| ford38v8 | -- 01-14-2010 @ 7:50 PM |
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I'm glad you're glad! I was afraid you'd be mad at all the things I was able to see from your pictures. To answer your question, I'll say that it would probably take more to restore what you have today to original than it would to find an original in Show condition. In today's world, the cost of restoration is prohibitive if you are looking to get your money out of it in resale within say, 15 years or so. On the other hand, you could have a lot of fun tweaking it to your own style without the worry of destroying originality. If money is no object, and that's the case with many restorers, you have some homework to do to discover what is actually correct. An excellent start on that would be the purchase of the '37 Book from this website. It has been well researched over quite a few years, and is fresh off the presses. Yes, a '37 cabriolet is a scarce bird, but I wouldn't say rare. Your car however, is a one of a kind, and that's as rare as they get! So have fun with it, and be assured that it would certainly be welcome at an EFV8CA Concourse in our Display Class. Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-14-2010 @ 8:39 PM |
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Thanks Alan for your kind remarks.... I'm a novice and lack the foundation to bring this car back to classic. Were you joking about the car being a one of a kind? I do welcome your comments and I have no reason to be upset because I purchased the car without putting a dime to restore it. My intention was to re-sell it to someone that has the time and the money to restore back to classic or rod it. First base was to authenticate that it is indeed a 1937 710 Roadster. There were few made and even fewer surviving examples today.(Is there any way to know how many actually still exist in the U.S.?) Second base would be to determine a value so that it may be offered and sold at a price that would be inviting to someone who wants to get a project car like this in their garage. I havent really shown it to anyone because I havent had the time. I'm considering putting it in the Kruse Auction next weekend. I live in Miami so the auction will not be far away. What would be a good reserve estimate that you could recommend for this car from what you have seen? Thanks ahead for any advice you can give!
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-14-2010 @ 10:26 PM |
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Actually, I wasn't really joking about it being a one of a kind. Being that it has all those modifications, you'll never find another quite like it. Many Custom cars and Hot Rods are so identical in many ways, but I've never seen modern windows with vent wings on any Ford of the '30's. I don't want to lead you on and tell you it's worth a lot of money, though, and an auction is a crap shoot, so, who knows? you might make a few bucks on it. It's worth is in the eyes of the beholder, so I hope you get a lot of beholders and a couple of them to bid against each other. As for a reserve, you should try to break even on your investment. Be aware that auctions are not for novices, either buyers or sellers. I found that out the hard way myself some years back. Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 5:19 AM |
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Im under the impression that regardless of the modifications..... shouldnt the fact that its at least a bonified 1937 710 Roadster in pretty good body condition carry any weight? After all there are many individuals that call their 37 Ford a Roadster and what they in fact have is a fiberglass copy, a cabriolet, or a chopped/modified coupe. A fiberglass body costs around $18000.00 to obtain. This body style is a one year only model and probably one of the most fiberglass replicated models in the industry. So again my question is, what would be a fair price to ask for this car since it actually is a 1937 710 Roadster in the condition it is in right now. How much weight does having and actual 710 really carry since there are so many copycats that worship this body style at least in the hot rod industry? For example: some of these guys will sink in 100k on a fiberglass copy to make a one of a kind hot rod. And there is no limit on fiberglass bodies. On the other hand, if the same guy put his money in a car like mine, the same investment should be safer because he has a one of a kind that real and not a replica! What sayeth you? And do you feel qualified to shoot from the hip and give an answer? Again, I invite opinions of anyone else reading this, please dont worry about hurting my feelings.
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| Stroker | -- 01-15-2010 @ 7:12 AM |
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OK, I'll take the bait! I believe what you have is a $5000 Street Rod, nothing more or less. Just out of curiosity though, since you have graciously shown us the modified rear suspension, and automatic transmission selector, can we have a peek under the hood? Is it possible that this car was originally built by Ford of Argentina? It has clearly been "massaged" throughout its undoubtedly colorful life; if it could only "talk" I'm sure it would have an interesting tale to tell. Who knows, perhaps it once belonged to "El Maestro" Juan Manuel Fangio, who raced these early in his career.
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| trjford8 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 7:14 AM |
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Due to the vast number of modifications on your car the value of a 37 roadster has been substantially diminished. Not sure what you paid for the car, but buying a car like this is a gamble on your part and the part of a potential buyer. As was stated, auctions are a gamble. You may or may not find a buyer. You also need to know that most auctions charge the seller and the buyer. Some auctions are "no reserve", so once the bidding starts you are required to sell the car even if it is at a loss.
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| wmsteed | -- 01-15-2010 @ 9:07 AM |
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Someone has really worked overtime with the 37 to try and make it into something it is not. The recent pics reveal my first observation about the absence of Ford axle hubs was correct. The chassis has been modified to a street rod with auto trans, open drive line etc. If there is a thought to return the car to stock, I would advise against it. The cost to return the doors and side windows to stock framed windows would probably cost in excess of $3,000., and from there it would be mega bucks down the drain. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| wmsteed | -- 01-15-2010 @ 9:09 AM |
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Someone has really worked overtime with the 37 to try and make it into something it is not. The recent pics reveal my first observation about the absence of Ford axle hubs was correct. The chassis has been modified to a street rod with auto trans, open drive line etc. If there is a thought to return the car to stock, I would advise against it. The cost to return the doors and side windows to stock framed windows would probably cost in excess of $3,000., and from there it would be mega bucks down the drain. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 10:38 AM |
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Stroker, The car has a body serial number in sync with U.S. produced models. It also shows on the Colombian documents the origin is the U.S. and the ID plate number stamping is consistent with Ford Motor practices in the U.S. Attached is a picture under the hood...
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 10:44 AM |
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trjford, Again I feel everyones missing the point....there are hardly any examples of 710 Roadsters in ANY condition so even a poor condition 710 should command a higher dollar than a cabriolet and it should definitly command a higher dollar than a fiberglass body. The auction is close to where I live and I would definitly put a reserve amount on it.....Thats why Im asking around to find out what that might be.... $5000.00 is out of the question.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 10:50 AM |
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Wrmsteed, Does the fact that it is already a real 710 roadster body have any bearing to justify such an investment when there is a huge following that worship replica 710 roadsters for hot rods? After all how many real 710 roadsters have been rodded out?
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 11:00 AM |
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Gentlemen, I applaud the imput, but does everyone here really think a Good condition 1937 Ford 710 Roadster does not merit the financial attention to bring it to its original splendor or turn it into a one of a kind hot rod? I would like to know how many here even know where to get a real project 710 Roadster like this one or anyone for that matter? And does anyone know the cheapest price they can buy one restored to original or the cheapest price for a real 710 Roadster hot rod? would be great to get some answers! respectfully submitted, Dan
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 11:14 AM |
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Stroker was the brave one with the dollar value estimate, and I applaud him for his opening the door and his right on estimate. There is a term we use to describe a car like yours, blunt but honest: What you have a Rat Rod. The originality has been so destroyed that it's future is more valuable a a donor car than for anything else. Unfortunately, it has already been a donor car at some point in it's past, so the $5000 estimate of value is, in my opinion, valid and accurate. Alan
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| Stroker | -- 01-15-2010 @ 11:39 AM |
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Dan: If you were to remove that portion of the body that is unique to a 37 roadster, (cowl-back), and have it Redi-Stripped, depending upon how much original undamaged metal is left (not including the doors) what value would it have? The reason I say this, is that appears to be the only "rare" item involved, that hasn't been visibly altered. I hope you find a buyer, and I hope the buyer acquires it for what it is, and not as an investment. All: I'm thinking Buick V8, given the intake and dist. location, Any thoughts?
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 11:45 AM |
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As a fiberglass body this style gets $18000.00 unfinished. I really dont see how you can say a real 710, even bieng a Rat Rod is worth only $5000.00. I have seen people get $15000.00 for a crapped out non-running cabriolet.....Thanks for your opinion though!
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 11:48 AM |
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Stroker, Good Call! I think it is a buick.....my cousin thought it was a fireball 66 but its not. I think its a 6 cylinder though....
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| Stroker | -- 01-15-2010 @ 1:18 PM |
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Dan: If the wires coming out of the distributer are evenly spaced, then I'd guess it is a 231 inch, (3.8 liter) "even-fire" Buick, If they are not, then it would be the earlier, "odd-fire". In either case, they are tough little engines, and it should be a fun "driver". I was kind of hoping for your sake, that the engine bay would reveal a nice Ardun-Ford, at which point I would seriously re-think my estimate of value. That would be a whole new ball game, and perhaps evolve into the longest thread ever published in the "New Forum".
