| carson nv | -- 07-19-2013 @ 7:14 PM |
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Hey all! Im new to the forum but not the V8 Club. Ive really learned a lot tonight reading. I recently finished assembling a '40 Deluxe Wagon. Its a long story but when I brought it home the car was in many pieces but the mechanical and electrical were done. The car is now complete but I cant get the dang thing to cool down! It runs just below the hot mark and any kind of hill will push it over the edge. Idling in the garage will eventually boil it too. The dwell and timing are set perfect. The brakes don't drag, hot or cold. The muffler pings like it should when you bang on it. Im now using Skip's water pumps. I took the radiator to an expert radiator shop and had it flow tested and checked. The flow couldn't be any better. No corrosion at all in the radiator. It runs like a champ and has about 400 miles now thanks to the Grand Tour from Tahoe Last month. (That was the only day I could attend the meet). Overheated twice that day. Im at my wits end with this thing! Its undriveable when its hot out! The engine was built by Red Hamilton's shop just before he moved from Sacramento. I never would think that the problem could be internal. I have no idea what the bore is. Its suppose to be a '39 truck engine. 9T on the heads. The other thing Ive noticed is that it burned all the paint off of the intake manifold below the carburetor where the exhaust crosses over. Could this be a clue?? Anyway...any suggestions would be welcome. It saddens me to think I'm going to have to take it back apart. This message was edited by carson nv on 7-19-13 @ 7:15 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 07-20-2013 @ 12:10 AM |
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Welcome to the Forum, good looking set of wheels you have there! We'll try to help you get it right without tearing it down. First, let's determine the exact problem you have... You didn't say what the symptoms were, "overheating" can mean different things to different people. A gauge reading hot means nothing, really. Is the radiator blowing off while you're driving? If it only blows when you stop, that's not unusual. Do you have to add gallons of water, of just top it off? You should have a small air space at the top of the radiator, just to the bottom of the fill tube. Do you run thermostats? Take them out. Skips pumps need the extra flow, and you'll only experience a few minutes longer to warm up in the morning. Do you have a 4 lb pressure cap on your radiator? This will give you a few more degrees F before it boils over. If you have the overflow tube separate from the fill cap, you'll also need Skips 3 1/2 lb pressure valve on the bottom of the overflow tube. Is your fan operating properly, and your pumps as well? A loose belt will allow slippage and heat. Do you have a lower radiator splash pan installed? This is important to direct flow through the radiator and not under it. Is your fan position close to the radiator? Whatever you can do to bring them closer together will be a big help. Are youy using antifreeze? I know it gets cold in Carson, but this is summer, and nothing cools better than water. Antifreeze can produce foam, not your friend.Don't use hard water, as it will leave deposits in the system. A rust inhibitor is needed also. I'm not sure how to determine if you have a blockage in the exhaust, but I've not heard that a rap on the muffler is sufficient to rule it out. As a last item to check, but not least, have your radiator shop run a test at the radiator cap for exhaust gasses. Bad news, sorry. Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 7-20-13 @ 12:19 AM
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| carson nv | -- 07-20-2013 @ 7:35 AM |
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Hi Alan, thanks for the reply. To answer your questions, when I say overheating I mean it. Its not a gauge problem. It does push coolant out when driving if I work it hard like going up hill. Also does it around town when going slow. As long as I stay on level ground at 35 mph plus, it will stay just below the H mark. After I experienced loosing a lot of coolant, I installed an overflow tank to catch it. That works really well but the system isn't pressurized at all. I never have to add coolant. The thermostats are out and the amount of flow is amazing really. The fan is very close to the radiator and the belt is snug. It has the pan under the radiator too. I was using antifreeze at a 50/50 mix along with some "purple ice". I will switch to good water and rust inhibitor when I put the radiator back in. One thing I hadn't mentioned is that the car sat for 17 years prior to coming to me. Is it possible that the engine has severe corrosion inside? When I stick my finger in the outlet at the top of the head, I get some brown grit out. I definitely want to flush the block thoroughly but Im not sure what to use. I read that vinegar is good for that. Seems like it would take a lot of it to fill each side of the block, but ok. Maybe you have a better suggestion? I havnt ruled out the muffler. It blew a whole bunch of cr*p out when I first got it running a few months ago. I have a "Smithys" muffler on the shelf I can try for comparison. Matt
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| supereal | -- 07-20-2013 @ 8:03 AM |
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The brown grit you found is likely core sand left over from the block casting. If you found it with your finger, it is probable a pocket of the stuff has come loose and reached your radiator. We poke around in the water jacket when we rebuild an engine, and usually find lots of it. I suspect the increase circulation of the new water pumps has caused the sand to be loosened, ending up in the radiator. Flow testing isn't always an accurate indicator of how many tubes are plugged. I'd pull off the water pumps and back flush the block with water thru the outlets on the heads until the water runs clear. Vinegar or commercial flush compounds really don 't do much, in my experience. If you find more sand, the radiator will need to be cleaned, as well.
