| dicky | -- 02-11-2013 @ 2:33 PM |
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Well I have finely made the decision to put another engine in my 1935 Ford. I have been dealing with it overheating for the last 8 years. I have done everything to this motor (thanks for everyones help over the years). I need to know which flathead engines would interchange with my 1936 LB engine. If I remember right, the 1937 & 1938 would be an easy swap. I would like to put a stronger 59AB engine in it. Since I am starting from scratch I am open to any flathead. I am open for suggestions. Dicky Herren 205-675-6948 richardherren@hotmail.com This message was edited by dicky on 2-11-13 @ 2:37 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 02-11-2013 @ 4:21 PM |
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Dicky, Your giving up on a '36LB is going to raise a few eyebrows for sure. You have a desirable engine there, so let me go over a few things for your consideration before you trade and quite possibly wind up with the same overheating problem on your new engine. Engine should be flushed and backflushed, while using a coat hanger to dislodge original casting sand. Run white vinegar for a couple hundred miles to remove scale. Radiator should be rodded out, or recored using the original tanks. Have the top tank reinforced inside to prevent oil-canning, and use a 4lb cap. Check for proper function of your water pumps, and if you are using thermostats, pull them out and check them in a pot of water on the stove. Check for the presence of the bottom radiator splash pan. The distributor should be checked for function and correct timing. Fan belt checked and tightened if neccesary. Fan checked for close proximity to the radiator. Use nothing but Regular gas, never Hi Octane. If you have done all that and still have heat problems, you might consider rebuilding your engine rather than changing for another. It may have been bored to the max which itself is a cause of overheating, in which case you may be able to have it sleeved. While in process, the bare block should be submitted to a process known as "Shake & Bake", where steel shot is bounced around within the cooling passages. If you do replace, the easiest swap is for another 21 stud engine, such as the '37 or '38 you mentioned. Your '36 heads would be used on the new engine, with a block-off plate on the front. Any 24 stud engine up to '48 would also work with the use of flex hoses, as would the post '48 engine with some additional modifications due to the location of the distributor on the later engine. Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 2-11-13 @ 4:26 PM
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| dicky | -- 02-11-2013 @ 6:46 PM |
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Thank you for your input. This is the order of events on my engine. 1. When I bought the car 8 years ago the owner told me that the car never ran hot. I had to have the car towed the first time I drove it (dead battery), the next tim the generator came apart while driving it. 2. Car ran hot from the first time I drove it. I could not keep water in it. 3.Got radiator recored using both the upper and lower tanks. 4. Got the waterpumps rebuilt by Skip. 5. Bought Cast Iron heads to replace aluminum ones. 6. Used preasure washer to wash out water jackets before being sent off to get rebuilt. 7. Got engine rebuilt by someone that had been rebuilding them for 60 years. Engine was baked and then assembled. I have only put about 300 miles on the engine since it was rebuilt in 2005. 8.I had two different people check the distributor. 9.my fan belt is the correct tention. 10. The fan is 1/2 inch from the radiator. 11. I only use regular gas. 12. I had to tighten head bolts (15 to 18) more than once in 2012. Anywhere from 10 LB to 25 LBs. I think this is because I have 12 to 18 Heli-coils installed for the head bolt studs. So you can see why I am frustrated with this engine. I would love to put a LB engine back in, but as you said they are hard to find. I would also like more power to drive it more. That is why I was thinking of putting in a 100 HP engine.
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| ford38v8 | -- 02-11-2013 @ 7:32 PM |
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Dicky, sorry about your bum luck with your car. I say car rather than engine, because few of your complaints are actually about your engine, but about how it was not built correctly. I'd first question the competence of the rebuilder who, after breaking half the studs and replacing them with the use of helicoils, showed further incompetence by failing to use sealer on those studs that penetrate the water jacket. (This, by the way, is not an indication of your engine overheating.) Sometimes a guy has to just bite the bullet and learn how to do his own work and forget lining the pockets of incompetents. Alan
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| supereal | -- 02-11-2013 @ 8:42 PM |
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Before giving up, have both heads resurfaced. We find most old Ford heads are warped. That would explain both heating and coolant loss unless the block is cracked. Install Barr's Leaks when you put the engine together. Heads that are flat shouldn't need to be retightened more than once after about a hundred miles. A simple test for block cracks is to remove the belt from the water pumps, top off the radiator, then look bubbles in the coolant while running the engine.
