| 40guy | -- 05-31-2014 @ 12:51 PM |
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Someone told me that there was a discussion on here dealing with flatheads overheating and they were sharing a simple idea of something you could bypass and you could buy what you needed at radio shack? Does anyone know what I am referring to and if so can you direct me to where I need to be?
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| Old Henry | -- 05-31-2014 @ 2:28 PM |
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The only discussion I can think of about bypassing something with something bought from Radio Shack is bypassing the coil resistor with a circuit using a diode from Radio Shack but that was about better starting in the cold weather, not overheating.
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| 40guy | -- 05-31-2014 @ 2:35 PM |
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What I am looking for is a way to bypass and be able to crank the car when it gets hot like flatheads do. When it gets overheated it won't crank
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| alanwoodieman | -- 05-31-2014 @ 3:03 PM |
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just run a wire from one post of the resister to the other post-go thru an off/on switch and then use the switch to supply full voltage to the coil
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| 40guy | -- 05-31-2014 @ 3:20 PM |
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Do you have a schematic to show me how? I thought it was something to do with a diode. What exactly is this suppose to do?
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| 40guy | -- 05-31-2014 @ 3:32 PM |
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http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fileattachments/Quick%20Start4.jpg Please take a look at this. This is what I have been told about, but I'm not sure how it will help when the car overheats and won't start. Help?
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| joe b | -- 05-31-2014 @ 4:38 PM |
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I believe this was posted by Superreal. I use it and it works
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| 40guy | -- 05-31-2014 @ 4:55 PM |
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What size diode do you use?
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| cliftford | -- 05-31-2014 @ 5:23 PM |
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I use the top hat type diode, which looks just like a top hat, it is aluminum and is a lttle smaller than a dime. I believe it was rated for 7 0r 8 volts and 20 plus amps. I got it from a Model A parts house. It'a used on old ford generators to replace the cutout. The switch that bypasses the resister will work just as well. I would use a push button switch. To answer your original qurstion: this sends full battery voltage to the coil momentarily while the engine is cranking. This message was edited by cliftford on 5-31-14 @ 5:26 PM
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| cliftford | -- 05-31-2014 @ 8:22 PM |
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I re-read your post more carefully. Your big problem is the overheating. I would find and correct the cause of that before doing anything else. As stated, the diode or resistor bypass will do nothing to correct this.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 06-01-2014 @ 3:57 AM |
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I would suggest you have your battery, battery cables, ground cables and their terminations as well as the grounding on the starter motor checked. The above is a band aid that puts excessive voltage to the coil so it is sure to spark, this will not make the car starter motor turn the engine over more rapidly.
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| 40guy | -- 06-01-2014 @ 2:02 PM |
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Is there anything I can do to help this flathead not to overheat? I know they have always been known for overheating and not starting back when it's hot out. Is there anything I can do?
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| supereal | -- 06-01-2014 @ 2:42 PM |
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You say it won't "crank". Do you mean it won't turn over with the starter? That is a different problem than increasing the voltage to the coil, which does help if the battery output is drawn down by the starter. Failure to crank is usually due to a weak or failing battery, too small cables, or poor connections. The starter, particularly if hot, tends to lose power due to increased internal resistance. Many swich to the Optima batter, which has over 800 amps of cold cranking power, usually enough to overcome most hot start problems. I am attaching my original booster info.
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| 40guy | -- 06-01-2014 @ 4:21 PM |
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But is there anything I can do to help with the engine overheating and then not wanting to start back?
