| Flatbob | -- 01-03-2010 @ 8:33 AM |
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Got a new Drake steel tank, fuel line & rebuilt carb; car ran fine for about 65 miles after sitting for about 5 weeks, now am experiencing same problems again. Moss Motors has an interesting article on ethanol; here's what I learned: In a open fuel system like we have in our old Fords shelf life is about 35-40 days because ethanol based fuels absorb moisture up to 50 times greater than the standard gas resulting in "phase seperation," water in the fuel. There's a laundry list of other bad things it does also. Fuel stabilizers help but not completely. Wish I would have got a fiberglass tank & not worried about authenticity. Who's got the parts for an ethanol proof carb?
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| TomO | -- 01-03-2010 @ 9:22 AM |
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Flatbob, Most carburetor kits sold today have alcohol resistant parts. Describe your symptoms again in this post, there may be an easier way to solve your problem. It may not even be fuel related. I have been using gasoline with ethanol added since the middle 1990s in my car, and add Stabil when the car is going to sit more than 30 days. I have had no problems with the car running due to this gas. Tom
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| supereal | -- 01-03-2010 @ 10:40 AM |
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More than likely, you are getting "wet" fuel from a service station. While gasohol is "hydroscopic" and attracts moisture, it is due to contamination during transportation and storage, in most cases. If you get a bad batch of gas, one remedy is the addition of "Heet" to the tank. It is methanol, rather than ethanol, and has "deiced" fuel for longer than I can remember. I'd buy my gas elsewhere. Some very old carb kits are not "fuel proof" with nitrile parts. Ask your supplier before you buy about this, because they are still being sold.
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| Flatbob | -- 01-03-2010 @ 11:37 AM |
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Tomo, thanks for responding; you helped me before with a very troubling fuel gauge problem. I let the car sit overnight & it started right up this morning. Anyway am going to get new parts for the carb that I know are better suited for today's gas. Thanks, Bob
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| Flatbob | -- 01-03-2010 @ 11:41 AM |
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Bob, I get my gas at a high volume station so I know the gas hasn't been sitting in their tanks for very long, will put some HEET in the tank also, maybe some STABIL also. thanks, Bob
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| deluxe40 | -- 01-03-2010 @ 11:57 AM |
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In my opinion your problem is not due to the new metal tank or to the generic problem of new gas going bad in 5 weeks. I have several cars with stock tanks that regularly sit for five weeks or more. I try to get them all out at least once a month for a 20 mile run, but sometimes I don't get to it. At this rate I only add new gas about once every three to six months. I also look for an excuse to take a long run and use up most of a tank at least once a year. I have had trouble with three gas tanks this year, but they were all tanks in cars that had been left sitting with gas in them for more than 10 years. I agree that you may have gotten a bad batch of gas or, maybe, you have now run the car enough to cause another problem to surface. I'd take it from the top. Check the vacuum, the spark at each plug and look at the screen or bowl in your fuel pump -- or pull the top off of the carb to look for residual junk (e.g., a stray bit of gasket or sealer from the installation of your fuel pump sending unit). Good luck.
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| Flatbob | -- 01-03-2010 @ 3:57 PM |
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Deluxe 40, yes, am going to start with basic trouble shooting and see what the problem is. May not be bad gas as it fired right up the next day but wouldn't start later in the same day. Thanks, Bob
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| Stroker | -- 01-03-2010 @ 4:58 PM |
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Through the years, I have found that 97.6% of all fuel problems are ignition (and vice-versa)
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| ford38v8 | -- 01-03-2010 @ 9:31 PM |
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Stroker, let me know the next time you go to Vegas... Do you play craps? Alan
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| Stroker | -- 01-04-2010 @ 5:18 AM |
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Alan: My preferred venue is Wendover, rather than Vegas. Dan
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| TomO | -- 01-04-2010 @ 7:34 AM |
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Flatbob, does the car fail to start when warm after just sitting for less than 1/2 hour? Does it start right up after sitting for an hour or more? If that is your situation, your car may be flooded due to a leaking power valve gasket. Try flooring the pedal while cranking the engine to see if it will start. Also, I would check the spark when it is failing to start, you coil or condenser may be breaking down under heat. Speedway Motors sells a kit with a power valve that has the same seating area for the gasket as the carburetor has. Use a round gasket, not the one with the triangular cutout. Tighten the power valve to 15 lbs of torque. I prefer the replacement oil pan drain plug gaskets as they are thicker and seem to seal better than the paper gaskets in the kits. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 1-4-10 @ 7:41 AM
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| supereal | -- 01-04-2010 @ 9:27 AM |
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There is an excellent article in the new issue of the V8 TIMES regarding the machining of the replacement power valves so they seat properly on the gasket. That is the main cause of power valve leakage.