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| flatheadfan | -- 02-12-2013 @ 12:43 AM |
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Dicky- Something that ford38v8 mentioned that is worth looking for. You must have the lower radiator shield installed. The purpose of the fan is to pull air through the radiator thereby reducing the heat retention of the radiator. However, if you do not have the lower radiator pan installed the fan takes the lazy way out and pulls air up from under the chassis and not through the radiator. The result, the engine heats up. Tom
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| dicky | -- 02-12-2013 @ 5:34 AM |
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I want to thank all of you for your responses. I did not try and rebuild my engine because I did not think I had the expertise to do it. Also there is no V8 Club in Birmingham Alabama for me to get help. The man who rebuilt my engine has a very good reputation on rebuilding flathead engines. He did not break the studs, I did when I was trying to do things myself. A couple of you have mentioned the lower radiator shield. My car has the lower shield in place. I do not have any type of shroud in place. I also am not happy with the cast iron heads that are on my engine because I have an oil leak around the spark plugs. I will take the heads off and get them resurfaced.
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| supereal | -- 02-12-2013 @ 6:52 AM |
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You shouldn't have an oil leak on the surface of the heads around the spark plugs, or anywhere else. The only cause of excess oil in the cylinders would likely be broken or poorly installed piston rings.
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| flatheadfan | -- 02-12-2013 @ 7:00 AM |
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Dicky- This may seem like a stupid question but bare with me... How do you know the engine is running hot? Hopefully, you are not basing on the dash gauge. Those things are terribly inaccurate. Before you start tearing things down get a heat gun (about $40 from Harbor Freight). This can give accurate temperature readings and can isolate what part(s) of the engine is/are running abnormally hot. As for "oil leak around the spark plugs", this sounds more like valve or more possibly piston ring problems than head problems. Have you done a compression test? Tom
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| TomO | -- 02-12-2013 @ 9:50 AM |
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Dicky, you did not mention when your car is overheating, is it when you are driving at highway speeds(50-55 mph), driving in heavy traffic or when idling at a stop light? Each of those conditions call for different fixes. High speed overheating is caused by timing, plugged exhaust or water not being circulated properly( cavitation around impellers, not enough water, plugged passages). The vacuum gauge can be used to check for plugged exhaust and timing problems. Overheating in traffic can be caused by airflow through the radiator, low cooling capacity, poor water circulation or timing. Overheating while idling is usually caused by poor airflow or low cooling capacity. The oil around your spark plugs is probably caused by a defective plug gasket, rough gasket surface or plug not torqued properly. Always use a fresh plug gasket when installing the plugs, use a thread chaser to clean the threaded holes in the head and then torque the plug to 25-30 Ft lbs. If you are having overheating problems with your current engine, you are very likely to have them with any replacement engine if the problem is low coolant capacity or low airflow. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 2-12-13 @ 9:52 AM
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| dicky | -- 02-12-2013 @ 2:54 PM |
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I do have a tepm guage that I installed along. I have checked the engine with a heat gun, do not remember the temps at each cylender. As to when it is runing hot, when I drive it about 15 to 20 miles the temp gets up to atound 200. But it does not do it every single time but most of the time. Speed is 45 to 50 mph. Stopped it goes up quickly. Once it gets to 200, it goes up quickly. When it cools I usuall have to add water. I have to carry a jug of water with me always. It does get very hot in my car when I drive it, I usually sweat alot when driving. My bigest concern is the head bolts keep loosening up.
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| TomO | -- 02-13-2013 @ 7:14 AM |
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Have you checked for combustion leaks into the cooling system? Your symptoms have all of the earmarks of a combustion pressure forcing water out of the cooling system and then overheating. Your heads could be warped as Supereal mentioned or there could be something wrong with the helicoil installation. Another cause of water leakage is the reproduction hose clamps. The reproduction clams stretch when tightened and do not put enough tension on the hose to keep it from leaking when the engine is warm. Have you tried the modern worm drive clamps on your hoses? Tom
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| supereal | -- 02-13-2013 @ 9:26 AM |
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As Tom says, the installation of helicoils may be the cause. If the stud holes were inaccurately drilled, it is possible that one or more may have breached into the waterjacket or a cylinder wall. I've seen it more than once. The oil around the spark plugs is odd. If that much oil is entering the combustion chambers, you should see a cloud of smoke from the exhaust. Another possibility is that the piston ring gaps were insufficient, and the rings are expanding enough to produce excess friction. Same is true of cylinder bores not sized accurately for pistons. It doesn't take much to cause problems. Last month we had a Jeep Cherokee come to our shop with a loud engine knock. The engine had just been overhauled at another place. When we got it apart, we found one cylinder had been bored larger than stock, apparently at the factory, but when fitted with a new standard piston, the noise appeared. Mistakes do happen when too much is taken for granted.
