Topic: Stumbly 36...carb??...or ign??

Grant	-- 08-09-2014 @ 8:29 AM
	Yesterday, as a final step in preparation for the Central National Meet, I decided to take our '36 for a 75 mile test run on the highway. After about 15 miles at 55 to 60 mph, there was a noticeable stumbly hesitation developing, like an on and off surge. At first it seemed to go away with acceleration. But bit by bit the recurring hesitation got worse. The problem does not appear to be vapor lock. At the halfway mark, before turning around to head for home, I disconnected the gas feed line to the mechanical fuel pump and ran the vehicle hooked up solely to the electric unit (Airtex E8902 6 volt low pressure ... mounted under the left running board with a protective cover ... operates off a switch under the dash ... normally used only as back-up on a hot day). The issue continued to deteriorate. I barely got up the big hill in the last half mile to our house. Accelerating from a stopped position, this '36 is now chugging like a 9N tractor. Second isn't as bad, especially in the top half of the rpm's in that gear, but after shifting into third there is near-zero capability to continue accelerating. This morning I checked the wire connections at each spark plug. They are fine. Then I removed the top of the carburetor (model 97). The float seems to be okay, and the inside of the carb looks pretty clean. Next I started the engine, and backed out of the garage. It was idling roughly, and the sound of the exhaust is badly wrong. Turning in both adjustment screws a bit (about half a turn) resulted in a better idle at slightly lower rpm than before, but the engine is just plain gutless going up and down the driveway .......... almost as if there are several dead cylinders. Overheating did not occur. Yesterday, as soon as the car was parked, I went into the house and got a meat thermometer. Coolant in the radiator was at 188 degrees. The under-dash SW heat gauge showed 182. So what hath the flathead gods wrought this time ??? Has an ignition malfunction somehow magically developed literally overnight? This '36 ran fine Thursday afternoon on a two mile return trip into the local village. Or instead, could there be some sort of fuel delivery issue inside the carburetor? I am discouraged, to put it mildly, and have no idea how to diagnose this one.
fenbach	-- 08-09-2014 @ 8:35 AM
	condenser maybe? or coil? both fairly simple to swap out. or point gap? easy to check with a dwell meter.
JM	-- 08-09-2014 @ 10:12 AM
	I agree with fenback. Sounds just like my '35 ran at one time. The more I tried to drive it the worse it got. Just barely made it home. The problem was in the distributor. Condensor and poor quality points. Points were burned and pitted. Rebuilt another distributor with a set of good quality points, replaced condensor, and installed a new rewound coil by Skip Haney. Has run perfect now for the last 10k miles. John
supereal	-- 08-09-2014 @ 2:18 PM
	I also suspect the condenser. If it has gone open, it is likely the points will need to be replaced. I carry a spare condenser in my road kit. It is fitted with clip leads, and can be substituted by putting it between a ground and the input to the coil. Years ago, it was fairly rare to have a condenser failure, but today's are often poor, even when new. The condenser serves two purposes: to minimize point arcing, and to form a circuit to allow fast charge and discharge of the coil. If your coil is original, it should be rebuilt or replaced before you take a long trip
Grant	-- 08-11-2014 @ 8:35 PM
	Thank you, gentlemen, for your responses. This vehicle came with a supposedly rebuilt distributor assembly as a spare. It was kept in the rumble seat compartment, and intended for use if repairs on a trip became necessary. Today I removed the old distributor and installed the spare as a replacement. The work took 6 1/2 hours. The engine now no longer runs at all. There is no spark at the plugs. Another club member was on the phone earlier this evening, and advises that the best approach will be to send the entire unit away for rebuilding. I think he is likely 100% right. Has anyone out there recently had an early V8 distributor like the one in our '36 re-done by a trustworthy rebuilder? I would like to deal with a reputable professional shop that has a KRW fixture ...... or similar equipment ...... so that the newly rebuilt unit can be properly timed and fully set up, ready to install, before it is shipped back here.
joe b	-- 08-12-2014 @ 6:03 AM
	Use Bubba's Ignition 1330 Main St. Speedway In. 46224 1 888 809 3835 info@bubbashotrodshop.com They have good reviews and good info on their website
TomO	-- 08-12-2014 @ 10:42 AM
	Grant, I don't know where you are located, but Yesteryear Ford Parts in Livonia, MI is a reliable source as well as Skip Haney in FL. I would look at the points in the spare distributor and see if they are just corroded from long time storage. I use a fine burnishing blade made by Jonard Industries. They are available at electronic supply stores. Here is a link to the website, where you can find a local distributor. http://www.jonard.com/jonard-ecommerce/control/product/~product_id=10043 I agree that the condenser or coil is the most likely suspects. Skip Haney has the best turnaround times for the coil rebuild. I hope to see you and your 36 at the meet. Tom
Grant	-- 08-12-2014 @ 5:11 PM
	Thank you, Tom and Joe, for your recommendations. I did gently clean the contacts on the points and rotor in our spare distributor assembly before installation. They looked good. It hadn't occurred to me to ask Dave at Yesteryear if he could do a rebuild job. The last time I was at his shop, it was not far from Mason MI near Lansing.......about 185 miles west of here. It's an impressive place, and I have the impression that Dave can fix just about anything. A search in this area today...... southwestern Ontario ....... produced absolute zero. In terms of ready-to-go parts sitting on the shelf, no one seems to have what our car needs.