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| Old Henry | -- 06-01-2014 @ 8:46 PM |
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There are a number of things that can cause overheating, even in a flathead that's prone to such: 1. Plugged radiator. If in doubt take it out and get it cleaned out. 2. Restrictions in water flow that could be caused by too small or malfunctioning thermostat. On the 59A engine my studies and testing have shown that the Stant thermostat has the highest flow. (Don't run without a thermostat. That is not necessary nor healthy for your engine.) Read more here: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113366 The style of water pump may also make a difference. The new ones generally sold by venders have better centrifugal impellers to move more water. Although many swear by Skip's pumps, my studies and research indicate that they only move more water without a thermostat which any pump will. So, I don't recommend using those. Read more here: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106054 3. Poor air flow through the radiator. Make sure the fins are not plugged with excessive bugs etc. Some put bigger fans with more blades, fan shrouds, electric fans (which will only keep up if powered by an alternator). I don't use any of those and don't have an overheating problem. 4. Engine water passages plugged or coated with rust. That can usually be detected by removing the radiator hose from the neck on the head and examine inside. If a lot of rust buildup, treat with Evaporust (not vinegar). Here's why: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123032 Some believe that some blocks may still have casting sand lodged in the water passages that reduce some of the heat exchange needed. If that is so, the only solution to that that I have heard is to dismantle the block and try to dig that stuff out with a stiff wire. As far as difficulty starting when hot, assuming the starter is cranking the engine over OK, it is probably vapor lock. That is when the heat under the hood of the engine compartment is so high that it turns the fuel in the fuel pump into vapor which the fuel pump can't pump so the engine will either start, run for a minute, then die or won't start at all. Although there was probably some vapor lock back when these cars were new, it's much worse now with the alcohol in the fuel. The most reliable solution used by most (including me) is to install a backup electric fuel pump back by the gas tank to turn on when vapor locked. One has had some success with a fuel recirculating line: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136480 This message was edited by Old Henry on 6-1-14 @ 9:06 PM
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| TomO | -- 06-02-2014 @ 5:36 AM |
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40guy, To save yourself a lot of trouble and money, please explain what you mean by overheating. Everyone has a slightly different perception of overheating. The fix may be as simple as just tightening some connections to as costly as removing the radiator and having it re-cored. If the engine has truly overheated, you should wait until it cools down before trying to start it. Does the coolant temperature get to 212 degrees and the water spurts out of the radiator, or are you depending on the dash gauge? There are several conditions that can cause incorrect dash gauge readings. Does the engine overheat when driving at highway speeds or city driving speeds, or only in heavy traffic or when idling? If your coolant is not boiling, and the engine is hard starting when warm, there are several things that can cause this, but you need to explain it better Does the starter turn the engine over very slowly compared to a cold engine? Does the starter turn the engine over just as fast as a cold engine, but it won't start? Will the engine start if you let it sit for 30 min? Have you fully charged the Optima battery? You have a battery tender, connect it and let the car sit until the full charge indicator is on. Tom
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| 40guy | -- 06-02-2014 @ 7:32 AM |
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What I mean by overheating is that the gauge reads hot and the engine is very hot but never to the boiling point or smoking point. When I am driving the car on a hot day meaning about 85 to 90 degrees on back streets not in traffic just riding around the gauge will read hot and if I stop the engine say to get gas the engine won't turn over until the engine cools down and when it does fire back it will spudder going up the road with loss of engine power. I know it's not uncommon for old flatheads to run hot on hot days but is it normal for this to happen?
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| 39topless | -- 06-02-2014 @ 3:00 PM |
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Sounds like a coil problem. Next time, pour some water on it (without getting water inside the dizzy) and see if that helps. But you really need to address your overheating problem. Flatheads need the air flowing as well as water circulation to stay cool. (Of course flatheads are cool even if they are overheating.) Good luck. Phil
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| Old Henry | -- 06-02-2014 @ 4:30 PM |
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As I said before, your symptoms are classic vapor lock symptoms. Pour the water on the fuel pump and if it then starts right up it's confirmed vapor lock. As long as you're not boiling over you can keep driving. But,if you really want to know the temperature of your engine install a mechanical temperature gauge and, if you don't want it showing in your car, hide it in the glove box. See how I did mine cheap and easy here: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88541
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| 40guy | -- 06-02-2014 @ 4:38 PM |
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That's exactly what I was needing to know. I was afraid I was doing something wrong or I was gonna mess something up. I just needed to know it was a classic case and not a problem
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| TomO | -- 06-03-2014 @ 7:13 AM |
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It sound like your temperature gauge is working properly. If the starter cranks the engine at the same speed as it does when cold, then check your spark. It is best to do this when the engine is idling. You can use a fuse puller to remove a plug wire and hod it next to a head nut. The spark should be at least 1/2". If it is not, have the coil rebuilt by Skip Haney. http://www.fordcollector.com/water_pumps.htm If the starter turns the engine over slow, check to make sure that you have 6 volt cables from the battery to the solenoid and ground. The cable to the starter should also be a 6 volt cable. If the cables are correct, you can try cleaning the mounting surface of the starter, but you will probably need to have the starter rebuilt with new bushings and brushes. To control the temperature better, you can try the vinegar treatment. Drain and fill the cooling system with vinegar and let it set for a couple of days. Then drain the system without running the engine, remove the hoses and run water through the head outlets to drain at the water pump outlets. Do this on both sides. Flush the radiator with clean water also. Whe the flow is clear, reconnect the hoses and refill the cooling system. If you have thermostats, you can remove them to see if that helps. Tom
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| trjford8 | -- 06-03-2014 @ 8:33 AM |
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Sounds to me like he may also need a set of newer style water pumps. Those from Fryer, Haney or Drake may help with the heating a lower speeds.