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 2:47 PM |
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Stroker, No such luck.... Right now you guys have me convinced its not worth going in the direction to restore this car back to classic. And I know for sure no big money hot rodder is going to care about the cars present condition or engine cause ya know their gonna gut it and do it up the way they like. Basically, I have to hang my hat on the fact that the car is a 710 Ford 1937 Roadster and hope there exists someone that fancies the appeal of Real Steel 710. I wish I could do it myself but over here in the U.S. things are more expensive. Back in Colombia I could have had my guys take the off the chassis,strip the paint down to the steel and done the paint,body and interior for much less. My cousin in San Diego told me to send the car the way it was to sell to someone else so that they make the the decision to make it classic or a rod. I'm not entirely convinced about the $5000.00 though because I have a few offers for over $20,000. The auction told me to put a reserve of $30,000.
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| Stroker | -- 01-15-2010 @ 3:49 PM |
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Dan: It's a big world out there. When you posted your question on this forum, you subjected yourself to the most knowledgeable group of early Ford "preservationists" on the planet. As such, the group (including myself) was harsh, but I believe honest. There is no way I can predict the whims of potential buyers. Conceivably, there could be someone out there in E-Bay land that has always wanted a red & white 710 with roll-up windows and doesn't give a rat's ass about the power-train, tail lights, or hood latches. It is entirely possible that there is someone out there that wants to build a high dollar street rod, but can't get past the idea of a "plastic body". It is also possible that there is someone out there that is in the process of building an absolutely "correct" 710, but lacks some critical metal parts you may have. I'm sure there are some of our EV8 members outside the US that would be very interested in the KPH instrument cluster. I'm not sure a local auction is the way to go. If it were mine, I'd try to expose it to as many people with varied interests as possible, such as E-Bay, Craig's List, Ford Barn, etc. Despite our negative comments, I believe collectively we have tried to present as honest an "assessment" as we can FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, which is as "preservationists". I think though, you owe us a favor, and that is to let us know sometime what the final disposition of this truly "interesting" EV8 is. Good Luck, and keep us informed, it has been a very interesting debate.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 7:57 PM |
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Stroker, I am a architecture historical preservationist myself and a purist. From the Federal perspective of the Secretary of the Interior, we must always try to use the existing original material before we turn to replicated building components. I respect your opinions , however I would have a problem showing a plastic bodied car as a classic or even a rod. No disrespect to any of you that have a fiberglass shop , If I had a choice I would feel safer in investing something that was real when it was first created. This economy has dropped the values of fiberglass bodied investments for the simple fact there are so many and for a price they can be had. Thats why I make my case for the investment justification once one is certain that indeed they have a 1937 model 710 roadster. Its just simple supply and demand.... I have a hard time understanding how such a celebrated model so replicated in the field cant seem to garnish the respect of just actually still existing regardless of some modifications or condition that can be re-done with the right budget....nothing here is etched in stone. Nobody has answered my very simple questions regarding simple supply and demand...... where can I buy a real 1937 710 roadster as a project car? Because if I were to spend 100k-150k for a perfect car it better be real and not a fake. I thank you for your opinion and I respect your knowledge and I absolutly will let you know what happens...
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 8:51 PM |
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Dan, There is no dealership you can go to and find the very car you have always wanted. Ask any one of us how much effort, time, and money it took to find the cars we have. It's a matter of keeping abreast of the offerings from all sources. Some, admittedly have literally stumbled onto a find, or inherited a collector car. Few of us have been able to set our hearts on a certain model and then go out and find one. To one who considers a collector car as an investment, you've already lost bigtime when you lay down your cash. This is a hobby, and the investment for us is the time we spend with our cars, not the money spent on them. We lovingly work on our own cars, we don't relegate our labor of love to others. And we don't buy and sell hoping to make a profit, we buy and sell to make room for another car. On a related subject, when we are out in the public with our cars, the last question we want to hear is always the first: "How much is that car worth?" We don't measure the worth of our cars in dollars, so we ignore those extremely rude questions, hoping the inquisitor will just go away. The original subject of this thread having been long ago answered, its subject matter has morphed into a whole new direction in which I for one am uncomfortable discussing. I wish you well in your endeavors, but our Forum is not really intended to advise investors, but to help with questions as you initially posed. Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-15-2010 @ 9:33 PM |
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Alan, I thank you for your gentle explanation and everyones patience with me. I totally understand now. Please forgive my ingnorance. I didnt mean to sound like I was just after money..... For your info: I posted the car on E-bay and everyone said it was not a 710 until I discovered the ID plate. I was hind and quartered for declaring what it really was! I am very happy to have met your aquaintance... This message was edited by efv8 on 1-23-10 @ 9:28 AM
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 01-16-2010 @ 6:57 AM |
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my 2 cent worth,MY 37 760-A CABRIOLET PICTURE ENCLOSED STEEL is REAL,!!! they can build a plastic car everyday, so the value as part of history is not there, plastic is the fun part of building a car, just do not invest a lot of money thinking you are going to make more money,I am sure there are people out there that do not care and just want a cool ride,, But I would invest my money in the real thing,!!! if you bought that 37 710 at the right price, you could restore it and when in time you will most likley get you money back, WHAT'S SAD is that every day another old car is made into a street rod and then in a short time is advertised FOR SALE, and I am not just talking FORDS, but I guess you take your money and buy what you want, your 37 710 ,,it needs a lot,its not beyond restoring, I would drive it as is and enjoy and restore it as time goes by, it is still a nice car, but every day the older cars go up and things will get better in this world,s things are getting better every day,and prices will rise, this is just my 2 cents worth, 37RAGTOPMAN
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| TomO | -- 01-16-2010 @ 8:16 AM |
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I would guess that the car would bring more at a Good Guys meet than at a Kruse Auction. Also Kruse has had some financial difficulties lately and there have been reports that sellers have had to wait long times for their funds. Tom
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| wmsteed | -- 01-16-2010 @ 10:37 AM |
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It is very obvious that "arguelles67" is trying to "preach to the choir" in his attempt to establish that his car is something it is not. I think all of us could pretty much agree that the car in question is more of a "Johny Cash" type car. It is very true that if the car was in fact a '37 Ford 710 Roadster or a 760-A/B cabroilet that had been street rodded to a high dergree, it could have greater value that a restored 710/760. I know of one '37 cab, designed by Chip Foose, and built by his father Sam, that is an all steel car that was the top street rod in the US for over two years. When my friend sold the car he got over $80,000. for the car, he had over $175,000 in it. The car was correct in all aspects except for a 2" chop, slight bits of surgery here and there, modern suspension/power train, AC, cruise, & PW, etc.. The car in question is none of the above... The person (s) that built it had a plan, just what that plan was adds to the mystery? Why keep and/or use a '37 style KPH odometer, then add all new gauges in the center of the dash? Why add modern roll up windows and later style vent windows?.... of course the answer is because the doors are convertible. Is the body tag real, or make believe? Briggs and Stratton never made bodies for Ford. Is "Strokes" value ($5000.) estimate correct? Maybe, maybe not.... The only true way to establish a value, is to put the car up for sale.... The market will establish the cars true value. The one thing you can say about this topic, is that it sure generated a lot of input to the forum. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| roadster36 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 11:00 AM |
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It didn't sell when it was on E-Bay many months ago. There was a reason for it. I saw the car and watched the auction. Caveat Emptor.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 11:21 AM |
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37RAGTOPMAN, I didnt know that was your car! its very very nice! I agree with you about the sadness of cars going to the rod shop instead of being restored classic. At this point I just would like to get it into the right hands so that this ride may have a chance at being restored back to classic. The way it is is very fun to ride and gets alot of looks. I appretiate your words of encouragement , I really gathered from this forum that it was a lost cause... Thanks!
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 11:26 AM |
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Tom, Thanks! this is good info,I would hate my first auction experience to end up waiting for the money cause that would defeat my purpose. I already have couple of good guys interested, unfortunatly they want to hot rod it......