supereal	-- 08-12-2014 @ 7:58 PM
	Just be sure that any shop you choose has a distributor machine such as a Sun or Heyer. I know Skip has one. Ours gets lots of use. Interesting is that these machines are now being built again, albeit at a price of about $5000! We bought two working Suns for less than a hundred bucks years ago. Any engine using non electronic ignition can benefit from their use in the hands of an experienced operator.
TomO	-- 08-13-2014 @ 6:55 AM
	Grant, to determine whether it is the distributor or the coil/condenser, connect an ohmmeter or a powered test light between the coil contact on the distributor and ground. Wen you crank the engine over, the light or ohm meter will show when the points are open and closed. If you get a 0 ohms reading, the points are good. You can use the ohm meter to check for an open or shorted condenser, but the best test is replacing it with one from NAPA. Tom
Grant	-- 08-14-2014 @ 6:02 AM
	I spoke to Dave Groh in Michigan yesterday. It sounds like he will be able to start building us two properly functional '36 distributor assemblies next week. Thank you again to everyone who responded on this topic. I had hoped to meet up with many of you at the Central National Meet in Springfield starting Monday. Regrettably, that is not going to happen. My reservation at the Crowne Plaza has been cancelled, so that room at the host hotel is currently still available for any club member who would like to book it.
TomO	-- 08-14-2014 @ 6:09 AM
	Grant, I am sorry that you will not be able to attend the meet. If I had a good coil, condenser and distributor for your car. I would have gladly offered to send it to you. I have attended a few meets without my car and still had a lot of fun. Tom
Grant	-- 08-15-2014 @ 12:35 PM
	Hey TomO......and anyone else attending the Central National Meet.....I hope to have a chance to chat with you there. I'm going after all, because an incredibly nice fellow member has offered to let me drive HIS '36 at the meet. Unbelievable! What a club this is.
JM	-- 08-15-2014 @ 4:29 PM
	Good to hear you will make it to the CNM after all. I leave for Springfield early tomorrow morning. Two day drive from MD at about 850 miles. Will be driving a black '35 fordor slantback sedan that will be on show field in Rouge. John
Grant	-- 09-09-2014 @ 1:53 PM
	After quite a bit more work, our '36 is still running just plain awful. At the Central National Meet in Springfield, which was terrific and a lot of fun, I obtained two rebuilt 40B distributor assemblies from Bubba. Very nice man. A pleasure to deal with. One of those assemblies is on the car now. It didn't seem to make any difference at all in correcting the problem, so I took off each 18-12116 terminal plate and thoroughly cleaned up all four connection sockets as well as the ends of the spark plug wires which were coated with electric grease prior to re-assembly. No change. Lumpy idle, won't stay running when it's cold, and the exhaust still sounds like a tractor. Using a Gale Hall Mile-O-Meter as a vacuum gauge, I worked on the engine again this morning. When cold with the choke pulled out about 1/3 of the way, the needle on the gauge flutters back and forth between 11 and 12. As the engine starts to warm up, the reading wobbles between 12 and 13. After a few minutes, with the choke finally pushed all the way in and the engine idling choppily, the needle on the gauge flicks back and forth between 13 and 14. Page 9 of my 1935 to 1950 MoToR's Auto Repair Manual shows a chart of various common vacuum gauge readings. Figure 14 is pretty much exactly what seems to be going on: "If needle fluctuates below normal with engine idling it indicates an air leak in intake manifold or gasket, or carburetor gasket." The manual suggests "Check for intake manifold air leaks" but there are no directions on how to go about doing that. What would the best approach be to test for such an air leak? Could this have been the problem all along??? Was the car slowly developing an intake manifold air leak on August 8th when it was taken out for the highway test run? I cannot hear or feel any vacuum leaks at the carb or around the base of the manifold. Might connections to the Columbia rear end somehow be involved? Curiously, I noticed today that the intake manifold was VERY hot below the carburetor. Towards the front and rear, the intake was a little bit warm but the "tower" portion of the manifold onto which the carb mounts was so hot that I couldn't stand to keep my fingers on it for more than a couple of seconds. Maybe not hot enough to fry an egg, but nonetheless really really hot. And that heat had developed with no more than five minutes of idling time. What the he** is causing that? Thinking about the problem as I sit here typing this, it's almost as if the timing has suddenly gone very badly wrong.