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| supereal | -- 06-03-2014 @ 10:54 AM |
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Coils don't "vapor lock". Original coils do falter when hot. Vapor lock refers to when the gas in the line has bubbles from being overheated, resulting in loss of fuel supply as the pump cannot move vapor. The post says the engine "will not turn over" until it cools. I take that as it will not crank, not that it doesn't fire up. Big difference. The new turbine style water pumps are a big improvement. The more coolant you can move thru the system, the better the cooling. In hot weather, the only function of the thermostats is to provide a bit of pressure to force coolant into hot spots in the engine. A presure cap will do the same thing. Steam will not cool. Most cooling problems verified, by a thermometer put into the radiator neck, are caused by an old radiator. Many don't want to replace it due to the high cost, but do eventually, to provide reliable operation. A car that isn't dependable is worse than no car at all! This message was edited by supereal on 6-3-14 @ 11:02 AM
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| 40guy | -- 06-03-2014 @ 5:11 PM |
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When the engine gets so hot to the 3/4 mark the engine will die and you can't keep it running for nothing. What's going on?
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| Old Henry | -- 06-03-2014 @ 10:54 PM |
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Did you try pouring a quart of water on the fuel pump when it quit? My money is on vapor lock as your problem that is easily verified by quickly cooling the fuel pump when it quits and seeing if it fixes the problem.
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| 40guy | -- 06-04-2014 @ 4:01 AM |
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I'm not exactly sure where the fuel pump is and if this is my problem how could I fix it permanently?
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| Old Henry | -- 06-04-2014 @ 7:22 AM |
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The fuel pump is the mechanism that the fuel line from the carburetor is attached to. The permanent solution that most use for vapor lock is an electric fuel pump installed in the fuel line back by the gas tank that can be turned on to “prime” the stock mechanical pump when it’s vapor locked.
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| 40guy | -- 06-04-2014 @ 7:30 AM |
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What if I got a piece of heater hose and wrapped it with cool tape and cut it the length of the hose and put it on the fuel line to dissipate the heat off of the fuel line?
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| Old Henry | -- 06-04-2014 @ 8:22 AM |
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If you don't care about the authentic appearance of your engine compartment give it a try. In the old days guys used to clip a mess of clothes pins on the fuel line leading up to the fuel pump that seemed to help. The main problem is that the modern gas with alcohol in it has a lower boiling temperature making the flatheads much more prone to vapor lock than they used to be, even with those old home remedies. But, first test with the water to accurately diagnose vapor lock as your problem. It's certainly possible that your problem is something else.
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| 39topless | -- 06-04-2014 @ 9:27 AM |
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Of course coils don't vapor lock but they can sure stop working if they get hot.
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| 40guy | -- 06-04-2014 @ 10:00 AM |
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I will try to diagnose it next time it happens. If that is the case I will either do the clothes pins or the hose but it I do the hose I would cut it length wise so I could remove it for car shows
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| cliftford | -- 06-04-2014 @ 5:57 PM |
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I always thought the clothes pin thing was as old wives tale, if you're talking about plain old wooden ones. I can't see how they would dissipate much heat. The bset idea is a back up electric fuel pump, like ol'. Henry suggested. I use one and it works great. This message was edited by cliftford on 6-5-14 @ 7:05 AM
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| cliftford | -- 06-04-2014 @ 5:57 PM |
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I always thought the clothes pin thing was an old wives tale, if you're talking about plain old wooden ones. I can't see how they would dissipate much heat. The bset idea is a back up electric fuel pump, like ol'. Henry suggested. I use one on my '48 and it works great. This message was edited by cliftford on 6-4-14 @ 5:59 PM
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| TomO | -- 06-05-2014 @ 7:40 AM |
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Check your spark, it sound like the coil is breaking down under heat. If you truly have vapor lock when the temp gauge is at 3/4, you probably have a weak fuel pump. The nominal 3# pressure is enough to prevent vapor lock, except at very high under hood temperatures or very high altitudes. Tom
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| 40guy | -- 06-09-2014 @ 6:44 PM |
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If the coil is possibly getting too hot and causing the engine to stop running, what is something I could try to prevent it from getting so hot?
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| TomO | -- 06-10-2014 @ 6:52 AM |
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If the coil is breaking down, due to heat, it must be rebuilt or replaced. In most cases where the coil fails when hot, you can determine the condition of the coil by checking the spark at idle before the coil gets hot. Use a fuse puller or a spark tester (NAPA SER 606) to hold a plug wire near a head nut. The spark should be at least 1/2" long or at the 20 mark on the tester. If the spark is good, check it again when the engine is at the 3/4 mark on the temp gauge. Tom
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| 40guy | -- 06-10-2014 @ 9:45 AM |
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There is nothing I can try to keep the coil from getting so hot like putting foil over the coil or something like this? Is there any old tricks? It runs and cranks fine until it gets hot. As soon as the engine gets warm it will cut off. every time. This message was edited by 40guy on 6-10-14 @ 10:10 AM
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| 40guy | -- 06-10-2014 @ 10:29 AM |
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Could it possibally be the voltage regulator causing the coil to get too hot and the engine shut off?
