| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 01-26-2010 @ 8:41 AM |
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HI I just took a good look at my original 37 FORD CABRIOLET, 78-760-A I Owned this since 1975,and found NO NUMBER plate , anywhere near the fore wall,, like the person with the 710 ROADSTER, I would assume this plate that was pictured was home made,and NOT AUTHENIC as I understand it, it should read 78-710 Then the rest of the vin number should have folowed, same as on the frame, The doors on that 710 look authenic , because has no top of door mouldings like my 37 CABRIOLET I know for a fact that 1936 CONVERTIBLE SEDANS, had embossed number on the right side of firewall, because was made by a outside source, maybe that 710 ROADSTER ID plate was made for export? thanks just shedding a little light on this subject, thanks Just my 2 cents worth,37 RAGTOPMAN
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| 42wagon | -- 01-26-2010 @ 9:14 AM |
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Ragtopman I'll be the first to admit that I am not an expert on the subject but I'll throw in my thoughts for what it is worth. As we all know the serial number for the vehicle was assigned when the engine was assembled at the Rouge engine plant. When the engine was installed in a frame at an assembly plant that number was then transferred to the left frame rail in three places. The tag on the body apparently was placed there by the body builder - if it was not built by Ford - at the time the body was built. It would be stamped with the appropriate body number, however, the body builder would have no knowledge of the serial number as the body was no where near the frame. Now we know that someone would stamp the frame when the engine was installed. That would be somewhere up the line before the body drop area. So if your thought is correct someone would have to come back after the body was installed and stamp the serial number on the body tag. I don't think this is likely since Ford was not stamping the number on bodies without body tags. Ford was pretty casual about car identification so why pay someone to do that only to cars with body tags when the serial number was on the frame? As an aside regarding the 36 Convertible Sedan number, station wagons built in the Ford Iron Mountain body plant have a sequential body number for the year stamped in the firewall. Ford didn't see fit to add a serial number to that number. Ted
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| 37 Coupe | -- 01-26-2010 @ 9:47 AM |
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The 1937 Ford cabriolet body was made by the Murray Co. and supplied to Ford who provided chassis,hood fenders etc. The tag on a 37 Ford would be the body tag that Murray used to identify for work and invoice,it would have had nothing to do with an engine chassis number that it would not have known yet what one Ford was putting it on. The 39 convertible I once owned was also supplied by Murray and it simply had body 91A-76 and number was less than 500,out of the 10,000 or so made. Lots of these have gone missing,they also were installed on bare or primed metal as I recall and painted with final body color.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 01-26-2010 @ 4:21 PM |
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I think you misunderstood me, I was refering to the number on the chassis, and if they have a tag were would it be located, that one in the picture looked to me like homemade, I just sold a 39 MERCURY BODY TAG, and it was stored outside under the hood and looked alot better then the one in the picture, I owned my 37 for 35 years,it was the original color before I bought it and it had no body tag,and I stripped in down to bare metal,and cannot remember seeing one, but maybe it is hidden ? the 710 is highly modified and what would keep somebody from fabricating a tag,? My 2 cents worth 37 RAGTOPMAN
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-26-2010 @ 6:31 PM |
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37RAGTOPMAN, Howdy! I would be the guy with the highly modified 710. I assure you the tag is authentic and not homemade. What the other guys are telling you is consistent with what I have found to be true. Not all open bodied Ford vehicles had tags on them, in fact most of them dont because they were done in house. Tags were only put on those models that were subcontracted to other firms that built bodies for Ford. Export models also may have had tags as a requirement for Customs. I was told by Gary Mallast (an expert on 38 Fords reffered to me by the EFV8) that my tag is authentic. He affirms the tag was painted in a black coloring and it originally said series 78 - 7I0 xxx . The series 78 was painted and the only thing that changed was the model number and the sequence number for the body company. The paint burns off in time and leaves only the embossed alfa-numeric code in the metal. Apparently a letter "I" substituted the #1 because at some point this was done by Ford to make bootlegging parts more difficult as Gary tells it. You can call Gary and ask him 586-468-8011. He is a really nice guy and he will not make you feel inferior because you need to ask a question! Dan