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| Flatbob | -- 01-04-2010 @ 3:29 PM |
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Tomo, the car would not start after siting less than 10 minutes after having been driven about 5 miles. The battery seemed to have good cranking power but would not start but let it sit overnight on a battery tender & fired right up. Today (Mon.) fired up after being on the tender overnight, shut it off & tried to restart immediately & wouldn't fire. Put it on a charger for an hour & now it starts. Thought for sure it was a fuel problem but not so sure now. Will investigate further & let you know. Thanks, Bob
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| trjford8 | -- 01-04-2010 @ 7:20 PM |
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Bob, it sounds like it is a spark/electrical related problem. First I would check all the grounds that are on the car. make sure they are contacting clean metal and are tight. Make sure you have the correct size battery cables. Small diameter cables create a lot of resistance. Also check the age of your battery. These are things that can cause the problem you describe.
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| 39 Ken | -- 01-05-2010 @ 5:05 AM |
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Sounds electrical to me. Check to see if the ignition resistor goes open after it heats up. Also, change the condenser to a new one. Not sure what year your car is but an Echlin IH 200 is still USA made and should work. If you have a V/O meter, check the voltage on either side of the ignition switch to see if there is a significant drop there. They get dirty over the years and can build up a great amount of resistance in the circuit. Finally, you should have your coil rebuilt by Skip Haney. Ken This message was edited by 39 Ken on 1-5-10 @ 5:07 AM
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| TomO | -- 01-05-2010 @ 9:30 AM |
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Flatbob, your problem has all the earmarks of a flooded engine. Pull the plugs on one side of the engine after the car has been run and turned off for about 10 min. I think you will find one or more plugs that are wet with gas. Tom
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| Flatbob | -- 01-05-2010 @ 10:43 AM |
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Ken, have 5.8V at the battery and the same at ignition switch when turned on but not running & have new condenser. I rebuilt the engine and it has only 64 miles on it & doubt there is any dirt where it shouldn't be. To complicate matters it fired right up this morning without being on the battery tender overnight. Thanks, Bob
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| Flatbob | -- 01-05-2010 @ 10:48 AM |
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Tomo, did as you said, the plugs don't appear to be wet to me but seem "sooty." Have pulled the plugs after driving in the past and they are a light tan/brown color. Thanks, Bob
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| Flatbob | -- 01-05-2010 @ 12:53 PM |
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Did a compression & vacuum test and was discouraged, 65lbs. on two cylinders and 85lbs. on the rest, 16'on vacuum reading. I thought it drove good but had no other early V8 to compare to. Test was done with all plugs removed, WOT but paper air cleaner on.