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 11:53 AM |
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Bill, I picked up the car in Colombia, South America.... As you said the former owners reasons for the car design remain a mystery. There is no reason for the former owner to pretend it was a 710 when he butchered the dash and added the roll up windows. I believe the former owner lacked the direction and wanted to rod the car because that way there exists no right way or wrong way and its up to his own COLOMBIAN taste. The owner was happy with having just a cabriolet 37 body style. I purchased the car thinking it was a cabriolet 760/A myself. It wasnt until I contacted EFV8 and was given the number of a 38 specialist named Gary Mallast 1-586-468-8011 and he told me where to look for the model number and where the remnant holes from where the wind wings were formerly attached on the A frame. I confirmed all this with him via internet with pictures. He assured me that the metal plate is delicate and is difficult if not impossible to tamper with. He says there is a very fine line between a cabriolet and an actual 710 model for 1937 and its even difficult to the most informed individuals. When I told him about it and before he viewed the pictures he asked if I found it in a swamp or pieced it together........ I did not. But the fact is unless my credibility is questioned here, I purchased it as a cabriolet as well and I had to look for serial numbers and so on to get a title in California. It wasnt until i tried to identify the actual body style that I found out it was a real 710. In Colombia they fake all kinds of stuff but I was not duped into buying it as a 710. The price I paid was consistent with other convertible classic US models. The difference here is: i have all documentation when the car actually arrived to Colombia until i shipped it back to the US. The plate is called a BRIGGS AND STRATTON ID PLATE... if you like you can talk to Gary Mallast yourself and he can explain. I dont mind ridicule because i did ask for feedback but not everyone knows everything and this FORUM is good to learn new stuff.... Ive definitly been given an education here!
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 11:58 AM |
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Roadster36, My friend Jorge tried to help me out and put it on E-Bay. He is more experienced with car selling than I am and he really comes off as a used car salesman. he reports to me that he recieved great ridicule because nobody believed it was a 710 Roadster until we verified the ID plate. Then everyone shut up. The crowd at large there are a bunch of fiberglass huggers that dont know crap apparently. I recieved a plethora of information and alot more respect here on this FORUM. Ebay is probably the worst place to show your car! He apparently makes a living on it...
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 01-16-2010 @ 12:29 PM |
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hi there are a lot of CRITICS on E-BAY. and boy a lot more experts, been there done that,,,, if you list it on there, just be honest and tell it like it is, and show a lot of pictures,says its not a 100% correct, but has much potential. and welcome them to come and look for themselves, this way there wll be no complaining, this would be a great car for someone with a good 1937 chassis and rusty sedan or such body, on my 1937 FORD CABRIOLET, I never saw a body plate with a number on my car and been the care taker since 1975,I think that number tag was added,but that is just my opinion., I restored this car,and a good friend painted it, with me helping,I did all the body work,this was about 1977-78 ALSO the SPEEDOMETER is a EXPORT PART,not for the USA, MARKET, are there any traces that it might have been RIGHT HAND DRIVE ? just my 2 cents 37RAGTOPMAN
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| Stroker | -- 01-16-2010 @ 1:32 PM |
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Dan: I believe that Gary's reference to your body plate was probably "Briggs" body plate. Briggs Body Company, along with Murry and others produced bodies for Ford. Briggs & Stratton, in Milwaukee made keys: (BASCO)for about everyone including GM., some Ford starters. I don't know who produced the 710 body for your 37, but Gary's reference to your body plate design may indicate that it was Briggs Body Co. in Detroit. All: Other than the obvious roll-up windows, thus different doors, and A-pillar mounted wind-wings, and of course the Body Plate Number,what differences are there between a 37 Cabriolet and a Roadster?
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| tbloss | -- 01-16-2010 @ 1:38 PM |
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I know everyone is ready to end this, but a 37 Roadster was listed, with a picture in the classified section on this forum yesterday. Take a look...Tom..
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 1:54 PM |
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Stroker, The '36 was the last true roadster, having the windshield frame as a bolt-on rather than as an integral part of the cowl as the '37 is. This is the last of the roadsters for Ford. Other than the roll up windows, there is no difference between the roadster and the cabriolet. (710 and 760A) There was an accessory wind deflector available that looked like a vent window, but never was a real vent window on Fords until 1940. The Cabriolet had rubber along the top and down both sides to mate with the rustless steel side window frames. The Roadster had no such rubber, as the mating surface was of top material, with plastic window inserts. These windows were removable to stow in a special pouch, which showed a clean unbroken top surface of the doors, but for the mounting holes and push fasteners for the windows as the top itself had to the body. Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 2:50 PM |
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37RAGTOPMAN, There is no evidence of a right hand drive, thats for sure...... Ebay is too friggin complicated for me and after all the time my friend wasted trying to convince people that it was a Roadster 710 I doubt he would give it another try. Its nice to be objective and learn without the insults. That was the main problem, alot of people talking about a very little known grey area in 37 ford models.
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| Stroker | -- 01-16-2010 @ 2:53 PM |
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Alan et al: So, as I get it, other than the body plate, about the only significant way to tell a Cabrolet from a Roadster in 37 is the doors. Unfortunately for Dan, the doors have been replaced. I guess this would lead me to the original question in this overworked thread. If I had a 38 Ford Wagon (which of course I do), but it was missing the rear floor pan, rear fenders front seat,and all of the wood, but still had the proper cowl and body plate; do I have anything that would be more desirable than any other 38 open car chassis? I suspect that would be a very hard sell for me. Like you, I always considered the "last" roadster to be a 36, but obviously there were 37's. Whoever might therefore acquire the subject car , MUST-find a pair of 37 roadster doors), and THAT could be a problem!
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 3:13 PM |
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Stroker, My bad, you may be right about the Briggs and they did do the body and I believe its the same Briggs of small engine fame. Other than that, Gary was not able to come up with any other differences. The positive ID is that plate. In my research I have seen similar plates on the 760A models that otherwise identified themselves conveniently as 37 Roadster models, thats what got me thinking..... The way the numerals are stamped in the ID plate kind of throw you off at first glance if you dont know what youre looking at. The #1 is actually a capital letter "i". The records indicate that Briggs changed their dies so as to make the falsification of Ford parts difficult and they replaced ther numeral "1" with a capital letter "i". The ID body plate and the serial number on the car are consistent with a the Ford production model 710. The existence of where the Wind Wings were fastened to the A frame also back up the authenticity of the car. The differences are so slight on the 37 cabriolet 760/A and the 710 model that it doesnt surprise me how nobody really knows for sure!
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 3:14 PM |
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Tom, Thanks I will check it out... Dan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 3:21 PM |
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Alan, From the purist sense of the word, Ford's last year for the Roadster WAS "37" although your definition of what "TRUE" means may alter that perception. Ford was offering the 710 Roadster in their catalogues and it was the last year they did so. Just because Ford modified their design in that year doesnt obscure the fact that they were still actively engaged in the selling of a new design roadster that also happened to be the end of the roadster line as well as that one year only body style which in my limited education on EFV8's means thats pretty darn significant. Again my opinion, I welcome comment.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 3:24 PM |
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Stroker, How can you tell these are not the original doors? Forgive my asking a stupid question....
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| Stroker | -- 01-16-2010 @ 3:35 PM |
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So...what it all boils down to is a body plate. Brigg's Body Company had no relationship to the Wisconsin builder of small engines, keys, Ford starter drives. Brigg's Body built lots of bodies for many different manufacturers, and along with Murry, was a major Ford supplier in the 30's. I don't know whether there is a big market for body plates. At any rate, I believe we have beaten this subject to death. We are all people who love early Fords, and love to exchange helpful hints. As Alan has earlier eluded to; we are not an appraisal service, and quite frankly we would much prefer to share ideas and ways of saving money on our beloved Fords/Mercury's/Zephyrs and trucks, as to engage in questions of "market value". Most of us have a particular "soft spot" for a particular car. I was within 15 minutes of being born in mine, and my beloved wife would like me to be buried in it.