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| dicky | -- 02-13-2013 @ 3:11 PM |
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Water goes out the overflow. I think there is to much presure. There is no smoke coming out the tail pipe. As far as oil cleaking around the spark plugs, this has been going on since I put them on. Some of the threads were crosthreaded. If the holes for the helicoils were not drilled correctly, what do I do?
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| TomO | -- 02-14-2013 @ 8:22 AM |
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The oil around the spark plugs is usually caused by incorrect seating of the gasket. If your plug holes were cross threaded, you may not be able to get a good seal. Too much cooling system pressure is usually caused by a combustion leak into the cooling system. Warped heads, heads not torqued properly, blown head gasket and cracks in the block are the most common causes. I would start by pulling the heads, having the plug holes inspected by a machinist and if they cannot be repaired, replace the heads. If they can be repaired, have the heads surfaced and check all of the studs for correct installation and examine the block for cracks. Then order a new set of head gaskets from C&G or another reliable supplier and toque the cast iron heads to 48 Ft. Lbs, in steps 25FtLBs, 35 Ft Lbs and then 48 Ft Lbs using the correct sequence for your car. Start the car and bring the engine up to operating temperature and the re-torque the heads using the same sequence to 55 Ft Lbs. while the engine is still warm. Do this once more after driving the car about 100 miles, using the lower setting on a warm engine. You should not have to re-torque the heads again. Tom
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| dicky | -- 02-14-2013 @ 6:58 PM |
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I will order some new head gaskets after I get the heads checked. Which is the best? Composit, copper, or steel clad. I have cast Iron now but may at a later date put aluminum on. Tom. what about torquing aluminum heads (for later if I can fix my engine0. This message was edited by dicky on 2-14-13 @ 6:59 PM
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| TomO | -- 02-15-2013 @ 8:25 AM |
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There is little difference in performance of all of the types of head gaskets. The most important thing is to get one made by a experienced company like Victor or Fel-Pro. The aluminum heads would be torqued the same way, except the readings would be lower as the final torque is 40 Ft LBs. Tom
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| supereal | -- 02-15-2013 @ 10:26 AM |
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Be sure to inspect the heads to see if they have been modified for better flow. With the heads on the bench, lying engine side up and the valve pockets at the top, the the center hole at the top should be 3/4" in diameter, and the middle hole should be 5/8". This is to bring the old style 41T heads to match the later 59A. The correct head gaskets have round holes in the middle, instead of he triangle openings of the old design. Early aluminum heads should also be checked for sufficient valve clearance.
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| dicky | -- 02-17-2013 @ 12:26 PM |
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Took my heads off this morning. 10 studs came out with the bolts attached to them. Looked at the cylinders and .060 is marked on the ones I looked at. Also one of the valves was a light tan while the others looked good with no discoloration at all(looked like new valves). I will take my heads to be looked at next week. Will let you know how they are. This message was edited by dicky on 2-17-13 @ 12:26 PM
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| dicky | -- 02-17-2013 @ 7:09 PM |
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I did forget one thing. The studs that came out with the bnuts attached are the ones that had helicoils.
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| ford38v8 | -- 02-18-2013 @ 12:26 AM |
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Dicky, before reinstalling the studs, check with Permatex and/or Loctite for the correct sealer for use with helicoils. Tell them high temp, threadlock, sealer. Check also with Helicoil, as you may have the wrong helicoil in there if it continues to loosen up. Caution though, remember you might get a "tech" that's fresh out of high school. Alan
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| TomO | -- 02-18-2013 @ 6:53 AM |
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Dicky, I am concerned that the studs came out of the block when you tried to remove the nuts. Did you use all new studs? This is the recommended procedure on a rebuild. Are the Helicoils installed with the top of the coil 1/4 to 1/2 turn below the surface of the block? ( http://www.helicoil.com.sg/HeliCoil-Installation-Instructions.shtml ) Was the tang of the coil broken off when the coils were installed? (part of the installation procedure) Did you install the studs so that the unthreaded portion was flush with the top of the block? (Makes sure that the studs have maximum threads in the block) The head modifications the Supereal suggested are for 24 stud heads, not your 21 stud heads. Do as Alan suggested about the thread sealer. Tom
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| supereal | -- 02-18-2013 @ 10:29 AM |
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Right, Tom. I suggested it as Dicky said he was considering a 59A swap. I'm still mystified as to how oil could be leaking around the spark plugs, yet no exhaust smoke is seen. Bad rings or loose valve guides could allow oil into the cylinders, as you know, but show up as smoke and poor compression. It would take a lot of oil to be forced out at the plugs.