BrianCT	-- 09-09-2014 @ 7:27 PM
	Since you have a good ignition system now, I would look for a plugged jet in the carburator. You said it looked fairly clean but you can't see into the jets from the top. The manifold is hot under the carb because exhaust gas is circulated through to vaporise the gas.
TomO	-- 09-10-2014 @ 7:50 AM
	Grant, I would start from scratch. Do you have good spark at all plugs? If you short out the plugs one at a time, do all cylinders have the same effect on the idle speed? Remove the plugs and examine their condition, are any of them black and sooty? What are your compression readings? The intake will get warm under the carburetor, exhaust gasses are routed there to warm the fuel mixture so it will ignite easier. Low and unsteady vacuum can be caused by other things than a vacuum leak. To check for a vacuum leak, you can use propane. The engine should speed up when the unlit propane torch is near the leak. Tom
Grant	-- 09-12-2014 @ 10:12 AM
	Brian and Tom......thank you for your input. Brian .......... As you know from the title of this topic "Stumbly '36...carb??...or ign?", I have been wondering since the outset if our carburetor might be at fault, and a fouled jet could be what's going on here. But having recently had the experience of watching a similar Stromberg 97 pump fuel at idle all over a friend's intake, block and hot exhaust manifolds....... twice in a three day period ....... I'm thinking about getting rid of the 97 on a permanent basis and switching to a more modern carburetor. Tom ............ Here's an update: Our compression tester kit for some reason does not supply an adapter which fits the spark plug threads in our heads. That test will have to wait until I can find a fitting which will work. 11 September Experiment _______________________ Regarding the cylinders, I refer to them as 1, 2, 3 and 4 on the right (passenger's) side of the engine, and 5, 6, 7 and 8 on the left side. Cylinders 1 and 5 are at the front, closest to the radiator, with 4 and 8 at the back closest to the firewall. Observations First...... With the engine warmed up and idling, the spark plug wires were removed one at a time and held up close to the top of their respective Autolite BT4 plug. All eight have a big fat bright spark jumping to the top of the plug as long as the open metal end of the wire is held about 1/4 of an inch away. Then when the wire is pulled back several inches, two different things occur: (i) for plugs 2, 3, 5 and 8, there is no difference whatsoever in the way the engine idles (ii) for plugs 1, 4, 6 and 7, the engine runs terribly and almost stalls. Any thoughts on what this might mean? Second...... Later on, one at a time, the spark plugs were removed, cleaned with a wire brush and sandpaper, and had the gap set at .030 . Visual inspection showed: Plug 1 very sooty, left valve inside chamber beigey white Plug 2 very sooty, left valve inside chamber beigey white Plug 3 not as much soot, right valve inside chamber beige Plug 4 very sooty, no valve coloration Plug 5 very sooty, left valve in chamber beige Plug 6 very sooty including valves, chamber also really sooty Plug 7 very sooty including valves, sooty chamber but less than 6 Plug 8 a little soot on plug, chamber sooty like 7, right valve in chamber beige With all plugs re-installed, the wires were attached and the engine was started again. Cleaning and gapping the spark plugs has made no difference at all. The engine runs as poorly as before. Third...... With the assistance of an attractive friend last night sitting in the roadster to operate its starter button and on/off ignition switch, the spark plugs were removed one at a time and held up against the block with their plug wires attached. There was definitely a visible spark jumping across the gap at the bottom of all eight plugs. 12 September Experiment _______________________ This morning with the engine warmed up and running at idle, I poured about 6 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil into the gas tank (current level ~2 gallons) and then drizzled another 2 ounces into the carburetor a little bit at a time. This makes no difference. The engine continues to run stumbly as if some cylinders are not firing. About ten minutes after shutting the car off I noticed two pools of moisture on the concrete pad, with numerous sooty spots in them, below where the chrome extensions mount at the end of the exhaust pipes. The one on the right was elongated and about the size of half a football. The one on the left was similar in appearance but much smaller. On the concrete floor of the garage where the '36 was running yesterday, there are a few similar sooty spots. And the inside edge of the rear bumper also has a sooty coating. Dry, not oily, pretty much the same as what had built up on the spark plugs. So, what does all of this indicate? I have several questions: 1. Does the car still have some sort of ignition issue? 2. If so, could it be a faulty ignition switch which is intermittently cutting out? Or some sort of a bad connection in the wire leading to or from the ignition switch? 3. Why is there so much more moisture coming out of the right tailpipe? 4. Is it time to consider installing a professionally rebuilt carburetor? 5. If the answer to 4 is yes, could I simply adapt a postwar 8BA like one that works so well on our '50?