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 5:04 PM |
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Dan, It was me who stated that the doors were replaced. Your doors have a different frame and latch, and a different internal mechanism as told by the pushbutton exterior handle. Your doorskin has been roughed in at the bottom rather than the smooth curve found on the original. It looks like the only original part left is the exterior contour frame and the top of the door to show the beltline. An ingenious idea, but not finished out. Alan
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| wmsteed | -- 01-16-2010 @ 5:17 PM |
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Ok I'll take the bait again.... The term "roadster" means no roll-up windows... Super spelled this out early on. I will expand the statement a little further: Side curtains, e.g. made from canvas with plastic sheeting for visibility, in lieu of mechanically operated fixed windows that roll down into the doors. Briggs Mfg. Co was a major supplier of bodies, trim and upholstery for Ford, Chrysler, Hudson and Packard through the 1920's/30's. The company was purchased by Chrysler in 1952. (www.coachbuilt.com) Briggs built most of the open car bodies for Chrysler and Ford through 1939/40. The bodies were originally identified with a tag reading: Model Body No 123 1234 Briggs Mfg. Company The VIN was consistent with the policy of the specific manufacturer.... Ford on the left front frame rail, Chrysler on the right cowl door jamb. All of the EFV8 people know that Fords VIN's means nothing, other than 18 means V8. This being the case, the claim "arguelles" has made about his VIN being consistent with the indentification used by Ford for a model 710/760 is not valid. It is also an established fact that Ford only put body tags on bodies that were out sourced in lieu of being built in house. I am not sure as to why, but a vast majority of the open bodied cars from the 1930 era are missing their body tags....this is true of the ChryCo cars as well. I have two additional points about the body in question: Generally speaking, open cars built by Briggs from 1937 on have the windshield wipers mounted on the cowl. Why are they mounted on the header on the car in question? Open cars generally have a "well" for the top to fold into... The '37 in "Ragtops" pic has a well. However, a close look at the top stacked up in the pics supplied by "arguelle", shows that the top is sitting on top of a white body panel. Could it be that the car in question started life as a coupe? There are several items I find disturbing about "arguelles" posting to the topic. Maybe I missed something...The original posting stated that the previous owner modified the doors to roll up windows. Now the question is asked why can't a roadster have rollup windows. The original posting shows a car with Australian plates, now the car is reputedly from Columbia??? Hmmmmmmmmm? Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 5:50 PM |
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Stroker There might not be such a market for body plates but its the only real hard link to prove the car started life as the iconic "37" 710 Roadster and there is proof there is a market for 37 Roadsters. I feel somewhat consoled by the fact at least one other person here in this Forum believes the car should be given a chance at being turned back into a classic and that the idea should not be totally discarded. I have stepped away from the idea of trying to assign value since you and others here might be offended by such talk as intimated earlier so i have reffered to the models historical significance since it is a one year body style and the last year (factually)that the Roadster was produced by Ford. I would also like to comment that since the car was brought new to Colombia in 1937 one does not need to look far to find out Colombia in 1937 primarily used horses and donkeys also still in use today. Who ever had this car had to have some serious money and I dont put it past that maybe the car had modifications by Ford as a special order? Example: I found a short wheel base 1959 2door Apache Truck with an extended cab. This was one of 15 brought to Colombia specially made by Chevrolet to work the railroad lines and still has the rear wheel rail line adaptation. Nobody really could tell me about this either so i beat my head up against the wall until I found out for sure what it was. My point being that there may be more here than meets the eye and its nice to keep an open mind!
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 5:55 PM |
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Alan, Is it possible the doors are original and were adapted for the roll up. I look at the door skin on the outside and it looks the same. I might be dreaming but I swear it looks like someone cut the original doors and added the modification.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 6:14 PM |
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wmsteed, As I have been informed by experts the 710 falls between the numerical prefix (183) and (184) of the first 3 numbers of the serial number. According to Gary Mallast , Ford was very inconsistent. On the body tag the first three numbers indicate that it is a 710 and the next sequence of numbers only made sense to Briggs and nobody else. This information I believe is somewhat lost. I cant answer about the wipers but I can tell you that if some cars dont even have their body plates intact then a car that does should be a nice find. I have had the oportunity to compare a couple of body plates I saw on e-bay and they were consistent with the one thats on my car. Its a miracle because I would have expected some Colombian guy to chuck this as well! To staighten the record with you BILL I never ever said the car was Austrailian. This car came from the US to Colombia and then I repatriated it back to the US. And if I havent mentioned enough the serial numbers are consistent with US production models and not any other. I know that the serial number here doesnt mean very much but that only means I can stick another correct flat head in it and not have to worry so much about somebody beating me up so bad because i dont have a "NUMBERS MATCHING CAR". I have nothing to hide and Im not going to fake a friggin plate.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 6:19 PM |
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wmsteed, By the way my source on the 1937 710 being produces between prefix 183 and 184 of the serial number was the Horseless Carriage Foundation and the Classic Car Data Base
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 6:32 PM |
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tbloss, gee thanks for the info! Im gonna see if I can get some pics of the ID plate!
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| trjford8 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 6:36 PM |
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arguelles67, you might want to purchase the V-8 Club's book on the 37 Ford.It will give you a lot of facts on that particular year and help you determine what is correct and what is not correct. The real deal 37 roadster listed in the classifieds of this site is listed for sale at $35,000.It needs a total restoration, but there are no modifications to repair. Perhaps this will give you an idea of value.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 6:44 PM |
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trjford8, I think Im going to take your advice, after all this , a book on 37 Fords is appropriate! I did see the car in the classifieds and I will investigate if it does indeed have a body ID plate. The price seems to be consistent with any open body 37 in that condition but we really dont know yet if it is really a 710 or if its someone who is calling it a Roadster.
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| BrianCT | -- 01-16-2010 @ 6:55 PM |
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There are 1 million serial numbers between the 183 and 184 that you speak of.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 7:17 PM |
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BrianCT, If you go to the website of the CLASSIC CAR DATA BASE and look up the 1937 Ford Roadster, it says that the vin/serial number should fall between 18-3331857 to 18-4186446. Mine is 18362xxxx and My Briggs Body Id plate indicates 710 for the Roadster model. Thanks for asking!
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-16-2010 @ 10:42 PM |
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Dan, you seem to say that there exists one or two organizations that possess more expertise on the Ford Flathead era than the EFV8CA does. There are none. We are a Marque Club, representing the Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury from 1932 till 1953. It's not that we know everything there is to know about them, but no club knows more than we do on the cars we represent. The serial number that you have is one among 854,589 other 1937 85 hp Fords built between October 1936 and June 1937. The number is numeric, and represents all the 85 hp Fords of all body styles, not just the Roadsters. Your Ford was built in February, 1937. There were 1032 Roadsters built with an 85 hp engine. An additional 35 were built with a 60 hp engine. Your experts were only telling you that yes, you do have a 1937 Ford. Regarding the Briggs body plate, there is not a consistent record of the plates having been used on all Briggs bodies. The plates have no relation to the Ford serial number, and were themselves a numeric count of bodies manufactured. The 710 on your plate identifies the body model. The poor condition of your plate would cost the same in points as would the unfilled holes of a missing plate, demonstrating the lack of importance of the plate itself. Yes, as has been stated earlier, your doors have been extensively modified. Look at the weld joints in the area of the door latch to show the replacement of the modern latch in the removed section of original door. Look at the bottom of the door skin to see the ragged edge of the replacement skin. Look at the workmanship throughout the car at those points of modification and judge for yourself the extent of damage done to the car in its low quality resurrection. Now consider again the possibility that this was the work of The Ford Motor Company or of any professional Coach builder of any era. Sorry, the car may well have belonged to a plantation owner, but there has never been any "professional" modification to it. Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-17-2010 @ 5:42 AM |
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Alan, Yes I trust in your expertise and I never meant to insinuate there was another group of experts that know more. At least we know that this model was manufactured in the U.S. and it was a Model 710. Regardless of the condition of the doors and body tag ID plate at least it still has the body tag because it apparently is normal for some open bodied cars not to have them according to this FORUM. THE june Street Rodded magazine has an article on a black 1937 Ford Roadster . It states that they stopped making roadster in 1937 and less than 1250 were produced and les than a dozen genuine 37 ford roadsters exist on US registration rolls. The guy that won the AMBR about 15 years ago with a red roadster claimed that his was one of only twelve genuine roadsters left. Maybe this can be disputed? but maybe that amount is really whats in registration because it ties up with what JUNKYARD has quoted. FOR ALL: You can check out what an original body plate looks like with some very nice photos of a black /red interior 36 Ford offered on e-bay serial# 18-3310297 and body id plate # 740-4240 and you dont have to go very far to compare what I guess is a show winning Beige color 36 Ford on the same e-bay page with an example of a really fake body plate! that actually says BODY NUMBER and beneath it # 68-18.2411184 which is also the serial number of the car??? Im gonna have to say this looks friggin bogus because the numbers look hand stamped and they are not even straight! The former body plate looks just like the one on my car. Attached is a close up of the tail light for those curious....
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-17-2010 @ 5:53 AM |
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Alan, Again you stress the non-importance of the body plate in general. But the fact her is that its the only other physical link to establish that my car is an authentic 710 roadster body for lack of the windowless doors as evidence. I might add that the other individual selling his 37 Roadster in the classified section of this website says he has a body plate on his too. He says it has been painted over.