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| ford38v8 | -- 07-20-2013 @ 9:33 AM |
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Matt, Supereal has great suggestions, the years since the rebuild and the loosened core sand do indicate a backflush is in order. As part of the process though, I'd also do the vineger thing. Vinegar is cheap compared to the comercial cleaners which are now useless anyway due to the EPA requirements. You can do the backflush with a garden hose: Remember, there are two separate cooling systems in a flathead, each needs its own backflush. Alan
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| carson nv | -- 07-20-2013 @ 9:50 AM |
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Thanks guys. Definitely gonna do the backflush. supereal, you say to do it with the water pumps off which is fine but is it ok to block off the hose inlet on the pumps for a soaking with vinegar? Then remove the pumps for flushing??
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| carcrazy | -- 07-20-2013 @ 12:45 PM |
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Hi, Have you tried using an air deflector at the top of the grille? It fits between the grille and the radiator to deflect the air flow through the radiator. It doesn't have to be an expensive chrome plated or stainless steel item but can be simply made of sheet metal or thick cardboard. It can be held in place with cable ties or twisties so as to be easily removable when you want to show the car.
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| Old Henry | -- 07-20-2013 @ 1:26 PM |
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Here are detailed step by step instructions of how I backflush the 59A-B engine both sides at the same time you might want to look at: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83557 I've heard good things about filling the cooling system with vinegar (yes - 5 gallons of it) and driving it a week or two then backflushing and filling with water and baking soda to neutralize the acid, flush again and fill with coolant. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
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| Pauls39 | -- 07-20-2013 @ 2:10 PM |
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Use a vacuum gage to determine if the exhaust is plugged. The burned paint may be a clue. Also re- torque the heads to be sure the gaskets are sealing. If the overheating continues, remove the upper radiator hoses, and the fan belt. Put enough clear water in the system to cover the water outlets in the heads. Run the engine and look for exhaust gas bubbles in the water outlets. You may have a blown head gasket, warped head, or a crack in the block or head.
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| supereal | -- 07-20-2013 @ 3:09 PM |
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Sure. If you want to soak the block, do so with the pumps in place. Lime builds up in the block over the years, and a coating less than paint reduces cooling efficiency significantly. As your problem appeared after the installation of the new pumps, i doubt the lime had much to do with it, but soak it at least overnight. The interior of the block is very rough, and any foreign material there can seriously impact cooling. Fords have always been subject to heating, as the exhaust is routed down thru the water jacket. That is why everything must be in good condition for reliable operation. The burned paint over the intake manifold heat risers is normal. This message was edited by supereal on 7-20-13 @ 3:13 PM
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| carson nv | -- 07-20-2013 @ 4:23 PM |
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Thanks for all the great advice. I have a new outlook and several things to try. A little of each may just do the trick! he said optimistically
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| drkbp | -- 07-20-2013 @ 6:35 PM |
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carson, I know better than to get into this but here goes anyway. First of all, very nice car. When you have tried all of the other suggestions you may very well find out the reason. I hope so. However, checking the flow rate tells me the radiator is not new. That said, it does not have to be new to work well. The one in my '35 Cabriolet that I drive every couple of days was last checked by Throwers Radiator here in Houston in 1975. It cools right and I use 160 degree standard thermostats with it. I drive to our farm and back every once and a while, 200 miles. We do have a number of very "nice looking" radiators in our shop "collection". The only problem is they will NOT cool correctly. I will let the others tell you why. Brassworks in Paso Robles CA makes your radiator. I don't work for them, I just use their radiators. It will work right like the car came from the factory. I would not order one until I checked ALL the other possibilities, of course. But, if you come to that conclusion I would get the thicker core. Ken
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| TomO | -- 07-21-2013 @ 9:26 AM |
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Because your engine overheats when driving, I would look at the coolant capacity and flow, then combustion product in the cooling system, plugged exhaust, valve timing and finally look for a worn crankshaft timing gear. The cooling capacity should be 22 quarts without a heater, the heater holds a little less than a quart. With Skips pumps you are getting much more flow than with the stock pumps. Radiator shops can check for combustion products in the coolant. They can come from gasket problems or small cracks in the heads or block. Use a vacuum gauge to determine if your exhaust is plugged or the valve timing is off. Here is a link on how to use and interpret a vacuum gauge. http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm If the crank gear was not replaced when the engine was rebuilt, it could have steps worn into it allowing the idle timing to be correct but be off under load. Tom
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| supereal | -- 07-22-2013 @ 3:29 PM |
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Recently, Popular Mechanics magazine published an article by no less than famed vehicle collector Jay Leno extolling the virtues of a product called "Evans Waterless Coolant" with replaces common coolants. He raves about it as raising the boiling point to about 345 degrees. Anybody out there try it? He said it is about $50 a gallon, but good for years. Ordinarily, I would chalk this up to some baloney, but he is not strange to the collector field.
