| TonyM | -- 07-29-2014 @ 7:00 PM |
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I am having an apparent fuel delivery problem with my 1937 Ford 85hp with Stromberg 97 carb and mechanical fuel pump. Last time I drove the car in June I thought that I had run out of gas (gas gauge don't work). The car was evidently suffering from fuel starvation--it had sputtered and then quit. I put gas in the tank and the car started right up. I drove back to my garage and parked it. I took off the generator and voltage reg for rebuild. When the gen and vr came back I reinstalled them. The car would not start. I have spark but it appears that fuel is not getting to the carb. I tried starting it with starting fluid and gas poured in the carb. The car would fire up but stop when the fuel ran out. I cranked it over a bunch of times and pressed the pedal down a bunch of times but I could not smell gas during the start attempts. I disconnected the fuel line from the carb to fuel pump. No gas came out of the fuel pump when I cranked it. I drained the fuel from the fuel tank and I disconnected the fuel line from fire wall to tank and blew it out with air. Some gas came out. I reconnected all and no start. Again, appears no gas getting to carb from pump. I removed the fuel pump (new about 600 miles ago). When I removed the fuel line from the fire wall to pump, a small amount of gas came out. And a very very small amount of gas could be seen weeping from the hole at rear of the pump. I put the old fuel pump on (it worked when I replaced it with the new one) and reconnected everything and put in fresh new gasoline in the tank--still no start. I took off the fuel pump and a small amount of gas came out of the fuel line to fire wall and again small amount of fuel weeped out of the back hole. Seemed like fuel was getting to the pump but not beyond it. I put the new fuel pump back on. I decided to test the pump further. I connected a hose to the fuel pump and ran it to a small gas can. Cranked it but it appeared that no gas was being drawn into the make shift hose set up from the gas can. I thought that maybe the new fuel pump was bad, but the old fuel pump did not work either. The car ran good for about 600 miles. When I removed each fuel pump, gas dripped out of the firewall to pump fuel line and a very small amount of fuel appeared to weep out of the back hole of the pump. Could both pumps be bad? Not sure. Fuel appears to get up to the pump but not beyond it. Also noticed some gas staining at the base of the carb and then noticed that the nuts holding the carb were not very tight and the one on the left was real loose. Tightened all those down. After tightening all up and reinstalling the pump still no start. Any help appreciated. TonyM . . . 78-73B
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| nelsb01 | -- 07-29-2014 @ 9:07 PM |
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TonyM; It almost sounds like your fuel line from the tank is plugged. Or, you have a leak that is letting air into the transfer of gas. You are trying the right thing by trying to see if the fuel will travel from the tank to the pump. If it worked with the old pump, I would blow out the fuel line from firewall to tank and reinstall the old pump (that you knew worked) and try to see if you can get it to pump to the carb line that you disconnected. Make sure that you have tight connections to remove any chance of air being sucked into the delivery line. If you still dont get gas at the pump, then try a 3rd pump. If still no fuel -- it has to be the gas line from tank to pump. I am sure others will add to my suggestions.......
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| 40 Coupe | -- 07-30-2014 @ 4:15 AM |
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Tony: Since you bypassed the fuel line with the gas can and the fuel pumps still did not deliver fuel I think you have narrowed it down to bad fuel pumps or the installation of the pump to the adapter. If your using a pump, like the original 38 with the steel cover, often the cover gasket will leak air into the pump preventing the pump from drawing fuel from the fuel line. You may try, as a temporary measure, to wrap a couple turns of electrical tape around the junction of the top cover to the pump body and see if you can get fuel through the pump, if that fails replace the pump. Charlie Schwendler sells rebuilt and tested pumps with a special diaphragm to stand up to todays fuels. His ad is in the V8 Times.
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| TomO | -- 07-30-2014 @ 8:08 AM |
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Tony, If you are having a problem with priming the fuel pump, hook a vacuum gauge to the input of the fuel pump and crank the engine. The vacuum gauge reading should rise to 10 inches in 18 seconds. Stop cranking the engine and watch the needle on the gauge. It should take at least one minute to reach 0. In order of probability causes of failure in this area are top cover or sediment bowl gasket leaks, input valve not working or defective diaphragm. The valves in the new after market pumps made by Air-Tek will not hold vacuum above 5 inches. This may lead to priming failures. The valves in the pre 1941 fuel pumps are more likely to fail than the later type. The flex lines can leak at the crimp for the connection or from pinholes caused by not being alcohol resistant causing a vacuum leak. Tom
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| TonyM | -- 07-30-2014 @ 9:42 PM |
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Thanks all for the help. Still no start. Fuel is getting to the pump, but not beyond it. When I take the pump off, fuel drips out of it from the after port. When I turned the pump upside down, fuel leached out of the top cap. So fuel is getting there but not to the carb. . . . 78-73B
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| ken ct. | -- 07-31-2014 @ 3:27 AM |
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Either your inlet valve is not creating enough of a seal to suck fuel and or leaking fuel from the top cap when held upside down you have a bad gasket [cork or rubber]on the cover. There is also a small fiber gasket under the hold down bolt on the cover. Pump should NOT leak gas from there when held upside down. You will also be sucking air if you have a leak there.Sounds like you need a competent rebuilder on that pump. OMO. ken ct.
