| bwhitworth | -- 07-28-2013 @ 2:02 PM |
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1940 Ford When I let the clutch out there is a shudder in low and second gear. Is there an adjustment to correct the problem? Or do I need to replace the disk? Thanks for your help. Bob
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| 42wagon | -- 07-28-2013 @ 4:16 PM |
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Bob Clutch shudder is a problem that Henry recognized but was never able to successfully correct. The basic problem is the engine shifts back and forth on its mounts as you engage the clutch. Ford provided anti-chatter rods but these really didn't cure the problem. A number of things can be done to minimize the problem. If your clutch disk is relatively new I would not replace it. If it is old replacement may help. What is the condition of the motor mounts? There are two at the front of the engine and one behind the transmission. These should be new and the bolts properly tightened. This will minimize the problem but it will never go completely away.
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| Old Henry | -- 07-28-2013 @ 4:33 PM |
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I jumped to this thread with interest as I have brand new clutch in my 47 that chatters worse than the old clutch did. Pretty annoying. Hope it improves as things wear down but after 2600 miles it sure hasn't. New engine mounts plenty tight. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
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| kubes40 | -- 07-28-2013 @ 4:35 PM |
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As has been previously stated, numerous things can be done to eliminate shudder. It CAN be eliminated. I have replaced more clutches than I care to recall. NEVER has a vehicle shuddered once the complete and necessary repairs were performed. There are two front engine mounts and TWO rear (transmission) mounts. All four should be of good quality rubber and in good condition. The rods that go from the frame to the engine should be straight and tight. When replacing the clutch, be certain the flywheel is true and not glazed. If it is not true (flat) and / or is glazed, shuddering can occur. Placing a new clutch atop a flywheel that has not been trued can cause more problems than if the old (partially grabbing) clutch had been left in place. Be certain the clutch is not contaminated. Shudder as you describe can also be occurring due to a worn input shaft bearing, a worn pilot bearing and / or worn thrust washers within the transmission. Mike "Kube" Kubarth This message was edited by kubes40 on 7-28-13 @ 4:38 PM
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| bwhitworth | -- 07-29-2013 @ 5:14 AM |
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The motor mounts and transmission mounts are new and are tight. The bolts along the side of the trans that bolt into the bell housing are also tight. Bob
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| 40 Coupe | -- 07-29-2013 @ 6:07 AM |
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If you do not have the Anti-chatter rods get a pair and install. Watch what happens to the engine when the clutch is depressed and released if it is moving for and aft the trick is to get it to not move. Also the original pressure plate has a spring plate between the friction linings. The plate slightly separates the linings, this brings the clutch in smoothly and without jerking. If your clutch plate doesn't have the spring plate you may want to change.
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| TomO | -- 07-29-2013 @ 7:56 AM |
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Another cause of clutch chatter is a warped pressure plate or Mal-adjusted release fingers. Place a straight edge across the pressure plate cover and check the distance to each of the release fingers. The distance should be equal within .005. When replacing the clutch or the pressure plate, put wedges between the release fingers and the cover to relive pressure on the clutch disk. This will help to prevent warping the cover when you tighten the bolts. Old Henry, the rear motor mount on your postwar Ford needs to be made from very firm rubber. If it gets oil soaked, it will cause chatter. If the motor mounts are good, you will have to examine the pressure plate and the flywheel for the cause of your chatter. It will probably never get better on its own. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 7-29-13 @ 8:00 AM
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| supereal | -- 07-29-2013 @ 9:30 AM |
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It is disappointing to replace the clutch and find that the shudder is still there, or even worse. The above suggestions cover most of the remedies, but the root cause is that the disk facings are now an "organic" material. This was done when asbestos was discovered to be a health hazard. The old time cure for shudder or slipping was to place the front bumper against a tree or other immovable object and burn off the oil or other substances on the disk. If you do that now, is is likely the disk will be ruined. The trick is to engage the clutch as quickly as you can. This takes plenty of practice, particularly since the clutch pedal disappeared from most cars years ago, and clutching became a lost art.
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| carcrazy | -- 07-29-2013 @ 1:22 PM |
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Here is some information for solving clutch chatter from my Crosley friends. Try a few squirts of white vinegar or Fuller's Earth on clutch plate. Several applications may be required till chatter goes away.