TomO	-- 09-13-2014 @ 9:40 AM
	See my answers in CAPS to your questions. You have a fuel delivery problem to the left side of the intake manifold. With the engine warmed up and idling, the spark plug wires were removed one at a time and held up close to the top of their respective Autolite BT4 plug. All eight have a big fat bright spark jumping to the top of the plug as long as the open metal end of the wire is held about 1/4 of an inch away. SPARK IS GOOD. Your distributor and coil are working fine. Then when the wire is pulled back several inches, two different things occur: (i) for plugs 2, 3, 5 and 8, there is no difference whatsoever in the way the engine idles THIS IS A PROBLEM. The right side of the carburetor and intake are working correctly, but the left side is not working correctly. If the cylinders were pulling their load, the engine speed would be reduced as each wire was removed. You are basically running with a 4 cylinder engine. Due to the way it started, I would look for a plugged jet in the carburetor or an obstruction in the intake manifold. (ii) for plugs 1, 4, 6 and 7, the engine runs terribly and almost stalls. NORMAL OPERATION Any thoughts on what this might mean? Second...... Later on, one at a time, the spark plugs were removed, cleaned with a wire brush and sandpaper, and had the gap set at .030 . Visual inspection showed: Plug 1 very sooty, left valve inside chamber beigey white Plug 2 very sooty, left valve inside chamber beigey white Plug 3 not as much soot, right valve inside chamber beige Plug 4 very sooty, no valve coloration Plug 5 very sooty, left valve in chamber beige Plug 6 very sooty including valves, chamber also really sooty Plug 7 very sooty including valves, sooty chamber but less than 6 Plug 8 a little soot on plug, chamber sooty like 7, right valve in chamber beige THIS COULD BE NORMAL WITH THE FUEL PROBLEM YOU ARE HAVING With all plugs re-installed, the wires were attached and the engine was started again. Cleaning and gapping the spark plugs has made no difference at all. The engine runs as poorly as before. Third...... With the assistance of an attractive friend last night sitting in the roadster to operate its starter button and on/off ignition switch, the spark plugs were removed one at a time and held up against the block with their plug wires attached. There was definitely a visible spark jumping across the gap at the bottom of all eight plugs. 12 September Experiment _______________________ This morning with the engine warmed up and running at idle, I poured about 6 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil into the gas tank (current level ~2 gallons) and then drizzled another 2 ounces into the carburetor a little bit at a time. This makes no difference. The engine continues to run stumbly as if some cylinders are not firing. About ten minutes after shutting the car off I noticed two pools of moisture on the concrete pad, with numerous sooty spots in them, below where the chrome extensions mount at the end of the exhaust pipes. The one on the right was elongated and about the size of half a football. The one on the left was similar in appearance but much smaller. THE SOOTY DEPOSITS ARE FROM THE POOR COMBUSTION AND MAY CLEAR UP WHEN YOU ARE RUNNING ON 8 CYLINDERS On the concrete floor of the garage where the '36 was running yesterday, there are a few similar sooty spots. And the inside edge of the rear bumper also has a sooty coating. Dry, not oily, pretty much the same as what had built up on the spark plugs. So, what does all of this indicate? I have several questions: 1. Does the car still have some sort of ignition issue? I DOUBT IT 2. If so, could it be a faulty ignition switch which is intermittently cutting out? Or some sort of a bad connection in the wire leading to or from the ignition switch? FIX THE FUEL PROBLEM FIRST 3. Why is there so much more moisture coming out of the right tailpipe? 4. Is it time to consider installing a professionally rebuilt carburetor? MAYBE, BUT I WOULD TRY TO DETERMINE WHY THE LEFT SIDE DOESN'T WORK FIRST. 5. If the answer to 4 is yes, could I simply adapt a postwar 8BA like one that works so well on our '50? IT IS EASIER TO INSTALL A MODEL 59 AND THERE IS LITTLE DIFFERENCE IN PERFORMANCE Tom
supereal	-- 09-13-2014 @ 11:09 AM
	Maybe I missed it in this long thread, but have you checked to see the delivery of fuel to the carb? If your tank level is 2 gal, more or less, as stated, you may be trying to run on the contamination of the dregs in the tank. I would drain it and see what is in there. We see lots of bad gas at our shop when poor performance is reported. Install an inline filter. If you find lots of particle contamination, it is likely the carb is full of it, causing the loss of one of the barrels. Be careful with that much MMO on a nearly dry tank. Oil fouled plug are usually the result.