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| wmsteed | -- 01-17-2010 @ 11:51 AM |
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It appears to me that "arguelles" is very intent in his efforts to turn things around so that statements, etc. can be used in his favor. As I have said earlier, "I think he is preaching to the choir". Alan's 1-16 comments pretty well sum up the basic problems with the car in question. On the data plate issue.... It is very unfortunate for the EFV8 people that Ford did not do a better job of documenting their vehicles. Chrysler Motors was very detailed in record keeping for their vehicles. It is a well known fact that Briggs built bodies for Chrysler and Ford. The Chrysler bodies can be tracked through Chrysler Historical. Briggs used the same numbering system tag for all the bodies they built. There is no mention made on these tags as to what the specific car manufacture might be. The model # appears first, then the numerical body number. Chrysler used the same basic body sh*ll on all of their convertibles from 1935 on, so the body numbers jump around from Chrysler, Dodge, Desoto and Plymouth. I have a '39 Plym conv cpe, model 104 body 1973, there were 5,100+ Plym conv's made in 1939. My car was built January 28, 1939, shipped to a dealer in San Francisco on the 29th, delivered to the original owner on Feb.1. All of the preceding info along with a copy of the original build sheet was supplied to me by Chrysler Historical for a fee of $40.00, a tracing of the VIN and proof of ownership. So what does the preceding have to with the car in question? Very simple... Detailed documentation is all important when it comes to establishing the true potential value of antique/classic vehicles, or for that matter any antique. I know of two guys that have built '36 Ford conv's out of coupe bodies, in both cases they used the upper half of conv bodies. In both cases the cars were sold in a few years. In all probability the origin of the cars went by the wayside after they changed hands. I also know of a '32 Plym conv coupe which was sold for a lot of money by a fellow that had owned it for a long time. When the new owner contacted Chrysler Historical for the build sheet he found out he had a coupe. Upon contacting the Plym Owners Club, they also informed him the car was a coupe not a convertible. The purchaser sued the seller, getting his money plus back. The seller did not deny he had altered the body into a conv., he offered the excuse that he wanted a conv cpe and could not find a good one to purchase, so he made his own using mostly original conv parts. His crime was that he neglected to inform the purchaser. It just could be that the answer to "arguelles" problem is to just call the vehicle in question: "'37 FORD OPEN CAR", HIGHLY MODIFIED, ORIGINALLY BUILT FOR USE IN SOUTH AMERICA. The above description makes no claim to be something the vehicle is or is not. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-17-2010 @ 12:19 PM |
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wmsteed, I feel that after so many out there simply qualify the authenticity of their 37 Roadster by the windowless door requirement whether they are chopped coupes or modified cabriolets not to mention flooding the market with fiberglass replicas, I do believe there is more than enough credence hanging on the very fine hair of identification through a genuine BRIGGS ID BODY TAG be it as it may with whatever modifications. The car is a 1937 Ford 710 Roadster plain and simple. If it does not meet the refined standards of this FORUM, You should agree to the credibility behind someone breathing new life regardless of evaluating budget constraints. If its true there exist as few as has been documented then I believe there exists enough incentive for somebody to come and make it right if money is not an issue. At this moment looks like it has a better chance as a rod. Its possible body tags may have been a requirement for export models because Customs does have a few identification procedures going on all the time along with paperwork. Stroker kind of beat me over the head with the doors and all and I will accept that. But to keep on suggesting the car is chopped or a modified cabriolet is really not fair because I have already said I have documentation when it arrived to Colombia in 1937 and that its origin was the U.S. The serial number is from the U.S. as well. Bill, I really appretiate everyones honesty and directness here because I have learned much. But im gonna ask you real nice like to stop trying to discredit me like I have some hidden agenda. I have been honest.
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| Stroker | -- 01-17-2010 @ 1:11 PM |
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Dan: After wading through all of this, I personally am convinced that you have, lurking under 73 years of modifications, a 1937 Model 710 firewall (with Briggs ID plate), body sh*ll, rumble seat, and most likely some door parts. I am also convinced that you have the original frame, which needs to have some spring hangers ground off, and more than likely some cross-members replaced. Many of us have been working on trying to "refine" our Fords through the years, sometimes with positive results, and in some cases, regrettable consequences. I am guilty of removing and disposing of chrome ornamentation in the 1950's, in a then popular effort to "clean-up" the original appearance of a 32 Ford grille sh*ll (horror of horrors). Many of us know first-hand the challenge facing whoever might attempt to salvage the aforementioned parts, and attempt to assemble a complete, pristine 37 roadster out of them. Some of us could do it, if we lived long enough. Given the fact that a much less maddening example of a starting point can be had for less than 40K, it just doesn't make sense to even consider restoration. Time is money, parts are expensive. Most of us strongly adhere to the axiom that a restorer should start with the best example available, as it will be the cheapest in the long run. It was with the above assessment of your usable parts inventory that I threw out the $5,000 figure, given my estimation of the excessive time money and effort required to bring what is left back to original. In other words, it just wouldn't be worth it for any knowledgeable restorer to consider. Thus, the only other option would be to sell it as an early example of a Street Rod. My estimate still stands.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-17-2010 @ 3:30 PM |
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Stroker, Well I feel pretty satisfied we covered all the angles. May I ask you to look at the steering wheel to see if you could determine if it is original to the car. It says deluxe. My friend told me it was probably salvaged from another car and that it wasnt from this one..... I just would like to know for sure. Thanks, Dan
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| wmsteed | -- 01-17-2010 @ 8:37 PM |
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I don't profess to know why people remove body ID and/or VIN plates from cars. I have always found it to be unlikely that the fasteners come loose and the plate falls off. It is very likely that people start out to restore a vehicle, they remove the data plate (s) to prep for repainting and then misplace the plates, they did not intend to loose the plate, it just happened. I have bought and sold a lot of vehicles, most of them vintage vehicles during the past twenty years. I have become very leery about buying vehicles that don't have correct ID plates in the locations they are supposed to be. I purchased an original unrestored 1920 Ford Model T roadster on Friday... A barn find from Montana. One of the conditions of sale, was that the VIN on the vehicle matched the numbers on the old Montana title. The number on the engine was actually for a 1926, however the number matched the title. No mystery there, at some point in time the engine had been changed to a later better engine, and the paper work corrected accordingly. I have found motor vehicles from South America to be a very interesting subject. Some southern countries had GM, Ford and Chrysler plants, some did not. Some vehicles were shipped to SA in a "knocked down" state, to be assembled in SA, some were shipped as complete vehicles. I have a book about light duty trucks built in SA. Brazil and Argentenia had GM and Ford plants. The '57 through late '70 pickups were mostly based on the '57-60 cab design with some very unusual differences from there US cousins. A club and crew cab was a standard offering. Twin I beam suspension was offered from '65 on by Ford SA, however information in the book indicates they skipped the '61-66, 67-70 and '71-73 body design. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 4:26 AM |
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wmsteed, Well stoker I believe had said earlier that "most open bodied cars" dont have body tags and I believed what he meant to say was that Ford sometimes never placed them on the vehicles body and were inconsistent. He also said the condition of my 710 body tag was not in great condition. Well then again Im prompted to ask the same question! IS A BODY TAG WORTH ANYTHING ON A CAR THAT CAN ONLY BE POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED BY IT!? OR NOT? IS A BODY TAG IN MEDIOCRE CONDITION WORTH ANYTHING ON A OPEN BODY CAR WERE OTHER TAGS ARE LACKING ON OTHER OPEN MODEL CARS JUSTIFIBLY BY FORD'S OWN LACK OF CONSISTENCY? DOES THE FACT THAT FORD ALSO HAS SUFFERED AT THE HANDS OF BOOTLEGGERS MAKING SPARE PARTS FOR FORD PARTE MARKET ILLEGALLY HAVE ANY BEARING ON THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE CARS OR HAS THIS TOO BEEN PLACED BY THE WAYSIDE IN TIME? Bill the reason I keep adding to this thread is simply because there seems to be inconsistency with the consensus of the validity of the body tag. Naturally to me , the body tag is important because again I strees its the only positive way how to identify my model 710 1937 Ford Roadster. I'm going to start another discussion on a white 36 three window coupe since you guys dont get turned on with real roadsters when they hit you in the face. And Ill start a discussion with the extended cab apache if its ok?