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| TomO | -- 07-23-2013 @ 8:47 AM |
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Bob, I do not know anything about the coolant, but I have to ask the question: Do you really want your engine to run at 345 degrees or any temperature much above 212 degrees? When the coolant temperature gets above the boiling point of water, our engine tend to vapor lock or the fuel starts to boil in the carburetor. Above 240 degrees most oils will start to deteriorate and engine failure may be on its way. I am also skeptical about any product that says it will remain inert in a cooling system forever. As the coolant goes through it's heating and cooling cycles, I would expect some chemical change. I also wonder how the current contaminants in the cooling system will interact with the coolant. I wrote the above before I did a search on Evan's coolant. I found it can be bought for around $35-$40 and that there was a discussion on the AACA forums about it. Here is the link to it : http://forums.aaca.org/f169/waterless-coolant-experience-309949.html Tom This message was edited by TomO on 7-23-13 @ 8:52 AM
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| supereal | -- 07-23-2013 @ 12:51 PM |
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Thanks, Tom. I was curious whether it had merit, or was just another myth. No, I wouldn't operate an engine at over 300 degrees, but some improvement over the boiling temp of water could be welcome. Of course, we do, in fact, elevate the boiling point by pressurizing the cooling system, inviting other problems. We used to see lots of Subarus with blown head gaskets due to the engine design, but now they went to multiple layer steel head gaskets which, I suspect, will become common as compression and cooling systems continue to rise in pressure.. I wonder if Leno might have an investment in that stuff?
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| BERTHA | -- 07-23-2013 @ 12:56 PM |
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May sound stupid but...does the rad fan suck or blow. Had one that was installed bass-akwards, would run all day sitting at idle....not so much driving. Bob "it's only original once""
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| BERTHA | -- 07-23-2013 @ 12:58 PM |
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Double posts... May sound stupid but...whats with this multiple posting cr@p?? Last one posted four times. Bob This message was edited by BERTHA on 7-23-13 @ 1:38 PM
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| carson nv | -- 07-23-2013 @ 8:05 PM |
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Wow This thread really got off course but I wanted to share an update on my '40. The radiator was still out so I put the lower hoses on turning upward instead of down and plugged them with small spray can lids. Then filled the block on both sides with good pure white vinegar and let it sit for 2 days. The way it was gurgling I knew something good was happening. Tonite I drained it and 1 at a time I held the engine with a block and jack to remove the pumps and flushed the cr*p out of it. I used a pressure nozzle on the hose and blasted it from above and below until it was clean(er). Heres a pic of the first flush.. I cant believe how much debris was in the bottom of that pan.
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| supereal | -- 07-24-2013 @ 6:59 AM |
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Wow! Looks like you hit the mother lode of core sand. When the blocks came out of the foundry, they were placed in a shaking machine to remove the casting sand, but some always escaped more or less. Looks like yours was one of the less. Let us know what effect it had on cooling now. Today's complex castings are made with a different process using plastic foam forms which vaporize in the process, resulting in very smooth interior surfaces.
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| TomO | -- 07-24-2013 @ 8:42 AM |
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You sure did get a desert full of sand out of that block. It is a good thing you did not put your radiator back on before flushing, a lot of that junk would have ended up in your radiator. For information purposes, the 99T heads have a 5.8:1 compression ratio with a 3 3/16 bore and the 81A heads have a 6.2:1 ratio with a 3 1/16 bore. If you are going to put the car on the Concourse, you should have the 81A heads on the engine. If you are want to just drive and enjoy the car, the 99T heads will work fine. Tom
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| carson nv | -- 07-25-2013 @ 6:49 AM |
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The problem is that it WAS run with all that for a few hundred miles. I've spent the last 2 evenings cleaning and flushing the radiator. Its looking much better too. The radiator shop was afraid of it. I asked them to hot tank it but he said it might cause even more problems and leaks so its just been detergent and soaking. Then repeat. I hope to have it back together by tomorrow nite. Im crossing my fingers that it made an improvement. There still may be something else but I wont know until I run it. Tom, if this engine is what it appears, would it also have a 4" stroke?
