the charging problem is the generator do you have a suggestion of a rebuilder, or should I just buy an original replacement at Little Dearborn if I go the Generator route again? That's what got me thinking about maybe getting an alternator to brighten the lights. I see what you are saying regarding the sealed beam lights not fitting my '39 buckets as mine are the original non sealed buckets and lens set-up. Given that, I don't want to change to sealed beam buckets, I'm wondering if there is another way to get halogens in there, short of just kludging in something myself?
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| len47merc | -- 08-15-2014 @ 6:02 PM |
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39Fordfan - the shop that I use has been in business in the local area for 71 years and is an auto/marine electrical business that specializes solely in starters, alternators and generators. The have done hundreds (likely thousands given their tenure) of 6V to 12V vintage car conversions and routinely handle the 6V alternator conversion but are not specific at all to classics. They were instrumental in convincing me to allow them to evaluate and make recommendations for repair/restoration of my original charging system that had been idled for 30+ years and guaranteed I would be satisfied with my original headlight brightness. They did not fail to satisfy. One of my neighbors has removed his gen and VR and basically given it to the shop based solely on their performance with my '47. Previously they had planned to convert to 12V but changed their mind after seeing the brightness of both front and rear lights. Previously I did not drive at night prior to having this work done as the lights were dim, and my wife quite frankly was giving me heck about her concerns for safety given we live in a very rural, poorly lit area. Now she is very comfortable driving at night. Seriously, I could not believe how bright the original headlights could be, both low and high beams, when properly fed and aligned. And the taillights are effective and adequately bright in the NC sunshine (note I did work hard on refreshing the grounding for the taillights prior to the charging system work). Previously I also was considering a LED brake light for the rear window but found after this work was done I no longer had the concern or need. If you go to a shop be sure to give them both your gen & VR for testing and validation. Personally I prefer to stay original as much as possible across the board and am glad I entrusted a well-experienced and qualified shop to handle this (again, wished I done it sooner). Btw - the testing that ID'd the armature as having a failure/short in the winding was free, the new 6V armature (which I installed myself) was ~$90, the shop provided me with a new quality US made bearing and a NOS bushing for free, the retesting and performance validation of the gen after armature and bearing installations was free, and the tested, validated and polarized VR was a pricey $95 but guess what - it worked! Worth every penny to me after the frustration I'd been through previously trying to ID the confusing issues I was having. Plug and play on everything after they were done. I cannot comment on '39s but TomO and supereal really know their stuff here. Based on their comments were it me I'd stay original versus modifying your headlights in ANY way, at least until you see how well they perform with a known and validated charging system generating and regulating correct output. There are two shops here in central NC providing this service that I trust and are well known nationally for their services. One routinely provides electrical system componentry and troubleshooting/rebuild/restoration services to EFV8 members, judges and suppliers, and the owner has two 990+ scoring Fords ('35 and a Phaeton) he restored/built himself sitting in his garage plus many others I'd give up (human) body parts to own. If you need a referral please let me know - glad to help in any way I can. Apologies for the 'long-windedness', it's a problem of mine. Good luck and hope this helps in some way! Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 8-15-14 @ 7:05 PM
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| 4dFordSC | -- 08-16-2014 @ 4:19 AM |
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<<4d, What else did you have to do? Did you change to halogen lights? Did you have to use heavier gauge wire to the lights, or relays? How much does he charge for this? Thanks!>> No wiring changes or relays were required. I initially tried a pair of Drake's halogen bulbs. The alternator handled them with no problem, but I could never seem to get them properly aligned. I reverted to Wagner incandescents, and they are quite satisfactory for me. Don't know what he charges now, but it was around $400 back then.
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| supereal | -- 08-16-2014 @ 7:38 AM |
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I feed my headlight relays with 12 guage wire directly from the battery side of the starter solenoid thru a 50 amp breaker. The original wiring, plus the loss in the dash switch and dimmer switch, reduces the power to the headlights until they are no longer effective or safe. I agree with 4d regarding trying to adjust the Drake halogen lamps. They use a halogen bulb that seems to not be centered in the reflector. I ran out of adjustment on one side before I could match the other lamp. If anyone wants the photo of the simple relay, I'll post it again. Now that the days are getting shorter, good lighting becomes even more important.. I realize that to some, any change from original is heresy, but safety trumps that concern. This message was edited by supereal on 8-16-14 @ 7:39 AM
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| 4dFordSC | -- 08-16-2014 @ 10:07 AM |
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Supereal: Did you replace the wiring from the relay to the headlights, or simply splice into the original wiring harness? 4dFordSC
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| supereal | -- 08-16-2014 @ 1:16 PM |
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I fitted the relay board with wires capped with bullet connectors. To install, you simply disconnect the original wires to the headlights at the driver's side of the radiator yoke and reconnect them to the relay board, then connect the board outlet wires to the original wires to the lights. This way, no alteration of the original loom is required. The only additional wire is from the battery side of the solenoid to the bus bar connecting to the relays. I do install a ground wire to the relays just to be sure. The relays are Echlin ST541 sold by NAPA.
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| 4dFordSC | -- 08-16-2014 @ 5:48 PM |
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Very nice. Thanks.:)
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| 4dFordSC | -- 08-19-2014 @ 6:29 PM |
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Supereal: I sent you a PM with several questions, and wondered if you received it? Thanks.