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| wmsteed | -- 01-18-2010 @ 9:27 AM |
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From my prospective, and the law enforcement agents that document vehicles prior to issuing new ownership and/or registration on a vehicle that is transferred from state to state, or country to country, the correct data plates are all important. Ford up through 1948 was one of the few manufactures that did not use a "plate" with the VIN attached to the frame or body. It has been well documented that Ford did not use body tags, with model and body numbers on any of the bodies that Ford built in house, however, regardless of the body style, all out sourced bodies, convertibles, coupes, etc. originally had body tags so the body builder, Briggs, Murray, etc. and Ford, could keep track of the bodies. Do other people attach the credence to proper ID that I do? I would say that the average vehicle purchaser does not, until he has purchased the vehicle, spent a suit case full of money rebuilding/restoring the vehicle, only to find out that his '36 Something needs to meet current smog/safety requirements because of the '95 V8 engine and no valid VIN numbers on the chassis, engine and/or body. Aside from everything that has been written on this topic.... it would appear we have provided some interesting reading and contributions to 941 viewers and 76 contributors.... Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 1:50 PM |
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Dan, With apologies again for any hurt feelings, I'll answer your question regarding the relevance of your body plate: No, it has no relevance whatsoever, due mainly to the extreme condition of your car. What it started out as is not the point here, rare or not, it's what it is today that counts. The body plate on your car does not change its value one whit. It is curious only that it alone remains original. Addressing "Fords inconsistency" in the use of body tags, Ford never did use body tags, but rather, his suppliers did, however consistent or not they were. The in-house bodies never had tags. The use of those tags, I'm sure, were not for registration purposes, but for internal use in tracking materials and methods for quality control purposes. The bootlegging question is misunderstood. Henry Fords "spurious parts" statement dates to a factory letter instructing the inclusion of the Ford Logo on ignition coils, to halt the Warranty Exchange of a genuine Ford coil for a defective competing companies coil. If you have a white 3W to discuss, that's fine if it's a Ford rather than a Willys, but no, an Apache is kinda out of our league! Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 1:51 PM |
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Is there anyway of knowing just how many Real 1937 710 Roadsters still exist in the U.S.?
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 2:03 PM |
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Alan, Thanks for the clarity. The other car is a 1936 3 Window Coupe. I posted it seperately on the discussion so that I may keep my flogging seperate from this one! hehehe....
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| Stroker | -- 01-18-2010 @ 2:24 PM |
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Dan: This may take some research effort on your part, but you appear to deal with that well. I believe that anyone in the US who owns a 37' 710 that isn't a hermit, more than likely belongs to the EV8 Club. If you are not yet a member; simply join, and you will receive a membership roster. Line by line, you will be able to view the cars that our 9000+ members own. You can exclude the out of country ones and "presto" you have your list. I know this won't be 100%, but neither are the numbers in any other database.
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| Stroker | -- 01-18-2010 @ 2:36 PM |
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Dan: I forgot to mention that a 37 Roadster would be listed under "our code" as a 78-71A, rather than a "710".
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| BrianCT | -- 01-18-2010 @ 3:26 PM |
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Stroker, I actually did that counting for a 34 , but I don't think every member lists all of their cars. It would be nice if they did, even future projects, but we have to respect their privacy.
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 3:47 PM |
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As a National Director, in doing preparation for the '38-39 Book, I pulled down a computer readout of all the 38-39 Owners in order to assemble a list of potential contributors to the book. It was discussed by the Board and the Business Manager at that time that this could be a service to the membership for a fee. My list was on that perforated fold-down paper, and was 43 ft long. The idea was shelved, as it didn't seem as if there'd be much interest. As technology has doubled and redoubled since then, I'm sure this would be much simpler today. Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 3:50 PM |
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Stroker, So there isnt a special category for the 710 Roadster!!!??? Good grief! no wonder nobody thinks much of this model here! Even if I went through the roster there is no definite way I can be specific on the 1937 710 model,I'd be splitting hairs with cabriolets still. I wonder how a 37 Ford Roadster model celebrated so much in the plastic "WANT TO BE" world with such a huge following is not recognized enough by EFV8 to at least have its own category in the roster! You dont have to look very far to see this is a very HOT topic because this thread already has over 1000 visitors. If there existed only 12 white rhino's , Im pretty friggin sure Marlin Perkins is at least gonna give them a seperate pen than the grey ones! This message was edited by arguelles67 on 1-18-10 @ 3:55 PM
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 4:01 PM |
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Anybody out there think that EFV8 should respect the sanctity of the 1937 Ford Roadster model 710 to categorize it seperate from cabriolets? This message was edited by arguelles67 on 1-18-10 @ 4:03 PM
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| donclink | -- 01-18-2010 @ 5:15 PM |
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According to this current ad for a '37 Ford Roadster on CarsForSale.com, there are only "10 known to exist", and this is one of them: http://carsforsale.com/used_cars_for_sale/1937_Ford_Roadster_107554692_5 It's a little pricey. Counting the one listed in The EFV8 Club Classifieds, that makes two we can account for.....
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 5:30 PM |
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Dan, you got it wrong again. There are separate codes for every model in our roster. If you were a member, you'd know that. I don't know why we're all wasting our time with a rat rod other than having the dubious distinction of being part of this ridiculously long thread. Anyone with a whit of car savvy should know that your Havana Taxi isn't worth the bunker oil to ship it to the States. There. I said it. Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 8:11 PM |
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Alan, Thats 1937 Ford 710 Roadster Havana Taxi to You Sir! If you have seperate codes for every model in your roster than DANG IT! Why can I just get a simple answer to how many 1937 Ford 710 Roadsters exist in the U.S.? If its only 10-13 examples , obviously the basic principals of supply and demand set in and that is what determines the feasibility of the project of wether to turn the subject RAT ROD into a Handsome Prince! Its the Budget..... And there is alot of cheese between the very bogus estimate of $5000.00 to $94500.00 of DonClink's new york example. By the way I never mentioned that I did have any car saavy. That would be the reason I ask the EXPERTS. This message was edited by arguelles67 on 1-18-10 @ 8:20 PM
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| john brayton | -- 01-18-2010 @ 9:17 PM |
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Hi All, I have for sale (what I believe to be) a 37 Roadster. Potential buyers have inspected it and seem convinced that it's legitimate. Here's a photo:
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 9:33 PM |
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John, Would you be so nice and get us a picture of the firewall to see the placement and condition of the Body ID Tag? Would also like to see some more pics of the car. This message was edited by arguelles67 on 1-18-10 @ 9:42 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 9:43 PM |
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Dan, I've been beating myself up ever since I wrote my last posting. I'm glad you didn't take serious offense to my rude post, but I do apologize anyway. The reason you can't get a simple answer as to how many '37 roadsters there are is because our roster is almost a half inch thick, with perhaps 100 members per page. Nobody but the asker of your question is going to do that research for you. You'll just have to do it yourself. Join the club and you'll get a roster in the mail. Count the 78 71A listings, and you'll have an approximation of how many are in drivable condition. Multiply that number by two, and you'll be close to your answer of how many '37 Roadsters there are total. John, Welcome to our Forum, and good to see some fresh steel. Can you upload some more pictures of your car? We'd love to see them, and who knows, you might find a buyer! Tell us where you are, and what you know about the history of your car? Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 10:00 PM |
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Alan, Apology accepted.....Fair enough, I cant know something unless I buy something? HaHaHa what a used car salesman tactic! Ok....You twisted my arm I'll get a membership if you promise to be nice to all those non-car-saavy-smuck potential members asking stupid questions! But if I do what you say and I still dont get what I want, a Havana firing squad will be the order of the day... Love, Dan
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 10:22 PM |
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Dan, I've been beating myself up ever since I wrote my last posting. I'm glad you didn't take serious offense to my rude post, but I do apologize anyway. The reason you can't get a simple answer as to how many '37 roadsters there are is because our roster is almost a half inch thick, with perhaps 100 members per page. Nobody but the asker of your question is going to do that research for you. You'll just have to do it yourself. Join the club and you'll get a roster in the mail. Count the 78 71A listings, and you'll have an approximation of how many are in drivable condition. Multiply that number by two, and you'll be close to your answer of how many '37 Roadsters there are total. John, Welcome to our Forum, and good to see some fresh steel. Can you upload some more pictures of your car? We'd love to see them, and who knows, you might find a buyer! Tell us where you are, and what you know about the history of your car? Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 10:25 PM |
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Alan, Ok buddy? you are embarrasing me.....stop beating youself up.... were cool man! Dan
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-18-2010 @ 10:58 PM |
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I didn't do that. We've got echos... Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-19-2010 @ 5:15 AM |
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Alan, I know, just messing with ya..... Dan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-19-2010 @ 5:49 PM |
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John, Could you share with us a picture of the firewall and Body ID plates?