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| TomO | -- 07-25-2013 @ 7:26 AM |
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The 4" stroke did not appear in Mercury or truck engine until 1949. The 4" crankshaft would fit in the early block, so it is possible. The only way to be sure that you have a 4" stroke is to pull the heads and measure it. The same would go for the bore. Tom
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| carson nv | -- 08-01-2013 @ 6:38 PM |
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UPDATE.... Im happy to report that my efforts so far have made a big improvement. I can drive around town with little heating. I still get pretty hot on the highway. The poor old car has 4.11 gears and no overdrive so it turns pretty high RPM. I think Skip's water pumps may work too good at a sustained highway speed. The water doesn't spend enough time in the radiator to get cool. I bought two 1" ID washers that I can grind down to fit where the thermostats would go. It would only be a slight restriction so maybe it will help. Anyway, thanks for all the great advice! It worked for me.
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| shogun1940 | -- 08-02-2013 @ 6:36 AM |
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make sure that your brakes are not dragging at all
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| drkbp | -- 08-02-2013 @ 9:22 AM |
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Carson, I run 160 degree thermostats. These are referred to as "standard" and usually used without a heater. I have the same 4.11 but 21 stud. Run it in the drive with the hood up and idle. Use a kitchen thermometer you have checked against the thermostats. You should see 155 in the top tank after the stats open. Check dash gauge and "see" where 155 degrees is on the dash. It should hold the 155 and/or slowly creep up BUT: be sure and nose it into any breeze, be in the shade, and just at idle. If it will do this, close the hood get in the car and drive it steady somewhere 50-55 mph max. You will "see" it hold the 155 degrees. If you want to go faster, get a 3.78, 3.54 or an overdrive. I have had a 3.54 in the shop for 20 years but never put it in. I like the quick scoot my car has for most of my driving. You are correct, speed of the water pumps is a problem. Western Auto's are too fast. You may be surprised with what the 160 stats will do for you when you check the actual temperature at the top tank water. ken
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| supereal | -- 08-02-2013 @ 10:51 AM |
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There is no such thing as circulating the coolant "too fast". Slowing the coolant flow is a "zero sum" game, as doing so means the coolant arrives at the radiator hotter, further taxing the ability of the radiator to transfer the heat to the air. The idea that the pumps worked "too well" started decades ago, and led to some grinding off vanes in the pumps, or drilling holes in the vanes. We did that to our stock car racers because the engine was always running at full revs, and could pump the coolant out due to high pressure. When the engine was was slowed, it didn't take long to boil. If you are losing coolant thru the overflow, either you are overfilling the radiator, or there is an internal engine problem. The more circulation you have, the more efficient your radiator becomes. The new turbine blade pumps are a good improvement, particularly at slow speeds, such as traffic. This message was edited by supereal on 8-2-13 @ 3:09 PM
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| drkbp | -- 08-02-2013 @ 3:20 PM |
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Having been corrected, I can only repeat exactly what I said this morning. However, I should add that I rather use the stats than washers because you may be choking off too much. Stats for 24 studs shouldn't be that much. The in hose stats for the 21's are harder to find. I use NORS Bridgeport 160's and I don't have to clean the engine compartment every time I 50 mph it. As for the other, sounds like someone doesn't drive a stock 21 stud with a good radiator. Mine and the wagon are not race cars but I didn't think that was what we were talking about. ken
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| supereal | -- 08-02-2013 @ 6:20 PM |
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No offense intended, Ken. The restriction in coolant flow by the thermostats does serve a useful purpose by causing a slight pressure in the water jacket that, in turn, supresses hot spots where circulation is poor. These "hot spots" generate steam , causing the coolant to lose contact with the block surface. I agree that radiator condition plays a huge part in cooling performance. When I assembled my '47 years ago, it couldn't make it around the block without boiling. After narrowing the cause to the radiator, I had it boiled and rodded, to no avail. A big investment in a new radiator was the answer and now, more than 15 years later, I can drive at any speed with no signs of trouble.