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| David J | -- 07-31-2014 @ 5:20 AM |
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Hey Tony , Try MANUALLY running the pump with all hooked up . Just take the 2 bolts out and push the pump up and down on the pushrod . This will tell you if your cam or fuel pump pushrod have worn down to the point of not functioning properly any more . You can also do it by hand but for sure check this as it sounds like you have classic symptoms of pushroditis !!!!!! Anyways it is easy to check and will get you one base closer .
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| David J | -- 07-31-2014 @ 9:24 AM |
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Tony , Just read your posts on the other site . Your last post said you get gas leaking out of the dome if you turn it over . If that is not sealed it is problem #1 with these pumps . The dome cover has to be sealed and the gasket probably went bad sitting OR maybe you have corn gas in it ? Anywayz the dome HAS TO BE SEALED for these to work properly . David J
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| TonyM | -- 08-05-2014 @ 7:23 AM |
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Installed new fuel pump and new fuel line. No start. When I disconnected the fuel line from the pump to firewall, fuel was seen to come out of the fuel line. Tested the pump-- Ran a fuel line from the fuel pump to a gas can. No start. When I disconnected the fuel line from the gas can and fuel pump, a few ounces of fuel poured out of the hose. Seems the fuel gets to the pump, but not beyond it. Stumped. Vacuum? Damaged fuel pump rod? Carb? Any help appreciated. . . . 78-73B This message was edited by TonyM on 8-5-14 @ 7:26 AM
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| TonyM | -- 08-05-2014 @ 8:23 AM |
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DavidJ. I just saw your posts. I hope it isn't the cam. I'll mess with the Push rod and see what happens. . . . 78-73B This message was edited by TonyM on 8-5-14 @ 8:24 AM
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| TomO | -- 08-05-2014 @ 8:56 AM |
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Tony, did you connect your vacuum gauge to the input of the fuel pump and crank the engine? You need to do this in order to find out if the pump is producing enough vacuum to suck up the gas. If your pump produces 10" of vacuum, check the output for 1-3# pressure. If you do not have access to a vacuum gauge, you can put your finger over the input port of the pump and have someone crank the engine for you. The pump should hold vacuum for at least 30 seconds after the cranking has stopped. The fuel pump push rod travel should be 1/4". If it isn't, then you have a rare case of the cam surface being worn. Low vacuum is due to the input valve failing or leaks in the top cover. The output pressure depend upon the diaphragm return spring pushing the gas out and the output valve operating correctly. Everything that you have posted indicates a vacuum leak or a bad input valve. Given the age of the fuel pump, I lean towards a vacuum leak at the top cover. You can get a new Offenhauser fuel pump from Speedway Motors in a couple of days. NAPA can get you an Airtex pump. NAPA can also get you a top cover gasket. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 8-5-14 @ 9:03 AM
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| TonyM | -- 08-05-2014 @ 9:09 AM |
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The pump I put on last night is brand new. I have no vacuum gauge. I am going to examine the pump rod. . . . 78-73B
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| supereal | -- 08-05-2014 @ 8:14 PM |
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I had an identical problem some time ago. I narrowed the cause to the gas line from the tank to the firewall. I removed the line, straightened it out, and when I couldn't blow compressed air thru it, I tried using a wire. When I finally managed to work the wire thru most of the way, a pile of dirt and rust came out. I couldn't remember ever replacing what appeared to be an undamaged fuel line. I did the whole fuel pump, flex line, and tank draining routine before I was left only with the line. I believe the alcohol in today's gas must have attacked the internal copper coating in the line, causing it to rust. That line is only large enough to furnish sufficient fuel. Any contamination will eventually starve the engine.