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| fla48 | -- 07-29-2013 @ 6:47 PM |
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I am having the same problem as Old Henry. When I rebuilt my 48, I replaced the disk, pressure plate, bearing , bushing and all three motor mounts. I even pulled the new clutch and pressure plate, and sent them out for a rebuild. No help. Later had the flywheel resurfaced. No help. The only way I have been able to stop the chatter is to keep the engine as close to idle as possible as I rapidly let the clutch out. I also get chatter when I down shift to second. I have been thinking about re-installing the old original unit, that never had one bit of chatter.
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| carcrazy | -- 07-29-2013 @ 9:36 PM |
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One thing that can cause clutch chatter that might be overlooked is looseness in the shock mounts to the rear axle. If the rear shock links are worn to the point where they are loose, the clutch will chatter, it will be worse in reverse.
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| Old Henry | -- 07-30-2013 @ 7:11 AM |
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carcrazy, clutch novice here. I'm ready to try anything short of removing my engine. Can the white vinegar or fuller's earth be applied without removing the engine, like through the inspection panel? Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
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| carcrazy | -- 07-30-2013 @ 3:32 PM |
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Yes, the white vinegar or Fuller's Earth can be applied through the opening on the top of the transmission case once the inspection cover has been removed.
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| Old Henry | -- 07-30-2013 @ 11:07 PM |
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I'm going to do it and see if it improves any. I'll let you know. Where does one buy Fuller's earth? Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
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| kubes40 | -- 07-31-2013 @ 6:34 AM |
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Cleaning contaminants from the clutch area is always a good practice. Eliminating the cause of those contaminants getting to the clutch of course is the wisest thing to do prior to installing a clutch. To reiterate my earlier post, if a new clutch is installed and the shudder is worse, there are other issues that need to be addressed. If you are certain you'd installed a good quality clutch assembly (plate, disc & bearing) and all FOUR mounts are in good shape, you must look further downward on the drive train. Most likely transmission issues. Often to do any job correctly, it takes more time and more cash but ultimately, the reward is well worth the additional efforts.
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| carcrazy | -- 07-31-2013 @ 9:12 AM |
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To find where to buy Fuller's earth do a Google search. It will provide a number of sources.
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| supereal | -- 07-31-2013 @ 6:51 PM |
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Introducing contaminants to the clutch assemby simply causes slippage. This may reduce the typical Ford shudder, but will hasten the need to replace at least the clutch disk.
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| silverchief | -- 08-01-2013 @ 7:26 AM |
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Reading these threads I consider myself to be very very lucky. I have had my stock 46 about 10 years, and never at any time have I had the slightest chatter, in any gear, at any speed, backward or forward. But - I'm printing these out - just in case that time ever comes.
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| carson nv | -- 08-01-2013 @ 7:43 PM |
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Would you believe Regional Group #4's newsletter is called the "Clutch Chatter"? I was the editor 20 years ago! just sayin. www.clutchchatter.org
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| Old Henry | -- 08-01-2013 @ 8:34 PM |
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Silverchief, I considered myself just as lucky until I recently had my engine rebuilt and the rebuilder said, "You know your clutch has still got a lot of wear in it but since it's such a chore to remove the whole engine to replace it when it wears out lets rebuild it like new now while it's out of the car." Makes sense? So he did. I rue the day. I had no chatter except in reverse before and now have more chatter than I ever have had in the 54 years this car has been in the family. So, no matter what, if your clutch isn't chattering count it as a blessing and never ever mess with it until it just plain don't work no more. Hard lesson learned. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.) This message was edited by Old Henry on 8-1-13 @ 8:35 PM
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| kubes40 | -- 08-02-2013 @ 6:19 AM |
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Henry, Two things come to mind on your situation... fresh engine, well, what your "builder" calls fresh will produce more torque than your old tired engine. And, most likely a poor quality disc was installed. I read about your engine builder and would have little confidence he would know a good disc from a bad one.
