| Hardie | -- 08-25-2013 @ 7:05 AM |
|
Subject: 1948 Sedan Coupe/ 239,all stock: I've put up with this chatter for about thirty years and am getting tired of it. When pulling away is first gear I am experiencing a significant chatter, enough to shake the front fenders. It can be avoided by either slipping the clutch at idle to almost a stall or by putting the hammer down and dumping the clutch. (Hard on the Cokers) Neither are good options. The car will pull away in second gear smooth as butter but that's not always practical either. Anyone out there have a solution?? Tks Mac Mac
|
|
| TomO | -- 08-25-2013 @ 8:05 AM |
|
Since you have been putting up with this for 30 years, could you please let us know if you have replaced any parts or taken any other action to reduce the chatter? Tom
|
|
| alanwoodieman | -- 08-25-2013 @ 9:50 AM |
|
have you changed--the motor/trans mounts? , are they tight, rubber not worn out. Have you changed the clutch-pressure plate? warped clutch disc will cause this shudder, oil on the clutch will cause this also, put the car against a stop and rev up and slowly release the clutch and sort of burn it a little, this process will work if it is getting oil on it. Make sure the drain hole with the cotter pin is open.
|
|
| Old Henry | -- 08-25-2013 @ 4:48 PM |
|
Hardie, your story is very discouraging for me because I just had my engine rebuilt including everything to do with the clutch and now have the very same annoying chatter that you have. I was hoping it would get better with time but if you've had yours for 30 years looks like it don't. Just had a lengthy discussion about this here: http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=18&Topic=6353&keywords=shudder The conclusion I reached from all that was said is that clutch chatter is pretty much an Act of God or pure chance. Some have it and some don't and it doesn't seem to have any correlation with how the clutch was rebuilt or refurbished. The very same engine rebuilder who rebuilt my engine 35,000 miles ago, afterwhich I had no chatter, did the very same thing all over again when he rebuilt it 5,000 miles ago (piston came apart) and now I have what I never had before. I even got some Fuller's Earth and dumped it into the clutch as someone said that might help. It didn't. All of my engine mounts are new. I have no oil on the clutch (it chattered from the first start up.) Go figure. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
|
|
| Hardie | -- 08-25-2013 @ 5:35 PM |
|
Lots of good points to consider, thanks to you all. Thanks "Old Henry", for the link. I've read through it all and it certainly addresses the problem. I've had a few flat-top Fords; all were "chatterless" and I didn't realize how good that was. Besides the '48 I have a stock '35 that's smooth as silk. I've always liked the '35 and I now have a better appreciation of it. As far as the chatter in my '48; I've lived with it this long, I guess I can live with it for a while yet. I've addressed all the points covered in the forum at least once, some several times but the old girl still wants to talk back at motivation time. I've been driving standard transmission cars and trucks for close to 50 years and the best part of 2 million miles and have never needed to replace a clutch. I have replaced clutches and related paraphernalia in cars I've restored, usually out of convenience as opposed to necessity. Thanks again you guys. Keep the shiny side up !! Mac
|
|
| TomO | -- 08-26-2013 @ 7:52 AM |
|
Mac, Most clutch chatter is caused by items external to the clutch, but the pressure plate can cause it and so can a bad disc. Many times people will attach the pressure plate without blocking the finger to relieve the pressure on the disc. This will warp the pressure plate and cause clutch chatter. If you decide that it is enough of a nuisance, have your pressure plate and disc rebuilt by Fort Wayne Clutch and have your flywheel surfaced. After installing the flywheel, check it for runout before installing the clutch. Make sure that the the pressure is off of the disc and all of the bolts are tightened equally. Tom
|
|
| shogun1940 | -- 08-27-2013 @ 4:17 AM |
|
has anyone ever checked the runout of the flywheel? My 48 is all old and original and it is smooth,with old mounts .