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| TomO | -- 08-06-2014 @ 7:44 AM |
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Tony, a vacuum gauge can be purchased at AutoZone, NAPA or Sears for less than $30 and it will provide you with a wealth of information about your engine. Here is a link to using a vacuum gauge to diagnose engine problems. http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm The two most important tools for diagnosing problems on an old car are the vacuum gauge and the multimeter. Consider buying and learning how to use both of them. Supereal is correct about plugged up fuel lines causing problems. The flex line going to the fuel pump is also a problem source. The insides collapse and block fuel delivery or the crimps fail causing a vacuum leak. Depending upon how you connected the hose that you put in a can of gas, your test could be inconclusive. The connections to the input of the fuel pump cannot leak vacuum. If they do, the pump will not perform properly.. Tom
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| TonyM | -- 08-06-2014 @ 4:10 PM |
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Okay, got it going. Going good. Thanks to all who offered advice and help. And thanks Joe Serritella, the generator is working great. Waiting for Jason in Michigan to finish my horns. . . . 78-73B This message was edited by TonyM on 8-6-14 @ 4:11 PM
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| len47merc | -- 08-06-2014 @ 6:08 PM |
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Great to hear you got it 'going good'. To close the loop - what did you ultimately find was the problem, and what was the resolve? Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 8-6-14 @ 6:09 PM
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| TonyM | -- 08-10-2014 @ 12:22 PM |
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It was both a vacuum problem and/or insufficient prime. Not completely solved. Read on: I started back again from square one. Drained the tank. Disassembled the fuel system going back to the tank. Blew the line out with air. Put it back together. Got a new firewall to pump fuel line. New fuel pump. During this episode I had discovered that the intake manifold bolts were loose. Tightened them down. Noticed fuel stains on the manifold at the base of the carb. The nuts holding the carb down were all loose, the one on the left was very loose. Tightened those down. Made sure all connections were good and all hardware tightened down. Needed two more hands so my friend came by to help. We primed the carb good and filled the bowl. After some cranking it got going. Running strong. Went for a 1.5 mile ride. Seemed okay. Amazing how all the hardware worked loose. Thought all was good. The fuel pump in the photo apparently failed after about 500 miles. I removed the pump and while handling the pump fuel leaked out of the top when I turned it upside down, so I bought a new one. Stand by for Part Two and Part Three. . . . 78-73B This message was edited by TonyM on 8-11-14 @ 5:36 PM
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| TonyM | -- 08-10-2014 @ 6:59 PM |
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I decided to take the car for a ride Sunday A.M. Started right up. Sounded good. Okay. I drive away from the garage and about a mile later I smell gasoline. I decided to head back immediately. I backed the car down the drive and shut it off. Open the hood and look. I could smell gas and I could see that there appears to be gas leaking from the body of the Type 97 carb. ??? So I tightened up the screws holding it together. After a hard start I have the car running again. I can smell gasoline. No gas coming from the body of the carb. Okay. Then I look at the brand new fuel pump. To my utter amazement it is puking out gas like crazy from the area where the two lower body pieces come together. I just couldn't believe it. I could hear it huffing against itself, gasping and sucking air. I quickly tighten the screws holding it together. About half are tight, I turn the rest of them. Does not slow down the fuel leaking from the fuel pump. Dang. I ask myself what the heck is going on with these fuel pumps? I backed the car into the garage and then continued to watch. Still leaking, a lot. I shut the car down in fear that it would catch on fire. When me and my friend were messing with these fuel pumps, my friend says that it is not likely that two brand new fuel pumps could be bad. Well, that appears to be the case here. The first "new" one was installed about 500 miles ago. When I removed it during my non start problem, fuel leakage was appearing from the body/dome. The brand new one, purchased just seven days ago, was leaking a lot of fuel from the body. I just couldn't believe it. I was pretty disappointed, but as I lowered the garage door and walked away I just had to laugh. What junk these two pumps are. I followed TomO's instructions and read all the advice given to me; the pump(s) were installed carefully and the fuel system reassembled with attention to detail. I was defeated by this cheap garbage. I am still deciding if I should ask for a refund for this latest pump, which lasted all of 3.1 miles before it failed. The pump in the photo was purchased seven days ago. I will probably install the old pump that came with the car (I would bet that this old pump is from the 1950s). When I changed over to a correct 1937 Aluminum manifold and correct Type 97 carb, I decided to change the fuel pump just to be on the safe side. That didn't work out so well as the two "new" pumps demonstrate. This winter I will have this old pump rebuilt before the modern gas does it in. . . . 78-73B This message was edited by TonyM on 8-10-14 @ 7:04 PM
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| TonyM | -- 08-10-2014 @ 7:07 PM |
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This fuel hose (firewall to pump) was installed new about 500 miles ago. Might have been part of the original problem. I bought a brand new one last week to replace it. . . . 78-73B
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| TonyM | -- 08-10-2014 @ 7:12 PM |
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This pump came with the car. I replaced it with a new pump when I installed the correct 1937 aluminum intake manifold and Type 97 carb (when I bought the car it had a cast iron intake and a type 94 carb). This fuel pump worked when I removed it. I will reinstall it for the time being. I will have it rebuilt in the coming months. . . . 78-73B