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| dicky | -- 02-18-2013 @ 6:10 PM |
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I want to again thank you all for your input. I am not able to look at my car this week. I do know that new head bolts were used on the rebuild. When I noticed that all the studs that came out helicoils, I did not notice how they were in the block. I will look this weekend.
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| TomO | -- 02-19-2013 @ 7:18 AM |
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Bob, I think that he did not have a good seal at the plug gasket. He said that some of the plug holes were cross-threaded. That would make it difficult to get the correct torque to compress the plug gasket. I hope that he has the spark plug hole checked for good threads and a good gasket surface. I think what he is calling oil is a mixture of gas fumes and oil fumes that have bypassed the spark plug gasket. I had a similar problem on a 1967 Comet after I took it in to a Ford Diagnostic Center in 1969. I was headed on a 7,000 mile vacation drive and wanted the car checked over. Ford used trainees at the Center, unknown to me at the time, and they cross-threaded one plug. The engine started to make a terrible knocking noise as I drove into Denver. The plug had worked loose. There was all of this oily substance coating the valve covers and inner fender. The Lincoln Mercury dealer in Denver had to replace the head as it was under warranty. Tom
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| supereal | -- 02-19-2013 @ 10:00 AM |
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Thanks, Tom. Cross threading is epidemic now that so many new cars and trucks have aluminum heads. Often we find that the threads are almost all gone because the person removing the plugs didn't reckon on a carbon ring on the combustion end of the plug, and turned the plugs out with some force. Some dealers insist on removing the heads for repair, or even replacing the very expensive heads. We invested in a special set of tools that allow us to install Heli-coils while the heads are in place. Most of us learned, some the hard way, that unless you can thread the plugs almost all the way down by your finders, it is likely they will be cross threaded, regardless of the vehicle. With today's plugs deeply recessed in the heads, it is difficult to achieve. Penetrating oil should be applied and allowed to soak, then the plugs should be worked out by turning them until resistance is felt, then running them in again, then out. This is particularly true of late model Fords.
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| drkbp | -- 02-22-2013 @ 10:41 AM |
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dicky, I have a '35 with a 21 stud that came with it and I am following this thread. I changed out a thermostat this morning and decided to check all the water temperatures out of curiosity and this discussion. The stats I have in there are 160 degree and are called "standard". Checked them on the range wth a temp gage. Miss Happiness wanted to know what in the world I was doing cooking parts! Mounted them back in the car and ran it for 30 minutes sitting in the drive. Temp stabilized at 155 degrees in the top tank (by thermometer). Fast idle I could get 165 degrees. Ambient is 70F. I cleaned out the radiator and block last week with a water hose because I had the hoses off but used no flush or anything. I now know that 165 in the top tank is just a little below center of my dash gage "normal" range. So I learned what the gage says/means after all these years. I do have a flat tube radiator but it has been in the car since 1975. I have a vented radiator cap, no pressure. The NOS stat I put in this morning had the instructions still in the box. It recommended: 1. The "Standard Temperature" for use without a hot water heater or for use with hot water heater when alcohol is the anti-freeze. 2. The "High Temperature" is for use with a hot water heater when prestone or glycerine is the anti-freeze. It also talked about "adjustable stats" and there is a pair on tbay but I've never used that kind. I don't know what the High Temp is but it probably is the 180 degree. Super probably knows. The bottom line is this car just does not run hot unless something is wrong. I surely don't have the only ice cold V8 in town and can't quite figure out why we hear so much about pressure systems etc., unless your radiator is no good. Model T guys throw water pumps, water wetter and everything else at them but all they need is a GOOD radiator. I just put a radiator on a brass '13 Ford. I know it's $$$ but there is no practical/real substitute. I do want to say that this thread has helped me understand a lot more about other engine issues. There are so many pitfalls on the rebuilds and you fellows really impress me with your savy on this. Ken in Texas
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