| Grant | -- 01-03-2014 @ 6:17 AM |
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Our '36 has been converted to hydraulic brakes using 1939 parts. Front brake shoes were installed in June, but now the left front wheel cylinder is leaking. The backing plate as well as the rear sidewall of the tire are wet. Which supplier would be best to deal with? I would like to purchase the highest quality product available for this application. Should the right front wheel cylinder be replaced at the same time? Or would it be better to leave well enough alone, since that side is dry and not leaking?
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| TomO | -- 01-03-2014 @ 9:41 AM |
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C&G Ford parts is a good supplier, but you may not need a new wheel cylinder, just a kit. If you put in new cylinders when you installed the brakes, the wheel cylinder casting should be fine. Dis assemble the cylinder and look for pits or score marks. If there are none, order a repair kit and hone the cylinder to get a nice crosshatch pattern, lubricate the bore and the rubber parts with brake fluid and reassemble the cylinder. Put the drum back on, adjust the shoes and then bleed the cylinder. I would also check the shoes to make sure that the tang that fits in the wheel cylinder is not too long as that can cause the cylinder to leak also. Tom
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| supereal | -- 01-03-2014 @ 12:47 PM |
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A leak of that size means something is very wrong with that wheel cylinder or something close to it. Take a close look at the rubber brake hose and where it is threaded into the cylinder. The flare at the ends of the hose may be damaged, or the connector was cross threaded. That would explain why the fluid is on the outside of the backing plate. Most leaks occur inside the drum, and pulling that should tell you if the leak is actually the cylinder. Any brake fluid leak is an accident waiting to happen.
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| TomO | -- 01-04-2014 @ 8:29 AM |
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Good catch Supereal. I missed the part about the backing plate. Tom
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| trjford8 | -- 01-04-2014 @ 9:21 AM |
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I wonder if they forgot the copper washer on the hose?
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| alanwoodieman | -- 01-04-2014 @ 11:22 AM |
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some of the new reproduction wheel cylinders that come from china are made wrong!! the holes drilled for the fluid in the cylinders are not in the correct location--when the wheel cylinders are forced in by the ends of the shoes the rubber cup washer goes past this hole and allows the fluid to gradually leak out. the people having these reproduced are aware of the problem and seem to have trouble convincing the mfg (china) to do them correctly. one solution that has been used is to grind a little off the end of the shoe that goes into the cylinder, so the cup is not pushed back beyond the hole-crude but effective. the wheel cylinders (42-48 sizes) that I purchased from auto zone do not have this problem and of 4 cylinders two were made in Isreal, one in Italy, one in Argentina
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| trjford8 | -- 01-05-2014 @ 9:27 AM |
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Now you have a multi-cultural brake system!
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| Grant | -- 01-06-2014 @ 2:15 PM |
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Gentlemen, thank you for your comments and advice. Happy New Year to you and everyone else on Forum. Our garage isn't heated. The weatherman has decided that it's going to be minus 35 here tonight and tomorrow (100 miles east of Detroit). When the thermometer decides to warm up a bit I'll get under the '36 again and take a better look at what's going on. Maybe the problem is really the old hose rather than the left front wheel cylinder. Definitely the backing plate and the entire backside of the tire are wet. The wheel cylinders have not been changed. Worldwide Automotive in Albuquerque New Mexico installed the set of four front brake shoes for us on June 28th while we were en route back to Canada from the Golden Jubilee meet in Tahoe. Multi-culturalism is definitely not an issue in this case. Those shoes were made up using genuine Ford parts.....including New Old Stock linings......by Louis Cote in Fallon Nevada on June 20th while we were changing the left water pump in his shop which he had graciously allowed us to use. I'll let you know what my closer examination reveals.
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| Grant | -- 01-11-2014 @ 3:50 AM |
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I have been back under the front of the car. The flex lines look pretty old to me. Since this '36 has spent most of the last sixty years in storage, it appears that the best approach would be to change both of those flex lines and both front wheel cylinders as well at the same time. All brand new top quality stuff. Since the vehicle is being used as a long-distance roadrunner (see page 65 of the November December V8 Times), I'm also thinking about installing a Bob Drake EC-410 1939-1940 master cylinder adapter kit along with a C9AZ-2140-D dual master cylinder so that the braking system will be safer. Those parts are shown on page 387 of the current Drake catalog. Is this a proper approach to upgrading brakes on a '36 ? Has anyone else out there done this conversion ? Or a similar one ? If so, how did it work out ?
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| Grant | -- 01-11-2014 @ 3:55 AM |
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Tom O has recommended C&G as a supplier for front wheel cylinders. Would that be a Grade A source for the front flex lines as well ? I do understand that a repair kit might work just fine for the wheel cylinders, but the lengthy storage issue does cause me some concern and all-new parts don't seem to be a terribly expensive proposition.