Grant	-- 09-15-2014 @ 11:22 AM
	Thanks again for your assistance, gentlemen. The gas tank was drained and cleaned several months ago. Lots of gas is getting to the carb..........I undid the line and and let it pump into a coffee can as a test. An in-line see-through filter has been purchased and will be installed ahead of the fuel pump. I will let you know what turns up inside the carburetor and the intake manifold.
len47merc	-- 09-15-2014 @ 12:19 PM
	Grant - just a suggestion here to place your in-line fuel filter under the car close to the fuel tank to prevent any debris from making it into your fuel line and possibly clogging it. Plus it keeps your engine compartment aesthetically cleaner and closer to original (if that's a priority for you). Steve
TomO	-- 09-16-2014 @ 7:10 AM
	If you do install the filter, use threaded fittings with a steel line in and out of the filter. If you intend to use a flexible rubber line, use hose barbs and good quality worm drive clamps. Do not use Teflon tape on any of the fittings, it will shred and clog your fuel system. Any loss of vacuum on the input to the fuel pump, will make it more difficult for the pump to prime itself after sitting. Because the pump is above the tank outlet, these cars are harder to prime the pump than cars with the pump below or at the same level as the outlet. Tom
Grant	-- 09-17-2014 @ 8:23 AM
	Thanks, Steve and Tom. There already is a filter at the rear of the electric Airtex fuel pump, about a foot and a half ahead of the gas tank. Maybe somehow a small piece of genuine Ford crud managed to run through that filter? I hope to be able to get the carburetor off tonight or tomorrow..........update to follow.
Grant	-- 09-21-2014 @ 10:47 AM
	After removing the carburetor again, I reamed out the jets (or what I think are called the jets) by inserting a straightened-out paper clip from the bottom. The left side was totally plugged up with little bits of grunge. That paper clip is now permanently a part of our onboard tool kit. A see-through inline filter has been installed between the end of the gas line on the firewall and the mechanical fuel pump inlet. The electric pump is switched off. There is lots of fuel at the carburetor. With the carb re-installed, the engine starts immediately but idles a little rough. Nowhere near as nice as before all this nonsense started last month. Two test drives have been done, covering about twenty miles at speeds up to 65 mph. Acceleration is sluggish at best and it takes much too long to get the car up to 50 mph, let alone 65. Downhill helps. The carburetor is going to come off again for partial disassembly and thorough cleaning. A Stromberg 9447K full gasket kit will be installed. Can anyone recommend a top quality carb cleaner product? If nice acceleration and snappy throttle response cannot be achieved with clean-up and fresh gaskets, I may attempt a rebuild of this 97. The rebuild kits which are available on the Internet do not appear to include emulsion tubes. Do I need to buy these as well? Will there be a problem with removing the jets? Or any other internal components? Are special tools required?
ken ct.	-- 09-21-2014 @ 2:12 PM
	A partial disassembly of carb is useless. It all must come apart. Yes you will need a special jet wrench a modified screw driver for the power valve and knowledge of how to remove emultion tubes [very easy when you know how].ET's never come in kits they can be cleaned and repaired if needed. ken ct. 1-203-260-5945 cell if you need more help.
TomO	-- 09-22-2014 @ 5:58 AM
	They don't have the lye based cleaners available any more. Most of the current cleaners sold in buckets do not do as good a job as a 50% solution of Simple green. It is not a good idea to use metal probes to clean the jets and small openings in carburetors. You can use compressed air blown in the direction opposite of the fuel flow in combination with Gumout spray, also in the opposite direction of the fuel flow. If you are not familiar with the Stromburg carburetor, I would send it out to be rebuilt. Good Stromburgs are hard to come by and a mistake in disassmbly can damage it. Tom
Grant	-- 09-25-2014 @ 4:21 AM
	I have spoken to Ken Isidor, a club member in Connecticut. In his opinion the problem may be ethanol fuel causing internal disintegration in the mechanical fuel pump, which may also require rebuilding. Another see-through inline filter will be installed between the carburetor and the mechanical fuel pump. Our carb has been shipped to Ken for a complete rebuild. When it comes back and has been re-installed, I will put another post here on Forum. This message was edited by Grant on 9-25-14 @ 12:48 PM
TomO	-- 09-25-2014 @ 6:07 AM
	You may also be getting debris from the flex line or the fuel line. Take the top off of the fuel pump and examine the debris. If it is rubber like, it is from the flex line, if it is brownish in color, it is from the fuel line. Tom
Grant	-- 10-06-2014 @ 5:52 PM
	Update............... While awaiting the return of our carburetor, another fuel filter was installed. This time, in the middle of the steel line which runs from the mechanical fuel pump to the carb. The freshly rebuilt 97 arrived on Friday. It's a beauty. Ken says that it was in very good condition and turned out well. After installation of the carb with a double base gasket between it and the vacuum plate for the Columbia rear end, the exhaust sounds much better and while idling there are no more sooty deposits building up on the garage floor. But it doesn't idle 100% smoothly, and the engine is acting like it has a miss. Out on the road, performance in 1st and 2nd is much improved. However acceleration in 3rd is still quite poor and it takes a long time to get up to 60 mph. No debris is visible in either of the see-through filters under the hood. In a conversation with Ken earlier today, he recommended taking the carburetor off and then removing the Columbia rear end vacuum plate which previously had been left in place. Apparently some 1935 and 1936 intake manifolds have a hole between the studs which is some kind of heat passage. Gasket failure may have occurred there. A double gasket will have to be installed. When the carb is removed......again......I also intend to apply my wife's Filter Queen vacuum to the holes in the top of the intake manifold to see what, if anything, comes out of there.