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| TomO | -- 08-11-2014 @ 5:51 AM |
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Tony, that hose was definitely part of the problem. The pump that was on the car is the aftermarket type sold after 1941. I have had good luck with the Offenhauser pumps from Speedway motors. NAPA sells the Airtex pumps, and you can return the defective parts locally. Bob Drake is supposed to sell a quality fuel pump also, but I don't understand why you would have to disassemble it and rotate the top half in order for it to fit. Ken Isadore does quality rebuilds on the original pumps and may have a core for your car, if you intend to have it point judged, otherwise I prefer the Offenhauser pump. Tom
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| TonyM | -- 08-11-2014 @ 6:24 AM |
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TomO: "... but I don't understand why you would have to disassemble it and rotate the top half in order for it to fit." Tom, that is not what happened. I am only saying that when I removed the pump and was handling the pump, it began to leak fuel when I turned it upside down. Never had to rotate the pump to install it. I was merely handling the pump after removal. . . . 78-73B
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| TomO | -- 08-11-2014 @ 7:21 AM |
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Tony, I did not make myself clear. I was talking about the comments in the current issue of the V-8 Times that recommended Bob Drake's fuel pumps. I understood what you did. It sounds like the top gasket failed. NAPA online has them. As another hint, some rebuilders and manufacturers leave the screws holding the 2 halves together loose so the diaphragm will not stretch. The proper way to tighten them is: with the screws tightened to just touch the lock washers, operate the pump several times to seat the diaphragm and let the arm return to the neutral position. Then tighten the screws in an alternating pattern. Tom
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| TonyM | -- 08-11-2014 @ 7:56 AM |
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Sorry for the mix up. It is August 11 and unfortunately I still have not received my July/August issue of the V-8 Times. Beginning to worry about where it is. Thanks for all the help Tom. . . . 78-73B This message was edited by TonyM on 8-11-14 @ 8:04 AM
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| TonyM | -- 08-14-2014 @ 6:44 PM |
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New problem: Fuel weeping from the body of the carb. . . . 78-73B
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| TonyM | -- 08-14-2014 @ 6:47 PM |
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New problem: Fuel weeping from the body of the carburetor. I changed out the fuel pump and that seems to be solved. The car is running. . . . 78-73B
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| TonyM | -- 08-14-2014 @ 6:51 PM |
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New problem: Fuel is weeping from the body of the carburetor. The car is running. This is turning into "whack a mole"--solve one problem and another one pops up. As soon as I find new storage I will send this carb and fuel pump to KenCT for a rebuild. I am still hoping to get this car to the meet next week. . . . 78-73B
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| TonyM | -- 08-14-2014 @ 7:08 PM |
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New problem: Fuel is weeping from the body of the carburetor. The car is running. This is turning into "whack a mole"--solve one problem and another one pops up. As soon as I find new storage I will send this carb and fuel pump to KenCT for a rebuild. I am still hoping to get this car to the meet next week. . . . 78-73B
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| supereal | -- 08-14-2014 @ 7:58 PM |
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Be sure you have a vented cap on your gas tank. We have seen radiator caps on fuel tanks which, being non vented, cause stalling until the vacuum is relieved thru the system.
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| TonyM | -- 08-14-2014 @ 9:03 PM |
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No Stalling Problem. Car runs. Engine sounds great. No loss of power whatsoever. Gas cap is regular Ford equipment. . . . 78-73B
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| TomO | -- 08-15-2014 @ 6:18 AM |
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It looks like your float is set too high, the needle valve is stuck or the least likely, your fuel pump is putting out too much pressure for the Stromberg. Check the float needle valve for debris, there could be some from the deteriorating flex hose that you replaced. I hope that you did not use Teflon tape on the fittings, as it will shred and the particles will keep the needle valve from closing. As I said in my previous post, your fuel pumps are aftermarket items and incorrect for a 1937 Ford. I would not waste money on rebuilding one of these. If you want your car to be Concourse correct or are going for a Rouge Class award, try and find a correct pump at the meet and have that rebuilt, if you just want a driver, use one of the available replacements. Tom
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| TonyM | -- 08-15-2014 @ 7:45 AM |
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The pump in the photo is the one I have on there now. It is old. Came with the car when I bought it. The car had not run since the early 1960s. I installed the correct 1937 aluminum intake, that is when I replaced the pump initially. So the pump in the photo is incorrect? If it is then I'll find the correct pump and have it rebuilt. No Teflon tape was used. Thanks Tom . . . 78-73B This message was edited by TonyM on 8-15-14 @ 7:47 AM
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| TonyM | -- 08-15-2014 @ 8:49 AM |
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Thanks KenCT. Will be getting the correct fuel pump. . . . 78-73B This message was edited by TonyM on 8-15-14 @ 6:14 PM
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