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| supereal | -- 08-02-2013 @ 10:57 AM |
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The first outfit to produce a clutch disk with facings that are not similar to the "organic" type now being used, but with the friction characteristics of the asbestors that was used for decades, will make a fortune from old Ford owners, and lots of gratitude.
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| Stroker | -- 08-02-2013 @ 3:36 PM |
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Super: In all fairness, consider that there are many modern clutches out there in the present automotive world that don't shudder, and last a minimum of 50,000+ miles. All of these clutches use modern materials. I agree that modern standard transmission vehicles are engineered to avoid the dreaded shudder, and do not have the "harmonics" associated with our early Ford problem. I firmly believe you hit the nail on the head regarding not precipitating shudder by letting the pedal out slowly, but rather letting it out with a degree of authority. In the 50's, I could always tell if someone else (like my big sister)drove our early Ford, because the previously subdued (by proper clutch use) "shudder" would return. The real issue in my opinion isn't so much the friction coefficient of the disc, or its' material, but the dynamics of how this cyclic "run-away" phenomena occurs. Ford obviously recognized there was a "feedback" problem when they installed the rods to limit axial movement. I would venture a guess that the problem may not be so much the clutch disc friction material as the compliance or lack of pre-load of re-pop engine mounts, and the hesitant clutch habits of modern drivers. Mainly, I think it is a problem that our generation learned to live with, and the next generation is flustered by.
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| Stroker | -- 08-02-2013 @ 3:43 PM |
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Deleted duplicate This message was edited by Stroker on 8-2-13 @ 4:23 PM
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| Stroker | -- 08-02-2013 @ 3:43 PM |
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Deleted This message was edited by Stroker on 8-2-13 @ 4:26 PM
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| Stroker | -- 08-02-2013 @ 3:43 PM |
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deleted triplicate This message was edited by Stroker on 8-2-13 @ 4:28 PM
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| supereal | -- 08-02-2013 @ 5:47 PM |
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Could be, Dan, but the real culprit in the clutch shudder matter is the archaic design of the Ford drive line which endured from the first Model T's until the advent of the open drive line in '49. When engine power was mild, it worked, but as engines got bigger, the transfer of power from the rear axle to the engine, and the consequent movement of the whole drive train, amplified by the clutch linkage, produced the annoying shudder. This was recognized with the rods that appeared briefly to anchor the engine, and thus the drive train, in place. They proved useless, and were discontinued. I agree that there were lots of designs, such as the Hudson wet clutch, that could have been tried, but old Henry's steadfast refusal to try them left the basic problem intact. His resistance to change nearly doomed the company several times, and probably would have succeeded if he had lived and Henry II hadn't endorsed the radical "new Ford" of 1949. The "shudder" is part of Henry'y legacy, and we just have to accept it as part of the old Ford "charm".
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| kubes40 | -- 08-03-2013 @ 7:29 AM |
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Super, I have learned a lot from you and always look to your posts for more new found knowledge. This time, with all due respect, I simply can't agree with you. I have had dozens of early Fords, mostly '39 - '40 and have never had a problem with chatter. It can most certainly be eliminated. I have done six "clutches" in the past five years... NO chatter. Period. While I agree with you in part, Ol' Henry did in fact kept an archaic design longer than most likely reasonable, it was a design that worked. Even with today's modern materials, a properly installed clutch assembly in to a properly maintained vehicle... NO problem. It's probably not your intention but your posts I believe give readers the impression this is something they need to live with. They don't. Respectfully, Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| supereal | -- 08-03-2013 @ 9:51 AM |
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Thanks for the kind words, Mike. You are my "go to" guy on many subjects, as you know. I lost count of how many clutches I've put in over the years, and most of them had some shudder. I must be missing something. We have a customer's "barn find" '39 standard in our shop, and the engine is coming out next week. I'll pay considerable attention to the clutch. We always resurface the flywheel and replace the pilot bearing. When I rebuilt my '47, I had all of that, plus new transmission ball bearings, yet it still has a bit of shudder. Years ago, we used to loosen the clutch housing bolts a bit, then run the engine while we worked the clutch, then retightened the bolts. It usually reduced the problem. In some cases, shimming the joint between the block and the transmission helped, as well, as any misalignment between the block and the transmission results in an off center situation regarding the face of the flywheel and the disk, producing shaking. This message was edited by supereal on 8-3-13 @ 2:48 PM