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-19-2010 @ 7:18 PM |
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Stroker, I had asked you earlier if my steering wheel was original. It says deluxe.I sent you had sent you a close-up shot. My thinking is: If I have the 85 on the grill and the steering is original, potentially and more specifically this came to Colombia as a deluxe model.... That is if the steering wheel is consitent with this 1937 car. Dan
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| wmsteed | -- 01-20-2010 @ 10:34 AM |
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Dan, In regards to your question about the term "DeLux" on the horn button of the '37... I don't believe that Ford used the DeLux term on any of their horn buttons through the 1940's. The horn buttons usually have the stylized V8, or Ford in script. I think the first time that Ford actually put the term Delux on any of their bodies was in 1940. Of course, when export cars are encountered, the whole game changes because of the whims, desires and import laws of the countries to which the vehicle was exported. In reviewing the contributions to this topic and some of the printed matter I have, I would have to agree that in all probability your car started life a US built roadster (710), or portion there-of. Maybe just the cowl forward was shipped to Columbia for some kind of a special use vehicle. This could explain the non-correct doors, vent windows and unusual tail section. Many years ago I passed on the purchase of a running '35 Ford Roadster which had been cut down into an orchard truck. The body had been cut off just behind the rear door jamb and a pickup bed added in place of the body. The owner wanted $120. for the car/truck, I only wanted to pay $100 so I walked away. Several months later I went back figuring I would match his price......wrong..the car was gone. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-20-2010 @ 10:48 AM |
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wmsteed, If you look close it actually says "De Luxe",for the sake of clarity ..... same ball game right? Just dont wanna leave any stone unturned. Dan
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| BrianCT | -- 01-20-2010 @ 12:11 PM |
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I think any open 37 would be a delux, however I think the 37 banjo wheel had straight spokes.
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| Stroker | -- 01-20-2010 @ 2:31 PM |
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Dan: I wasn't trying to "blow you off". I didn't respond to your request as to the steering wheel center because I simply didn't know, and I was hoping that someone who was more knowledgeable than I am would respond. I've never in my 55 years of "screwing with Fords" seen a "Deluxe" wheel center. I'm just now back online, after a major ice-storm and power-outage up here in the Midwest. Thanks to my Briggs & Stratton powered generator, I'm warm and happy, but I can't run my furnace and satellite dish at the same time. While I'm not a fan of "Havana Taxi's" (Alan's term), I do appreciate the work that went into "messing with" the 36 3-window. I think the grille was inspired by a 47-49 Ford Pilot. And, someone spent a LOT of time messaging metal on that one. I'm sure you have seen lots of "interesting cars" in Columbia. The problem is; it's kind of a matter of taste. Our club is composed mainly of people who strive to bring things back to as close to "As Henry Built It" as possible. On the other hand, we cherish cars like Edsel Ford's customs, which obviously are NOT as Henry made them. Guess it matters who did the massaging. I think a lot of what we have been debating are "cultural issues". For example: Doane Spencer built a highly modified 32 Ford Roadster, that from a "purest" standpoint, would be considered a sacrilege. People of my background (hot rodding) would consider it the "Mona Lisa" of Ford Roadsters. I think you could bring any and all of your "interesting" finds to the US and probably sell them for more than they are worth in US Dollars in Columbia. I think the problem we have had on this forum has been getting us hard-core Ev8'rs AND YOU to accept that these are custom cars, and your insistence that we "recognize" them. These are "Reformist Automobiles", and much like reformist religious factions, are not well received in the "Mother Church". Stroker
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-20-2010 @ 7:39 PM |
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wmsteed, I will always try and keep an open mind and be objective as possible. Import cars have always been heavily documented thoughout their lifespan as well as cars in Colombia for tax purposes. They are heavily taxed and a car that sits and does nothing still has to pay tax accumulated through the years if the tax is not paid. For this reason I am sure when the car came from the U.S. to Colombia, It arrived as a complete car (CONVERTIBLE)and not as you suggest perhaps a section of car. I am pretty sure the doors and the window details are local adaptations to the local weather directed by a Colombian taste for an American Car. As for the tail section ,I will leave that to the experts on this forum that would like to comment.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-20-2010 @ 7:46 PM |
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BrianCT, There was a Roadster Deluxe and one that was not Deluxe, this can be viewed on the Classic Car Data Base. The Deluxe had some "EXTRA" appointments.... Thats why i was wondering if maybe the steering wheel was original..... Again maybe it was done that way for export car models or it just might be my wishfull thinking! Here is a close-up of the steering pic
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-20-2010 @ 8:18 PM |
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Stroker, Yesiree! I see alot of interesting cars in Venezuela and Colombia. I own a handmade roof tile factory on the border of Colombia and Venezuela and see what I think are deals all the time. Im just trying to see things through this formun's eyes so I can get a good idea possibly on what I should bring back when I have the opportunity. Im not a car dealer, dont know crap about cars but I speak spanish fluently and I have a business that allows me to ship containers month to month northbound to the US so my transport is pretty much easy. I recieve the containers from my Colombian company to the US and My American company "Artezanos Inc." distributes in the U.S. We have a traditional sustainable roof design that integrates solar. You can see our HYBRID GREEN ROOF DESIGN at www.artezanos.com,,,,,, This arrangment allows me to bring over cars when I find something interesting. Its just fun and you have positive experiences and that what I like. I clearly see the conflict here and I understand the dynamics. I am a purist at heart and I understand the EFV8, however I have little trouble following the logic here sometimes because it doesnt seem consistent from a purist point of view (MY POINT OF VIEW). Its wonderful to gaze at early cars that look like they rolled of the showroom floor, that goes without saying! But I do see a problem when the same respect is not given to a car that is rare in that there seems to be so few examples left regardless if they are in a basterdized condition. The dichotomy here is that while we do not wish to offend those here about monetary issues there seems to exist a double standard on how fea$ible it is to bring a project car back to a Glorious Classic status. I believe that is up to the individuals pocketbook to decide wether or not he/she wishes to posses a limited and scarce model. At this point its simple economy. The EFV8 purist is going to evaluate and end product for its being correct from what I gather, with a blind eye to monetary imput? Or are they? So you see because its for love, Its a double standard. One is d*mned for suggesting a car can be restored back to classic with a project car so far gone and yet it would be welcome if an unfathmed monetary investment breathed new life into an otherwise hopeless case. But I'm not going to judge nor split hairs. Just trying to learn an have some fun...
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| wmsteed | -- 01-20-2010 @ 9:46 PM |
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I am surprised that nobody challenged my earlier posting about Delux on the Ford steering wheels. After i wrote my bit about the steering wheels I called my brother who has a '37 Ford DeLuxe 4dr sdn. He has owned the car for over 35 years, It is a well maintained three owner car. The steering wheel on his car is a banjo type, three large spokes with 5 smaller spokes and a V8 emblem cast into the hard rubber center. The wheel appears to be identical to the '36 Banjo that I have attached a pic of. I called a friend of mine that has a very nicely restored '38 Ford DeLuxe. His steering wheel is a dished banjo with a stainless DeLuxe horn button similar to the '39 wheel. Most likely the original horn buttons on the '38-39 would have been painted to match the steering wheel with only the "DeLuxe" being polished. Maybe one of the '38-39 guys will chime in and confirm, or shoot down what I have written. My earlier comment regarding the possibility that the car in question could have been shipped to Columbia as an incomplete vehicle is based on past experiences. Many country's have, or had, some very strange import laws. Another side to the story is that originally vehicles which we consider to be antiques and/or collectibles, were in fact nothing more than tools to do a job. People actually purchased new vehicles, cut away the portion (s) of the body not useful to them and put the thing to work. When I found my '39 Plym conv it was sitting in a field in Montana, where it had sat for 38 years. The engine was out of the car, sitting in the grass in front of the car. When I asked the farmer why the engine was out of the car, he told me that they were harvesting their wheat and the engine failed in the combine. No big deal, the engine in the Plym had been recently rebuilt so they removed it for use in the combine... They just never got around to reinstalling the engine because winter set in before they got around to it. Just a tool to the farmer, a treasure to me, one of only 36 known examples of the '39 Plym conv cpe. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-20-2010 @ 11:11 PM |
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Stroker, I haven't followed the Forum closely the last couple of days, but I do have the following observation of the wheel on the Havana Taxi: There have been many makers of steering wheels over the years that have copied the Ford Banjo design. This is not one of them. It is a genuine Ford DeLuxe (Note the spelling and capitalization in the word DeLuxe) wheel from a 1939 model. The correct '37 DeLuxe wheel has straight spokes and a V superimposed over an 8. The '37 Ford (standard) wheel is all black plastic. Dan, Yes, there were Ford (never called Standard) and Ford DeLuxe open cars, however, the last of them were the Roadster and Phaeton of 1934. All Ford open cars were DeLuxe after 1934. In considering the differences between the careful restoration of a river bottom find and the same amount of money and labor required to restore your havana Taxi to it's former self, in short, the difference is in the appreciation of the rust bucket time capsule, as opposed to the distasteful task of working with a low budget slammed together piece of work. We do appreciate the achievement of putting a car on the street with the expenditure of very little money and the use of unskilled labor. However, we are beyond that phase of life, and wish to do things differently than we did as kids with our first cars. Alan
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| wmsteed | -- 01-21-2010 @ 10:18 AM |
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I guess I am what could be called an enigma when it comes to old cars. I like most brands and styles, be it 4dr sdn or conv cpe. I have Buick's, Chevy's, Dodge Fords, Olds and Plymouth's. I also like pickups, having had or have several. As a general rule I like vehicles to look like they did when they were originally built by the manufacture, however, I like then to run well and be safe, I generally upgrade the power train and add power brakes, air conditioning. It is very true that the degree to which an old car is restored is in direct relationship to the depth of the owners taste and pockets. The Low Rider types will spend a small fortune on chrome and custom lift assemblies, yet when it comes to the power train, if it will start and pull away from the curb, that is good enough. The go-fast guys will spend a suit case full of money on a big CID engine with blower and enough polished billet accessories to blind anyone not wearing their shades. The restorer's fall somewhere in between the above. Some restorers think "Bondo" is state of the art, to others if it ain't steel it is junk. If someone would have told me 12 years ago that I would have close to 100K and 12 years of work tied up in a '39 Plym conv., I would have told them they were crazy, however, that is where I am at. To summarize; Can the car that has been praised and defiled in this topic be restored to it's former glory of being Ford's "UGLY DUCKLY", along with the '38's? Yes it can, it is simply a matter of, does the owner have deep enough pockets and the time/patience to stay with the project until it's completion? Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| BrianCT | -- 01-21-2010 @ 1:55 PM |
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Alan, Thank you for confirming my observations on the wheel and no standard converts in 37. Dan, you are confusing Fords with 'classics'. Classics are the cars of movie stars. Fords were for the average man. I would not trust information on Fords from a classics club without confirming it with the V8 books.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-21-2010 @ 4:03 PM |
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Alan, Thanks ahead for not taking off points for misspelling and punctuation! Soooooo I guess the information from Classic Car Data provided by the Horseless Carriage Foundation is an error? Actually when I went back to check , They have only Deluxe model Roadsters for that year and not standard! How disconcerting....