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| wmsteed | -- 01-27-2010 @ 9:47 AM |
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I am going to have to agree with 37 coupe on his description of the body tags on the conv's. The body tags I have seen on the conv's made by Briggs and/or Murray were installed on the firewall prior to painting, therefore, they were painted over with no prime coat under the tag. The prime coat and finish color would indicate that the bodies were supplied to Ford by the body builder either in the "white" or with a prime coat for protection during transit. The Briggs tags I have seen are always embossed in lieu of stamping.. As to why the conv tags differ from the tags usually found on the out sourced coupes, sedans, etc. bodies, that is a question that in all likelihood will never be answered. It has been well documented that Briggs and Murray had a running battle going with Ford over Ford's demands that they could only make a 10% profit off of goods supplied to Ford, that is why by the mid 1930's, Briggs was only supplying conv. cpe bodies to Ford. I have read in several publications that by the mid/late 1930's, Briggs supplied all of Fords conv. cpe bodies, where-as Murray supplied conv. sdn and other body styles to Ford. It is very unlikely that any amount of debate will ever convince a person that has a car/body that should have a proper body tag, but does not, that their car is lesser of a car than the car with a proper tag. I wonder, does this anomaly come up during National Judging? Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-27-2010 @ 12:34 PM |
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Bill, your answer is no. However, I'll qualify that with the statement that yes, a homemade body tag would be very closely scrutinized for correctness. It's like accessories, in that the presence of an accessory, no matter how rare or correct it may be, will not give you points, but can very well cause a deduction in points. Alan
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 01-27-2010 @ 12:34 PM |
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looks like to me some had the tags and some did not, after myself restoring my 37 and had it down to bear metal and never came across a tag of any kind and no rivit holes.and had the original paint on it when I bought it, but no matter ,,I have enjoyed the car since 1975, picture enclosed, my 2 cents worth, 37 RAGTOPMAN
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-27-2010 @ 2:49 PM |
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37RAGTOPMAN, Check out this link and scroll through the pics and you will see an authentic tag.....let me know how much you think it looks like the one on my 1937 Roadster 710? See the big difference? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1936-Ford-Conv-California-Hot-Rod-World-Wide-Shipping_W0QQitemZ320480076395QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item4a9e19e26b
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 01-27-2010 @ 6:34 PM |
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hi arguelles67 I saw the TAG and it is for either a 1936 convertible sedan, or a 1936 convertible touring sedan,with the 740 prefix, so that 1936 CABRIOLET the one on the web site that you posted for viewing for us,, is MADE OUT OF PARTS for sure.... this info come form this web site,UNDER CAR CODES, check it out, that car should have a 760 prefix,to BE CORRECT, and it is NOT I copied the car codes , it it down below, Car Codes Year Manufacturer Model Car Code 1936 Ford 3-windowcoupe 68-72A 1936 Ford cabriolet 68-76A 1936 Ford club cabriolet 68-76B 1936 Ford convertible sedan 68-74B 1936 Ford convertible touring sedan 68-74C 1936 Ford deluxe 5-windowcoupe 68-77B 1936 Ford deluxe fordor sedan 68-73B 1936 Ford deluxe fordor touring sedan 68-73D 1936 Ford deluxe panel delivery 68-80D 1936 Ford deluxe pickup 68-80A 1936 Ford deluxe sedan delivery 68-78B 1936 Ford deluxe tudor sedan 68-70B 1936 Ford deluxe tudor touring sedan 68-70D 1936 Ford phaeton 68-75A 1936 Ford roadster 68-71A
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-27-2010 @ 7:56 PM |
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37RAGTOPMAN, Yeah I figured that car wasnt right.... Just wanted to show you the tag because that is real. I have noticed the same tag on Ford 36 and 37's. Thanks for the list!