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| Old Henry | -- 08-03-2013 @ 4:41 PM |
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Well, I got my bag of Fuller's earth in today and applied some to the clutch disk and plate. Didn't help any. But, with the floor out and the inspection plate off I could watch the clutch while the "shudder/chatter" was going on. I couldn't tell by watching it what the problem was. I'm going to put a video on YouTube to see what you think. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.) This message was edited by Old Henry on 8-3-13 @ 5:20 PM
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| shogun1940 | -- 08-05-2013 @ 9:46 AM |
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has anyone checked out the thrust bearing, if the crank moves back and forth it could cause a chatter,, just a thought
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| 1883warren | -- 08-07-2013 @ 9:00 PM |
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Absolutely right, you need a clutch disc with the internal 'springs' that allow a smooth and easy contact. As to those 'anti-chatter' rods ... I tossed mine a long time ago, these only transfer engine vibration and noise directly to the frame, and into your ears. If you clutch is the right kind, good straight pressure plate... toss the rods in the junk. Both my '34 and '35 cars were smooth as silk, and my present '36 is the same. The spring-loaded clutch plate is the ultimate answer. Warren
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| 42wagon | -- 08-08-2013 @ 3:45 AM |
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Guys As I read through the responses I see way too much emphasis on the clutch while the real problem is the way the drive train is mounted. Yes, you should have a new spring loaded clutch plate with material approximating what Ford installed in the first place. But what you really need are good motor and transmission mounts properly tightened. Recently I installed new mounts for the engine and transmission and the shudder I had been experiencing is gone. At least for now. Given enough driving time I believe it will be back to some extent. It is a problem that Ford knew about and couldn't solve even with the anti-chatter rods. I think today we are used to modern slick systems and are surprised by what the earlier car owners had to put up with. How many of us are driving modern cars that don't have automatic transmissions? You are driving a vintage vehicle, enjoy it with all its faults.
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| supereal | -- 08-08-2013 @ 12:31 PM |
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All clutch disks are "spring loaded", unless you have a Model A, when disks just had spokes. I've been dealing with clutch shudder for over sixty years, and still haven't solved the problem. I don't feel bad, as Ford couldn't either.
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| Stroker | -- 08-08-2013 @ 2:52 PM |
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I have often pondered why some early Fords have clutch shudder that seems to defy solutions, and others do not. I have come to the conclusion that it is, in many cases a matter of cyclic feedback. When the Ford driveline was first developed, the input came from a planetary transmission. The switch to the 3-Speed in 1928 first utilized a multiple-disc try clutch, and then finally (also in 1928) the more familiar single disc/pressure plate design. The driveline itself, while evolving in housing design, and beefier internals such as the straddle-mount pinion, is essentially the same as a Model T, as Supereal has previously point out. What didn't change, is the fact that it contains long torsion bars in the form of the drive shaft and axle shafts, all contained in a rigid housing. These springy "innards" dampen some impulses, but also can reflect stored-up energy back to the clutch. Combine his with the variables associated with motor mount compliance, and we get an oscillation that is hard to control. Ford tried to mitigate it with the hollow tubular driveshafts in some years, and the anti-chatter rods. What finally put the problem to rest, I believe was switching to the industry standard open driveline in 1949. Of course many other cars had torque tube drive shafts during the 30's and 40's, but I think the Ford problem could have been solved by simply making the axle shafts beefier.
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| TomO | -- 08-09-2013 @ 7:37 AM |
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Dan, I believe that the transverse spring makes the Ford more likely to get clutch chatter. As you said many other makes had torque tube drive without clutch chatter, but had separate rear springs. As Mike said, if everything is right and you learn the Ford method of clutch engagement, you will seldom encounter the clutch chatter. Tom
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| Stroker | -- 08-09-2013 @ 8:06 AM |
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TomO: I believe you are correct. So many factors were eliminated in 1949, it's difficult to pin down a single source. Dan
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| Stroker | -- 08-09-2013 @ 8:07 AM |
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Deleted double post. This message was edited by Stroker on 8-9-13 @ 9:06 AM
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