dean333	-- 10-06-2014 @ 8:45 PM
	Your post said you already installed double gaskets......?? TIM CARLIG
len47merc	-- 10-07-2014 @ 5:44 AM
	You are indeed a brave man to use your wife's Filter Queen vacuum on your intake! Steve
TomO	-- 10-07-2014 @ 8:37 AM
	Grant, your plugs may be fouled from your previous carburetor problems. Examine them and replace if necessary. If you are still having problems, go through the cylinder balance test again. I would also try a can of Seafoam in a full tank of gas, sometimes that clears up fuel related problems. Tom
Grant	-- 10-08-2014 @ 7:42 AM
	Tim......... Sorry about the poor communication on my part. There are four gaskets in use on top of the intake manifold. Two are mounted below the Columbia rear axle vacuum plate. Then two more go onto that plate before installing the Stromberg 97 carburetor. Yesterday I worked on the World's Orneriest Roadster for another four hours. It looks like some progress has been made. Step-by-step notes were recorded. Further comments and recommendations from anyone and everyone would be welcome. Two things were inadvertently not reported in my last post. First, the tank is now full to the top with fresh 10% ethanol gas (it was down to about two gallons, in which there was quite a bit of MMO). Second, part way through the last unsatisfactory test drive, the air cleaner was removed. Neither made any difference in the vehicle's performance. In numerical order, this is the latest work done: ONE Remove hose from line on left side of intake that operates under-dash SW vacuum gauge. Attach hose from Gale Hall Mile O Meter and observe reading when engine is warmed up and the choke knob is pushed all the way in up to the dashboard. Needle is flicking back and forth between 12 1/2 and 14, pretty much the same as reported in post on September 9th. TWO Shut engine off. Remove air cleaner. Disconnect fuel line at carburetor and remove carb. THREE Remove Columbia vacuum plate. Ken is right. There is a hole between the two front studs, not quite the size of a dime. The bottom of the gasket which was between the vacuum plate and the manifold has a more-or-less circular 1/16 inch thick sooty deposit, directly above that hole, but the gasket is intact and has not burned through. Examination using a flashlight indicates that the passageway is open and unobstructed. FOUR Thoroughly clean out all previously sucked up foreign matter from wife's Filter Queen. FIVE Tape off little hole and right big intake hole. Press rubberized end of Filter Queen hose down tight against manifold above left big intake hole. Operate vacuum cleaner. Look inside Filter Queen. Nothing came up out of intake manifold. SIX Tape off little hole and left big hole. Same high-tech vacuuming operation applied on right big hole. Look inside Filter Queen. Nothing came out of intake manifold. SEVEN Tape off both big holes and operate Filter Queen with hose held down firmly above little hole between carburetor mounting studs. Look inside Filter Queen. Once again, nothing came out of intake manifold. EIGHT Clean off vacuum plate and inspect for cracks or fractures. None are visible. NINE Re-install carburetor with two fresh 40-9447 gaskets underneath. Columbia vacuum plate is temporarily eliminated, and is laying safely with hose still attached, on left front fender beside cowl. TEN Start engine with Mile O Meter re-installed as in Step ONE. Reading remains identical, with needle flicking back and forth up to but not past 14. ELEVEN Remove Mile O Meter, re-connect under-dash vacuum gauge hose, and then remove carburetor again (for the seventh or eighth time.....can't remember any more). TWELVE Put Columbia vacuum plate back where it belongs, and re-install carb. Four nice new carb-to-intake gaskets are used. THIRTEEN Start engine. Let it warm up. Nothing is different. Still has choppy idle. Using a dime, back out idle screws at base of carb a little bit. RPMs increase slightly, but the idle doesn't smooth out. FOURTEEN Shut off engine and tighten circular clamps at both ends of Columbia vacuum plate rubber hose (one at vacuum plate.......the other at what appears to be some sort of brass valve mounted on the left side of the engine below the firewall). FIFTEEN Start engine again. Still has the same undesirable idle. Nothing has changed. SIXTEEN Re-install Mile O Meter as in Steps ONE and TEN. The needle continues to move back and forth as before. SEVENTEEN Clean and gap spark plugs. Install new round spark plug seat gaskets. EIGHTEEN Start engine and check Mile O Meter reading. Very interesting. Needle is still flicking back and forth, but reading has changed to a range of 14 1/2 to 15. Engine is allowed to run for several minutes. Idle has not improved at all, but reading is staying in its new position between 14 1/2 and 15. NINETEEN Remove Mile O Meter and re-install under-dash vacuum gauge hose. TWENTY Re-install air cleaner and park car inside garage. TWENTY-ONE Sneak wife's Filter Queen back into basement closet while she is still out shopping. TWENTY-TWO Go into house. Pour stiff drink. Contemplate results of latest repair attempt until next morning when discussion on EFV8 Forum is updated. OBSERVATIONS I've been a faithful flathead fender fondler for many years, and have never seen a vehicle misbehave