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| carson nv | -- 08-02-2013 @ 8:55 PM |
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Theres no question that my radiator is not the best. Maybe this winter I can get a new one. I hate to buy anything new like that. I love that mine has an 01A embossed in the top tank. I've gone to great lengths to NOT buy reproduction parts. I love a good swap meet. Like I said before, this car came to me, running and driving. Just not very well. Its a whole lot better than it was 6 months ago. Much because of the advice provided here.
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| TomO | -- 08-03-2013 @ 6:10 PM |
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Rather than put in washers, try pressurizing the radiator with Skip's valve. The 3 or 4 lbs of pressure will reduce the hot spots where the coolant can vaporize. Tom
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| Old Henry | -- 08-03-2013 @ 8:10 PM |
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carson nv, I'm like you - want to keep it as original as I can but my radiator was shot. The compromise was to have my old radiator re-cored. It's still my original top and bottom tank with new core. Works better and looks the same as it did. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
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| Gail Rodda | -- 09-21-2013 @ 3:28 PM |
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I read most of the answrers I cooled a 1940 ford v8 by adjusting the timing faster move the timing screw on the dist. clear to the top of the slot. Also back flush means flush it backwards of the flow. Also with a flush gun with a air connection with 60# of air pressure with the thermostats out allow the block or radaitor to fill with water then hit the air. Also back flush the radaitor from the bottom. It would be better to have it rodded out. I allways run thermostats it slows the water down and allows the water to cool in the radaitor. I also allways run antifreeze it cools better than water. Gail Rodda
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| Gail Rodda | -- 09-21-2013 @ 3:29 PM |
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I read most of the answrers I cooled a 1940 ford v8 by adjusting the timing faster move the timing screw on the dist. clear to the top of the slot. Also back flush means flush it backwards of the flow. Also with a flush gun with a air connection with 60# of air pressure with the thermostats out allow the block or radaitor to fill with water then hit the air. Also back flush the radaitor from the bottom. It would be better to have it rodded out. I allways run thermostats it slows the water down and allows the water to cool in the radaitor. I also allways run antifreeze it cools better than water. Gail Rodda
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| Gail Rodda | -- 09-21-2013 @ 3:29 PM |
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I read most of the answrers I cooled a 1940 ford v8 by adjusting the timing faster move the timing screw on the dist. clear to the top of the slot. Also back flush means flush it backwards of the flow. Also with a flush gun with a air connection with 60# of air pressure with the thermostats out allow the block or radaitor to fill with water then hit the air. Also back flush the radaitor from the bottom. It would be better to have it rodded out. I allways run thermostats it slows the water down and allows the water to cool in the radaitor. I also allways run antifreeze it cools better than water. Gail Rodda
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| Gail Rodda | -- 09-21-2013 @ 3:30 PM |
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I read most of the answrers I cooled a 1940 ford v8 by adjusting the timing faster move the timing screw on the dist. clear to the top of the slot. Also back flush means flush it backwards of the flow. Also with a flush gun with a air connection with 60# of air pressure with the thermostats out allow the block or radaitor to fill with water then hit the air. Also back flush the radaitor from the bottom. It would be better to have it rodded out. I allways run thermostats it slows the water down and allows the water to cool in the radaitor. I also allways run antifreeze it cools better than water. Gail Rodda
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| Gail Rodda | -- 09-21-2013 @ 3:30 PM |
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I read most of the answrers I cooled a 1940 ford v8 by adjusting the timing faster move the timing screw on the dist. clear to the top of the slot. Also back flush means flush it backwards of the flow. Also with a flush gun with a air connection with 60# of air pressure with the thermostats out allow the block or radaitor to fill with water then hit the air. Also back flush the radaitor from the bottom. It would be better to have it rodded out. I allways run thermostats it slows the water down and allows the water to cool in the radaitor. I also allways run antifreeze it cools better than water. Gail Rodda
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| Gail Rodda | -- 09-21-2013 @ 3:30 PM |
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I read most of the answrers I cooled a 1940 ford v8 by adjusting the timing faster move the timing screw on the dist. clear to the top of the slot. Also back flush means flush it backwards of the flow. Also with a flush gun with a air connection with 60# of air pressure with the thermostats out allow the block or radaitor to fill with water then hit the air. Also back flush the radaitor from the bottom. It would be better to have it rodded out. I allways run thermostats it slows the water down and allows the water to cool in the radaitor. I also allways run antifreeze it cools better than water. Gail Gail Rodda
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