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| cliftford | -- 06-10-2014 @ 5:45 PM |
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No, if your voltage reg were at fault, other problems wolld show up, like the gen.overheating and the battery boiling dry.
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| 40guy | -- 06-10-2014 @ 6:19 PM |
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So is there anything I can do to try to keep the coil from overheating and stopping?
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| cliftford | -- 06-10-2014 @ 6:49 PM |
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Try another known good coil and see if it makes a difference. any 6v non resistor coil will do.
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| Old Henry | -- 06-10-2014 @ 10:36 PM |
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Have you determined that it is the coil and not vapor lock? If so, how? What TomO said is one way to test the coil when hot. Anytime I've got repeated engine failure while driving I first determine whether it's fuel or spark by putting my timing light on the high tension coil wire (the one that the high voltage comes out of to the distributor rotor) with the trigger taped down so that it's always on. That way it shows every spark coming out of the coil. Then I prop the timing light up on the cowl where I can see it while driving and drive it. If it's loss of spark killing the engine it will show up on the timing light. If the spark isn't quitting you're back to vapor lock.
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| 40guy | -- 06-11-2014 @ 7:02 AM |
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So to check the spark I need to pull the plug wire from one cylinder and ground it to the engine and compare the spark from start up to when the engine is warm?
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| TomO | -- 06-11-2014 @ 7:13 AM |
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You need to hold the plug wire near a head nut and should have a spark at least 1/2" when idling. A good coil will give you a nice blue spark and emit a sharp cracking noise. A weak coil will give you a orange spark and a kind of sizzle noise. Use a fuse puller or other plastic instrument to test the spark. A good coil will put out 20,000 volts and that will take all of the curl out of your hair. A weak coil can vary from 6.000 volts to 15,000 volts, winch is still a great shock to your system. Cooling the coil is not effective, because the turns inside the coil are shorting to each other. The insulation has broken down and when the coil gets warm, more turns begin to short out. Tom
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| 40guy | -- 06-11-2014 @ 6:11 PM |
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Can I use pliers with rubber grips on them? I don't have anything plastic like that
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| TomO | -- 06-12-2014 @ 6:30 AM |
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Yes, if there are no cracks in the insulated handles. Grab the insulated part of the wire as an additional safety precaution. You can also go to NAPA and purchase P/N SER 606 for about $13. Fuse puller pliers are sold at most hardware stores. Tom
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| 40guy | -- 06-12-2014 @ 7:32 AM |
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To check the spark I need to pull one plug wire and fire the engine and compare the spark from when the engine starts to when the engine gets hot?
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 06-12-2014 @ 10:21 AM |
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Matco Tools makes a spark tester PN, KD2756 that I keep in my tool box and would recommend to anyone that drives their car. It has a neat clip that attaches to any place on the engine and connects to a spark plug wire. It will let you know immediately if you have spark or not. Sounds to me you are looking for what many Hot Rod guys install in their cars called a "hot start " relay. It bypasses everything and sends 12V right to the starter. I don't know if it is available for 6V. Several guys have given you suggestions of what sounds like this item. You need to define what your problem really is. Overheating, coil breakdown, bad grounds, vapor lock, you cover a lot of areas that may or may not be related to each other.
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| 40guy | -- 06-12-2014 @ 10:26 AM |
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I am going to test the spark this evening and see what happens
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| supereal | -- 06-12-2014 @ 12:07 PM |
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If the starter solenoid is making the proper contact, there is no need to bypass it. The "hot start" circuit bypasses the ignition resistor to compensate for the low voltage produced by the starter demand, often dropping the coil input voltage below the 3 volts necessary for adequate spark.
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| 39topless | -- 06-12-2014 @ 12:40 PM |
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Your coil is getting hot internally not from external conditions. You are going to have to have your coil rebuilt or exchange for a new/rebuilt one. Not too expensive but the best money (like the battery) you can spend. Good Luck
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| 40guy | -- 06-12-2014 @ 1:02 PM |
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I just checked the spark and it is blue but it don't fire everytime it kind does it intermittent.
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| TomO | -- 06-13-2014 @ 7:03 AM |
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Check the connections at the ignition switch, coil resister and the coil. They should all be snug. Also check the screw that holds the condenser to the coil and the distributor bolt that grounds the condenser. Tom
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| 40guy | -- 06-13-2014 @ 1:53 PM |
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I have another coil I am going to try and see if it fixes the problem.
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| 39topless | -- 06-13-2014 @ 7:19 PM |
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Great Idea, That will give you a base line to work back from. Let's just assume that this new coil is ok.
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