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-21-2010 @ 4:06 PM |
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Wmsteed, Thanks for that ray of light! Dan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-21-2010 @ 4:08 PM |
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Did anyone see pictures of John Braytons Roadster in the classifieds?...... I was figuring you guys started another thread and werent sharing!
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| mvillebob | -- 01-21-2010 @ 6:31 PM |
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No, but I see your auto offered for $29K in the classified section at his site. At the risk of offending you, it will be a relief when it sells and this thread ends! Best, Bob
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-21-2010 @ 9:08 PM |
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Dan, now you're not only off subject, you're looking for free publicity for your business as well as your taxi. I'm sure your car will be the new benchmark for years to come as a result of this thread, but we're not willing to do the same for your business. Alan
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-22-2010 @ 4:35 AM |
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Alan, Seriously, what other way could I have responded to such non-productive and derisive commentary? First off, I refuse to sit idle while my credibility is attacked. I'm not your revered car dealer and I simply offered a friendly reminder to Bob that may give me some benefit. I did not begin this thread to sell a friggin car and to suggest that is ridiculous. Yes I did list my car a couple of days ago only after someone else did and later checked into this Forum. I dont think Im out of place to do this and It was suggested by this thread that it would be probably better to offer this car direct to the benefit of an individual instead of an auction. Alan I have been getting calls from the Classified section of this Forum and I refer them to the scrutiny of the expertise given on this thread so that I may me objective. Although I feel at times you are not always so objective. Thats just my humble opinion. It is very obvious to me that this subject thread is of great interest to many people given the 1600 hits we have in only a matter of 8 days! The items and the knowledge brought together here on this very important subject will benefit future searches of individuals looking for information we have touched upon here these past days. I guess in a certain sense we have a compilation of very hard to come by information and we have beat to death the subject of a deserving, very elusive and little known popular Ford. If indeed you have moved on from slapping parts together and using unskilled labor when you were young, then please do the same with your derrogative name calling of my car. I have treated you with respect and I ask the same from you. This is not the image you should project to new members. There are invividuals who believe here that this car deserves the chance to be brought back to original just because its a limited production model, has a large following and there are so few examples left. You dont have to be almost born in a car to given an incentive to show love for it! Love, Dan
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| Alan | -- 01-22-2010 @ 12:54 PM |
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I like 1600 readers have been watching this thread asking people about your car. When you don't get the answer that you want you just keep going on & on about how rare it is. I only hope the person who buys it for $29k is not a novice thinking he is getting a good car & can fix it up easily. From looking at the photos I think it has been prettied up & full of plastic & definality no worth anything near the money you are asking for it. Don't ask me what I think its worth because I would not touch it with a 40 foor pole. Alan.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-22-2010 @ 4:28 PM |
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Alan, Contrary to what you think ,I do value your opinion. But your opinion is strongly slanted one way. I also like the opinion of others as well so I can see the full spectrum of tastes that Im unaware of. I never tried to convince you that my car is something that its not. I have not given my car more credit that it has recieved from this post by yourself and others included. If someone buys my car I will have had them read this thread and decide for themselves. Im not out to take advantage of a novice because Im one as well. Would you be so kind and tell me where the serial number is located on the frame. Im curious as I have not seen it myself because it was viewed by law enforcement and I didnt want to get dirty the day they verified it to qualify for my title.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-22-2010 @ 4:34 PM |
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TomO, I have to thank you ahead for saving me $300.00 I would have spent at the Miami Kruse Auto Auction today! I took heed of your warning but I went there anyway and there was a guy there demaning his $25000.00 from the last show and he was making a big scene...... They tried to offer him $5000.00 just to go away! all: TomO'S ADVICE WAS ON THE MONEY
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| Alan | -- 01-22-2010 @ 5:51 PM |
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You've got the wrong Alan, the last post by me was my first on this thread. one of your frame numbers should be on the top chassis rail near the steering box and I assure you my opinion is not slanted its the truth. Alan.
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-22-2010 @ 7:13 PM |
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Alan, Im sorry, It was for the other Alan with the tag "ford38v8". But thanks for the response just the same. Dan
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| efv8 | -- 01-23-2010 @ 9:26 AM |
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OK guys. Let's SUSPEND this discussion as it has gone very long . . . if you need to contine this, please start a NEW TOPIC. Thank you. Website Administration This message was edited by efv8 on 1-23-10 @ 9:31 AM
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| wmsteed | -- 01-23-2010 @ 10:21 AM |
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Dan, To expand on your question about the location of the VIN. The primary location of an original Ford VIN is on the frame adjacent to the steering gears. There are secondary locations on the frame under the left door sill and on the left rear of the frame on the hump over the rear axle. The body has to be lifted from the chassis to view both of the secondary locations. The correct VIN starts with a five point STAR 18-3331857, ending with 18-418446. If the STAR is missing and the VIN is not stamped into the frame somewhere close to the steering gears, the VIN has been altered. Ford never used a plate attached to the frame for the VIN. Law enforcement people generally don't care about the correctness of VIN's on old cars so long as they look correct and fall into the proper number range, if the person verifying the numbers has the knowledge and resources to check the numbers for correctness. I have found it to be very interesting that 1945 people have looked at this topic with 122 adding comments. We both know that many of the comments have been very derogatory, and I have to admit that some of mine about the correctness of the "reputed body number" and body alternations could be construed as being "less than friendly". I prefer to keep my comments as factual as possible avoiding the use of ethnic phrases...e.g. Havana Taxi. As I stated earlier, I am somewhat of an enigma, I live eat and breath old cars, yet I, like a lot of other people find, the purest attitudes to be bordering on almost down right rude. I have encountered this lofty attitude many times, regardless of the marque of the vehicle. When I found my '39 Plymouth conv. cpe in 1996 I promptly joined the Plymouth Owners Club (POC). They were so glad to have me because of the car. When I started a topic on their online forum about finding the car and my progress to rebuild it everything was great.... Then I started making postings about some of the upgrades I was making to the car.... I was bombarded with rude comments... The first club meeting I took the car to started out very badly, however, a couple of guys finally came over to look at my car, within a few minutes the car was mobbed. I am now accepted by the Plymouth people as being one of the few experts on the '37-39 Plym conv.. The POC Topic, 39 Plymouth conv. cpe, is the most active topic on the POC site with almost 14,000 viewers and many contributors from several countries. For your info, and anyone else that may be interested, I have attached a pic of an original, unmolested Briggs body tag that Briggs attached to the convertible bodies they made. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| arguelles67 | -- 01-23-2010 @ 6:48 PM |
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wmsteed, and others: The Website Administration has asked that we open a new Topic if we need to continue this conversation. All the acumulated data is very important and some of the earlier data has been deleted possibly as a result to accomodate this very long thread. So as not to inconvenience this Forum please follow up at the new post: 1937 Ford 710 I.D. Part 2 Thanks, Dan
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