quite like this. It appears that at least three malfunctions have been happening at the same time.......ignition, carburetor, and bad spark plug base gaskets. What was going on with the plugs? Was there a compression loss occurring? Is that what the Mile O Meter is indicating with its new higher reading? As a university student many moons ago, transportation was a '49 Ford Tudor and later on a '30 Model A coupe. The old-time mechanic who did service work on them liked to say "It's a Ford, so the problem will be something stupid". Keeping that advice in mind, is it possible that I've overlooked something simple and straight forward that ought to be done? Does the car perhaps want a new set of plug wires? They seem to be providing lots of spark, but maybe new wires would perform even better? Is it possible that a nice thick ground wire should be installed between the engine and the body? Or between the engine and the chassis? Or both? Can someone direct me to a site which provides instructions for correctly setting the idle screws on the carburetor? They are not provided in Ford's 1932 to 1948 service manual. A test drive currently cannot be done. In this area, east of Detroit, we have had a deluge of rain over the last four days. Our farm laneway and dirt concession road are a mud bath. No point in getting the car and a new set of Firestone 6.00/16 whitewalls filthy. Hopefully by the weekend conditions will be improved and the car can then be driven again.
TomO	-- 10-08-2014 @ 8:39 AM
	The spark plugs evidently needed cleaning. Now that you have a fresh tank of gas and clean plugs, try adjusting the carburetor by seating both needles and backing out each screw 1.5 turns. Start the car and set the idle speed at 450 RPM. If you don't have an optical tach, guess at the speed by getting the idle speed as slow as you can and keep it running. Now turn both screws 1/4 turn in while watching your vacuum gauge. If the vacuum drops, back out 1/4 turn at a time until the vacuum is steady and at its highest point. If it does not drop, keep turning in 1/4 at a time until the engine smooths out and the highest reading is obtained. If you do not have a vacuum gauge, turn the screws in 1/4 turn at a time until the engine seems like it will die, then back them out 1/2 turn. You can adjust them 1/8 turn in either direction to smooth out the idle. If this doesn't work, do the cylinder balance test of grounding out the plugs one at a time and note how engine speed is affected. The cylinder(s) that have no effect on idle speed are not working correctly. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 10-8-14 @ 8:53 AM
39topless	-- 10-10-2014 @ 1:04 PM
	Dear Mr. Stumbly, A little while ago I posted a problem I was having with "stumbling" at higher RPM's on this site and TomO was kind enough to provide some great advice. The thread was titled, "vacuum advance disabled". Your symptoms sound similar to mine. I reinstalled the vacuum "brake" (not advance) on the dissy and noticed a big improvement. You may want to take a look at that thread. Perhaps your brake needs adjusting and/or cleaning. Good Luck. Phil (Fellow Stumbler)
Grant	-- 10-13-2014 @ 9:06 AM
	Phil......... Thanks for your input. I did see that earlier thread. Jim at Bubba's Ignition in Indiana had rebuilt two complete 40B distributor assemblies for us in mid-August. I made no alterations to his settings. One of them is on our '36 now and is working very well. As the factory 1932 to 1941 Service Handbook says at page 161, in the event that work on an early V8 distributor is required it should "be performed only by a trained individual having the required equipment". As you have likely surmised, the level of my pre-war Ford service training is zero. TomO......... What a great set of idle setting instructions! The car is now running much better than ever before. Bubba's distributor and the rebuilt carb from Ken I in Connecticut are Grade A+. Very impressive. And the patient advice on Forum is terrific. Thank you again for all your help. Much appreciated. I look forward to meeting up with you and your Lincoln at another National Meet some time soon. This message was edited by Grant on 10-13-14 @ 1:36 PM
TomO	-- 10-13-2014 @ 2:47 PM
	Thanks for the update. I am glad that it is finally running right. I hope to take my 40 Mercury to the 2015 CNM in Brainard, MN, next year. It is quite a hall for an old guy and I need to check out the Minnesota Air-force. If it is a damp spriing, they will be flying all day. Tom
Grant	-- 10-31-2014 @ 3:32 AM
	I have now managed to put about 60 miles on the '36. Performance is vastly improved. The car has never run this well. Acceleration is snappy and at 70 mph there is still lots of room between the accelerator pedal and the floor. For any fellow member needing a rebuild done on an early Ford distributor or carburetor, I have no hesitation in recommending Jim "Bubba" Linder or Ken Isidor. High quality workmanship, fast turn-around time, and very reasonable prices.
ken ct.	-- 10-31-2014 @ 3:51 AM
	Bubba and I thank you for your good words. I would have sweared you said something about a cracked Columbia plate some where in your replies (which would cause a vacume leak) Maybe im wrong on that but glad its finally running right. ken isidor ken ct.