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| TomO | -- 01-11-2014 @ 9:37 AM |
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My recommendation of C&G does not mean that they have a better quality of brake parts, just that they have great customer service. With so many parts being made by unknown suppliers, new parts may not be as good a quality as the parts currently in the car. My reference is to rebuild the master and wheel cylinders if they are not pitted. If they are pitted, then replacement parts should be installed. The master cylinder and the hoses can be purchased at local parts houses. Kits can also be purchased locally. I like to do this because when I have a problem, I don't have to wait a week or more for a replacement. You can have your parts house check to see if Wagner has any re-manufactured wheel cylinders available. Tom
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| supereal | -- 01-11-2014 @ 12:08 PM |
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As usual, I agree with Tom. I recommend C&G frequently because they rarely backorder anything. They are honest about what is in stock and I have yet to be disappointed with the quality of their parts. While I admire Bob Drake, and his commitment to the hobby, backorders there have become a problem. If you would like to shop for good brake conversions, try Chassis Engineering. Their catalog has a full page for 1935-1940 Ford brakes. Their web site is www.chassisengineeringinc.com
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| Grant | -- 01-16-2014 @ 11:35 AM |
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Tom O and Supereal......thanks again for your input. Chassis Engineering does sell a similar master cylinder adapter plate, a little bit cheaper than Drake. As it turns out, front wheel cylinders and rebuild kits are not available locally in this area. They would have to be ordered from out of town via a distributor in the USA. Jerry at the Wagner tech line 800-325-8886 advised that their 1939 front wheel cylinder part numbers were deleted as far back as 1995. And they do not sell re-manufactured hydraulic wheel cylinders of any kind. However Wagner does list rear wheel cylinders (WC25098 and WC25099, left and right respectively). Kyle at C&G was very helpful this morning. That supplier has the correct step bore 21A-2061 and 21A-2062 front wheel cylinders, as well as front flex lines which will fit properly. C&G can also supply front wheel cylinder rebuild kits. The shop which is going to do the master cylinder conversion for us will also be installing the front wheel cylinders and flex lines as part of the job. They don't want to "chase parts", and require the car to arrive with all necessary parts provided. I have therefore ordered new front wheel cylinders and flex lines from C&G. If somehow a problem develops, C&G also has rebuild kits in stock so our old cylinders can be rebuilt if that turns out to be necessary. QUESTION...... Jerry the Wagner tech has recommended that we install an adjustable proportioning valve as part of the new braking system so that the rear wheels won't lock up if the brakes are applied hard. Do you think that is a good idea? Is anyone else out there using an adjustable proportioning valve on their early V8?
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| supereal | -- 01-16-2014 @ 2:50 PM |
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If you install a dual master cylinder system, he is correct. The proportioning valve prevents one set of the two from being over applied in a panic stop, thus causing a lockup and skid. Some valves are adjustable. Brakes are one of the most carefully designed parts of any vehicle. "Home brewing" can result in a dangerous situation. Given the age of most collector cars, a dual system is a very good idea, but only with expert guidance.
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| 40cpe | -- 01-16-2014 @ 7:23 PM |
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This dual cylinder/proportioning valve subject came up during this thread on the Fordbarn http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49305 Scroll down until you see a post by Zeke…PA He has installed '39 brakes with a dual cylinder on his '37 and didn't have to use a valve. I've talked to him off-line, he is a helpful person and would probably be glad to share his experience with you.
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| Grant | -- 01-19-2014 @ 7:18 AM |
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40cpe...... That's a very interesting series of posts on Fordbarn, a site which I've never seen before. Evidently there are other flathead fanatics out there who find the early braking systems to be a little bit scary sometimes. Could you please let me know how I might go about contacting Zeke off-line ?
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| TomO | -- 01-19-2014 @ 2:41 PM |
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You can send Zeke a PM by mousing over his name and then clicking send PM. The Fordbarn doesn't have the SEND PM box like this Forum. Tom
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| 40cpe | -- 01-19-2014 @ 2:46 PM |
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As TomO said, PM him on the forum. You might have to register to do it, but the Fordbarn and this site complement each other and every old Ford addict should belong to each one, IMO.
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| Grant | -- 01-20-2014 @ 11:50 AM |
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Okay, I'm confused. Or computer-incompetent. Or more likely both. How does a person send a PM to Zeke on this web site's Forum when his posting is on Fordbarn ? And what does IMO mean? I have never seen that abbreviation anywhere before.
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| 42merc | -- 01-20-2014 @ 12:59 PM |
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IMO , in my opinion You will have to join the Ford Barn site to PM (private message) Zeke. IMO it's a great site. This message was edited by 42merc on 1-20-14 @ 1:00 PM
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| Grant | -- 07-12-2014 @ 4:50 AM |
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Modifications and repair work are now complete. All parts previously mentioned have been installed in our '36 roadster, including the new 1969 Ford dual reservoir master cylinder. The result is a massive improvement in braking performance. All parts fit perfectly. The only silly-ass problem which developed was trying to find a correct replacement banjo bolt........the old one broke during disassembly. Two minor modifications were necessary: 1. a small cover plate had to be installed in the floor ahead of the battery box to allow access to the top of the longer new master cylinder 2. because the dual reservoir master cylinder intruded into the battery box, a vertical steel plate was welded into the middle of the battery box and the car now has a state-of-the-art Optima battery instead of the old acid unit (thank you to Ken Bounds who recommended Amazon as a supplier.......low price, fast service, and free shipping). FORUM refuses to let me post photos. If anyone wants to see photographs of the installation, I would be pleased to provide them via email. Or maybe another member could contact me at 519-666-2891 and walk me through the Browse process so that photos can be posted here? I simply cannot make it work.
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