|
|
| fenbach | -- 09-19-2013 @ 1:53 PM |
|
tom, you mention "blocking the finger" before installing a pressure plate. did you mean fingers - all 3? i reinstalled the original pressure plate years ago without blocking anything, and it worked just fine. just yesterday installed a rebuilt pressure plate and have to hope i didn't warp anything. would any good come of loosing it, blocking the fingers and tightening it back up? as an aside, i bought replacement pressure plate bolts, Mr. Gasket brand, only to find they were too long. 1" rather than 3/4. i cut and ground them back to 3/4. roy nazewicz told me he just sells off-the-shelf bolts. anybody know if it really makes any difference? thanks. bob
|
|
| supereal | -- 09-20-2013 @ 11:20 AM |
|
Yes, it does make a difference. The pressure plate to flywheel mounting bolts are special fasteners, part number 350433-S. They are available from C&G for $20 as a set of six. They are 5/16"-18 X .77". Any rotating part must be carefuuly balanced, and any deviation will usually show up as a periodic vibration. The reason to block the three "fingers" of the pressure plate is to prevent warping of the plate cover. Here, again any warping of the cover will show up, mostly as excessive cluth chatter. These tolerances are very small, but very important. Most of the chatter(or shudder) results from the reformulation of the facing to eliminate asbestos. That is why many disc replacements shudder when the old disc didn't. If your disc isn't burned, or worn down close to the rivets, I'd reuse it, if your clutch didn't have excessive shudder before. Some shudder is to be expected with old Fords because it is built into the driveline's archaic design. Many attemts to fix it, such as engine rods, were futile. I'm attaching a diagram for a brace that was commonly sold in the 40's, but did little good. This message was edited by supereal on 9-20-13 @ 11:21 AM
|
|
| TomO | -- 09-22-2013 @ 8:10 AM |
|
Supereal, thanks for answering the question. So many people forget this simple step and then have problems. I also measure the distance from the top of the cover to the fingers to make sure that all of them are equal when the plate is installed. A slight difference in the distance can also lead to clutch chatter. Tom
|
|
| supereal | -- 09-22-2013 @ 11:36 AM |
|
Didn't mean to step on your answer, Tom. It is the rare old Ford that doesn't have some clutch chatter, as shown by the frequent posts on the subject. My Model A's had solid spoke clutch disks, and shudder was rare. I suppose that when spring centers were added, it was expected it would help, if not cure it. That doesn't seem to be the case. Many manufacturers of vehicles in the early days fought the same problem. There were multiple disk clutches, such as in the very early A's, wet clutches, cork facings, etc, even magnetic couplings, but none eliminated it altogether. When I reassembled my '47, I carefully refaced the flywheel and checked it for runout, replaced pilot and transmission bearings, and calibrated the pressure plate and disk before careful installation. A new release ahaft and bushings were installed, and the linkage was renewed. Still, I have enough shudder to be noticable. For those who hope to find a cure, I suspect they, too, will be disappointed.
|
|
| TomO | -- 09-24-2013 @ 5:49 AM |
|
I am glad that you did answer. I have company visiting me and cannot always get time to answer questions on here. Thanks again. Tom
|
|
| 1938cr | -- 09-24-2013 @ 9:03 AM |
|
Hi all: What is the process for blocking the fingers? Thanks, Charlie
|
|
| TomO | -- 09-25-2013 @ 8:06 AM |
|
Charlie, I just put wooden wedges between the cover and the fingers. Put pressure on the fingers and drive the wedges in with light taps from a hammer. Tom
|
|
| 1938cr | -- 09-25-2013 @ 8:14 AM |
|
Thanks, I will give it a try. Charlie
|
|
| fenbach | -- 09-25-2013 @ 8:17 PM |
|
with all this talk about replacing a pressure plate, i thought i'd mention that mac van pelt has the torque specs on his web site http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_servicelinks.htm click on General Torque Specifications for 1932-48 V8 oil on the clutch plate will make it grab. something to check for.
|
|
| EFV-8 Club Forum : | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum |
| Topic: | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=18&Topic=6453 |