Grant	-- 05-29-2015 @ 2:00 PM
	Henry's Revenge has struck again.......... In my last post on this thread, on 31 October 2014, after almost three months of trying to get our '36 running properly, I thought that the various problems had all been resolved and said: "Performance is vastly improved. The car has never run this well." Since getting it out of storage three weeks and approximately 100 miles ago, pretty much the same misbehavior from last year is happening all over again: 1. gutless from a standing start as soon as it warms up 2. not bad performance in 2nd, but really poor acceleration in 3rd 3. a sensation of "chugging" sometimes 4. black soot coming out of the tail pipes, more on the right than on the left Today I discovered that the three nuts which hold down the carburetor were somewhat loose, so I tightened them up and took the car for another drive. It is now running much worse, could barely make it up the hill just before our farm laneway, and had one big backfire about 100 yards before I made it home. In the garage, before shutting off the ignition, I opened both sides of the hood and took the air cleaner off before checking the operation of the accelerator linkage and the throttle linkage. There is no apparent binding in those metal components. Removing the air cleaner made no difference to the choppy idle and near-stalling. Curiously, there is one new symptom which has never appeared before. In the see-through plastic fuel filter which is mounted between the mechanical fuel pump and the metal line on the firewall, there are now lots of bubbles. Turning on the electric fuel pump switch fills up the see-through filter, and eliminates most of the bubbles ............ but the engine still runs poorly and acts like it wants to stall. There is no evidence of dirt or grunge or small foreign matter particles in either of the see-through plastic filters (the other one is mounted in the line which connects the mechanical fuel pump to the freshly rebuilt carb). So ...... what are the flathead gods up to this time? Why did this '36 perform so well before going into winter storage, and then revert back to its old totally unreliable state? Is there maybe some sort of pinholing in the steel gas line under the car somewhere? Before being put away for six months, the car had a full tank of gas with a can of Seafoam poured in first.
TomO	-- 06-01-2015 @ 7:48 AM
	Grant, The one thing that comes to mind that could cause your problem is bugs in the distributor. I had a similar problem with a 45 truck a few years ago. There was a spider web keeping the points from making good contact. I would clean the points and check that the condenser is making good contact with ground and the points. The bubbles that you are seeing in the filter is because of a vacuum leak in the connections of the filter. The electric pump is pushing gas through the filter and the mechanical pump is trying to suck gas from the tank. If you are still having problems, a new topic would be in order. This one is very long and hard to read. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 6-1-15 @ 9:01 AM
Grant	-- 06-02-2015 @ 6:03 PM
	Thanks very much, Tom. I managed to find time today to get under the car and tighten all connections in the fuel line, as well as all vacuum connections for the Columbia rear end. The bubbles are gone from the see-through in-line filter. Acceleration is excellent again, and the engine is running beautifully. Looks like the distributor is probably okay. It's hard to understand why the ring clamps would have noticeably loosened off during seven months of winter storage, but that appears to be what happened.
VT/JeffH	-- 06-07-2015 @ 9:10 PM
	Hi Grant, and all the other posters in this thread. Grant, I followed you in Springfield on the tour, and remember the fun times fondly. I was driving a '36 Phaeton and had my brother Steve, with me. I see you're all fixed, but I had something to add. One thing I didn't see suggested for the 'cylinder out' test is to use a long handled screwdriver to short the spark plug to the head. Of course don't let your finger touch the metal shaft! That takes out a cylinder without removing the plug wire or plug. (I realize your tests did a little better than this one, as you could observe the condition of the spark.) Just trying to help. Another point of failure I didn't see come up is the rubber hose between the firewall and the fuel pump. Sometimes they get pinholes that don't leak fuel but suck air. Props to the fellas that have helped. TomO I think I met for the first time in Springfield (Isn't that Merc gorgeous?), and I've known Ken for several years. Good people!
TomO	-- 06-08-2015 @ 6:39 AM
	I had my 53 Lincoln at Springfield, I will ne taking my Merc to Brainerd. Tom
TomO	-- 06-08-2015 @ 6:46 AM
	Here's the Merc Tom
avrotom	-- 06-14-2015 @ 10:12 PM
	At the risk of unduly extending this thread, I did not see any mention of the exhaust system. I have had plugged/restricted exhaust create strange symptoms, notwithstanding the faults and repairs you had to make on the fuel and ignition systems. Just a thought.

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