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| supereal | -- 08-20-2014 @ 1:39 PM |
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Yes, I did reply. We have been updating our computer system, and it may have fallen thru the cracks. Computers are wonderful until they aren't. We have had a constant problem with hackers, so the changes were necessary. You can try again, and I'll watch for it.
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| 39Fordfan | -- 08-20-2014 @ 3:59 PM |
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Thanks to all who have posted. It is greatly appreciated. To summarize, it doesn't sound like the 6 volt positive ground alternator is going to be useful to me as the only halogens that seem to work with my application are the sealed beams which won't work with my '39 unless I use '40 buckets. If I really want to take the leap, it would probably be best to just go all the way to a 12 volt system, which I don't want to do. So I'm thinking I'm getting another generator at Little Dearborn. I'm going to track down a leak in my system. And I am going to try and improve grounding where I can. Does anyone else have any other ideas on how to brighten old 6 volt headlights?
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| supereal | -- 08-21-2014 @ 2:43 PM |
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The relay panel will brighten your headlights considerably, even if they are not halogens. The problem is inadequate old wiring and the switches in the system. The dimmer switch, alone, can reduce voltage at the headlight by nearly half, and the repros are not much better.
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| TomO | -- 08-24-2014 @ 9:55 AM |
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39Fordfan, I am sorry that I took so long to get back to you, but I have been at the CNM in Springfield. The inexpensive digital meters made in China, do not work very will in our old cars and do not seem to be very accurate. I bought one at a swap meet a couple of weeks ago, and it showed my battery was at 5 volts, when my old reliable analog meter showed the correct 6.5Volts. It would not give a steady reading when the engine was running. The voltage readings that you posted are so far out of the normal range, that I suspect that your voltmeter is very inaccurate. I don't know where you live, but in your situation I would try to find a local repair shop with an older technician that can help with your electrical problems. It sounds like you have multiple issues and need someone who can isolate each problem and the provide a fix. It will probably be less expensive than replacing parts or altering the car. Tom
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| murphy 1941 | -- 09-02-2014 @ 11:13 AM |
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Supereal, you mentioned with your alternator you had a relay board?. I just received an alternator from joes, please tell me about a relay board and do I need one one the 1941 coupe? Thank you, John Early Super Deluxe 41 Coupe
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| TomO | -- 09-03-2014 @ 6:55 AM |
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Supereal has a relay board to handle his headlights. AS he mentioned, the voltage drop to the head lights can be as much as 3 volts due to corrosion in the system. I prefer to correct the voltage drop, by repairing the switches and connections. I disassemble the switches, clean the contact surfaces and coat them with a corrosion inhibiting conductive grease. Vaseline works well also. When I complete the repair, there is .1 volt drop across the switch. The dimmer switch is seldom used these days and it builds up corrosion that will drop the voltage going to the headlights. Using a relay board, reduces the current through the switch and provides a good source for 6Volts to the headlights. Tom
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| supereal | -- 09-03-2014 @ 11:31 AM |
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Tom covered most of your question. I built a relay board to handle the current draw of my halogen headlights. The original wiring just wasn't heavy enough, in spite of cleaning, tightening, and even replacing the dimmer switch. The addition of the alternator was due to the fact that the output for halogens would take everything the generator could provide, particularly at low speeds.
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| 39Fordfan | -- 08-21-2015 @ 11:02 PM |
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After replacing the Generator and Voltage Regulator I've taken the '39 to an old time auto electric expert. He said the gen' was producing perfectly, but that these tended to be a bit underpowered at idle. Since the gen' was newly remanned he put on a smaller pulley to get it to spin faster. He also determined that I don't have any shorts or electrical leaks anywhere on the car. But when I get into a place where traffic is heavy and its hot out and I have to sit idling, after about 5 to 10 minutes the car will start to act like the battery is draining down. I can see the in-dash voltmeter starting to descend below the "N" and the engine will begin to splutter and miss until I can get the car back up to hi-way speed. Then it sorts itself out and settles down and purrs again. I have a modern cylindrical coil that sits over on the inside fender. Since they are cheap, I replaced that too, to no avail. The battery is about 2 years old. It has not had a tune up for a long time. One other note is that I had a modern temperature gauge installed conspicuously so I can keep a better eye on it. It seems everytime I have this issue the engine gets hot - somewhere around 200, maybe its even risen near 210 according to the new gauge. Is it possible I've got a couple of problems? Like maybe a vapor lock when it gets hot? I'm not sure why that would affect things like not being able the honk the horn? Thanks for any further input.
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| TomO | -- 08-22-2015 @ 8:21 AM |
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You need to have your battery checked with a load tester. If it is OK, you will need to check your fuel pump output pressure for 2.5-3.0 pressure. If it is less than that, you can have vapor lock when your engine temperature is above 200F. I would also look into having the radiator and block cooling passages cleaned. You may be able to bring the temperature down. Tom
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| sunflower | -- 08-25-2015 @ 8:15 AM |
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Hi Tom,that is a good way to test for a short on my car, do I disconnect the - side of my battery even on a 6 volt battery to find a short? Thanks sunflower
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| TomO | -- 08-31-2015 @ 7:13 AM |
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Sunflower, the procedure that I gave is for a positive grounded system. For negative grounded system, you would disconnect the POS terminal and connect the test light between the cable and the battery. The procedure is the same for both 6 and 12 volt systems. Tom
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