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 01-29-2010 @ 6:14 AM |
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its just a steet rod, the guy that buys it will never know, for me to pay that much I would have to see it with no paint, paint can hid many things, that can surface in a few years, if funny how many people want a street rod and after its done decide to sell it, I guess its just s business,for some just my 2 cents worth, 37RAGTOPMAN
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| wmsteed | -- 01-29-2010 @ 9:37 AM |
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I have found that a vast majority of the street rodders and customizers are basicly on an ego trip. They build a car to SHOW... knowing full well that in about two years they will tire of the car because it is not receiving the awards that it did when it first hit the show circuit. Maybe I place to much credence on the value of proper VIN's and ID plates, however, missing and/or improperly located ID plates can be a hint that all is not as it should be. Restorers generally fall into a different category. Their finished product is generally equal to, or better than new. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-29-2010 @ 4:02 PM |
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37RAGTOPMAN, Some Rodders will keep the classic lines of the car but will update the interior with contemporary appointments, I believe they are called "Retro-Rods". Some frugal minded individuals limit the feasibility of a restoration by the lint in their pocket. When this type of situation occurs the project car can be at least salvaged for use as one of these retro-rods where at least the their will be an appretiation for keeping the car from being crushed! There is a greater value when Rodders use real sreel cars and not fiberglass replicas. wmsteed, I find value in the body tag as well and as a historical preservationist myself I cant really understand why EFV8 doesnt give extra points if a car has the original intact. I do understand though that because of the way Ford ran their operation and that not all their open body cars had ID TAGS , that may be the reason not much emphasis is placed on these tags because they werent exactly standard procedure on every car. As you know I place a great emphasis on the ID TAG as in the case of my 710 because it may be the only way I can prove my car is a 710 Roadster without correct window detail in the doors.
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| Alan | -- 01-29-2010 @ 6:44 PM |
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I don't need an ID tag to tell what body it is, its not that important. Its time to get over this 37 ID plate you have flogged it to death. Alan.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-29-2010 @ 7:12 PM |
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Alan, 37RAGTOPMAN started this post by saying the doors on my 710 "look authentic". You had said on a previous post there were only 1067 "37" Roadsters made between 85 and 65's and around 8000 units of 760-A two seater cabriolets. If you dont have the doors, window detail,no ID TAG on the car, how can you tell the difference between a 710 Roadster and a 760-A Cabriolet? There does exist an important significance for the BODY ID TAG in such a limited production vehicle in "37" if its one of the only real character defining aspects that seperate it from a higher production 760-A cabriolet model. Dan
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| Alan | -- 01-29-2010 @ 8:25 PM |
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Dan, I know it a 37 Roadster, I don't need the tag to tell me. Its just not as important as your trying to make out it is. Get over it its been flogged to death. Alan.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-30-2010 @ 4:33 AM |
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Alan, FACT: For those who of us who don't posses a profound intuition of exact Ford model body identification, there is physically no difference in the "BODY" besides the ID BODY TAG on a doorless and windowless "37" 710 Roadster and a doorless and windowless "37" two seater Cabriolet. When splitting hairs or "FLOGGING TO DEATH" lets be very clear, that way people dont have to ask twice and can refer to past posts. Dan
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| wmsteed | -- 01-30-2010 @ 7:06 AM |
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Well now! It would appear that "Alan" has a problem with topics that appeal to a number of people as demonstrated by the amount of viewers. Several people have made contributions to this topic, and other topics with similar content, about VIN's & Body ID plates. Some of these posting have stated that "the posters car did not have a body ID plate" while others have maintained that "their cars have Body ID plates". Information has been printed in several publications stating that "EFV8 BODIES THAT WERE SUPPLIED BY COMPANY'S OTHER THAN FORD HAVE (HAD) BODY ID PLATES" These body plates contain the model/style and body number, not the VIN. Think about it, to maintain that some bodies had ID plates, and some did not, makes no sense. How was a vendor, shipper, and receiving assembly plant supposed to keep tract of the body until it was placed on a chassis and received the VIN? We all know that Ford and it's outside suppliers made running changes to the bodies, chassis, etc. Since the VIN means nothing as far as Ford is concerned, how was the supply of parts and/or repair to vehicles accomplished without a tracking number? I hate to refer back to Chrysler again, but I must, because the Chrysler info about their convertible bodies is so complete, being well detailed in the Mechanical Repair Manuals and/or Parts Books. Through the years '37-41, that being the years that Briggs and Murray made convertible bodies for ChryCo cars, reference is made about changes to the bodies and/or attachments there-on based on the body number. Mechanical changes are covered by either the engine number and/or VIN, both of which differ from the body number. I guess the discussion about Body Plates, did they, or did they not...is like talking about what came first, the chicken or the egg? Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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