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| 39 Ken | -- 01-05-2010 @ 2:35 PM |
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A fully charged battery should be about 6.7 volts. If it is low, you may need a new battery. When it's running, you should see about 7.2 on the volts. You didn't say, but what voltage did you have after it warmed up? Did it start right up again? New condensers are not always good. NOS after sitting on the shelf for a while will go bad. New ones made off shore; one out of three are OK, the rest, not so much. Same for a NOS coil. When they get hot, they fail. Get Skip to rebuild yours. He uses modern technology in his rebuilds and they work, hot or cold. My point re; the ignition switch was the internals of the switch get dirty and they build resistance inside of them. Check the voltage going into it then coming out of it. If it's clean, you'll see little to no loss. If it's dirty, you will have resistance. If the combined loss of voltage, starting with a low battery plus resistance in the circuit adds up to less than 3 volts or so at the coil, you probably won't get a start. TRJ mentioned your cables. Some of the repop cables are 12 volt with thick covering making you think it's 6 volt. I make mine out of 0/0 welding cable and as TRJ said, make sure the attach points for the cables are clean and not painted. Paint will not allow full contact of the attach point and you will see a voltage drop at that point. Especially when everything is hot. Where the starter meets the bell housing, that should be clean also with not paint. You should also have an attachment at the front of the starter to an oil pan bolt. This provides stabilisation to the starter as well as another grounding point. I hope this helps. Ken This message was edited by 39 Ken on 1-5-10 @ 2:41 PM
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| Flatbob | -- 01-06-2010 @ 8:11 AM |
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Ken, will follow up on your tips & recheck voltage readings. Thanks, Bob
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| Flatbob | -- 01-06-2010 @ 4:55 PM |
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Ken, charged the battery to fully charged but showed only 5.93V across the battery terminals (worn out battery?) yet at the ignition switch hot side read 5.96V and drops to 5.50V on the other side of switch when ignition is in the on position. I think maybe I need a new battery again? Thanks, Bob
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| BrianCT | -- 01-07-2010 @ 6:25 AM |
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Is your volt meter calibrated? Maybe you should check a know good battery.
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| TomO | -- 01-07-2010 @ 8:33 AM |
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Good photo of the plugs. The engine is running rich and you are probably leaking fuel past the power valve gasket. This would cause your hard starting after shutdown. The low vacuum gauge readings could be due to a rich mixture. The compression readings suggest that you have a couple of valves that are sticking. A wet compression test and careful observation of the vacuum gauge will further help to diagnose this condition. Have your battery tested with a modern load tester. It will give you a good idea of the condition. Most places that sell batteries will test it for free. Tom
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| supereal | -- 01-07-2010 @ 9:32 AM |
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To accurately test a battery, it requires a device with a built in load, both to reduce the surface charge, and to accurately measure the voltage with a calibrated load. Your reading would seem to indicate a weak cell.
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| Flatbob | -- 01-07-2010 @ 12:21 PM |
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TomO, if the valves were adjusted way loose on the two low cylinders could that explain the low compression? Also, am beginning to think I have a battery that's a little weak; maybe not spinning fast enough to get a good reading. Got a new quality rebuild kit for the Carb. Thanks, Bob
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| supereal | -- 01-09-2010 @ 9:43 AM |
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Valves that are set too tight will affect compression if they don't seat properly. Chances are that the valve seats are eroded if the clearance was inadequate.
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| BERTHA | -- 02-08-2010 @ 7:13 AM |
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""The introduction of water on E-10 fuel can be disasterous. E-10 can hold up to four teaspoons of water in suspension per gallon. Once this saturation point is exceeded, the solution separates and the gas floats on top while the ethanol and water mix on the bottom. This event is called "phase separation". Ethanol fuel can absorb enough water to reach it's phase separation point in just over 3 months at 70% humidity. While the phase separation slurry in itself can cause problems by clogging fuel systems, the more immediate problem is that the remaining gasoline has now lost it's original octane value which can cause poor running and in some cases engine damage. When phase separation occurs, the fuel should be drained and replaced. Fuel storage and winterization has to be handled differently when using E-10 fuels. Manufacturers are warning that fuels need to be stabilized if un-used for as little as 2 weeks. Not all stabilizers are known to be E-10 compatible. Non-alcohol based fuel stabilizer additives are a must for ethanol fuel." Sta-bil and CRC have worked very well for both the Ford and boat. 24/7/365 for the Ford as it can sit for awhile between drives. MMO goes in at every fill up also. Had the original tank cleaned once and rebuilt the carb at the same time.(1988) We have owned the Ford since 1976. So far so good. This message was edited by BERTHA on 2-8-10 @ 7:17 AM
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| supereal | -- 02-08-2010 @ 9:48 AM |
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It is important to remember that there is a difference between ethanol and methanol. The former is "hydroscopic" and, as noted above, attracts moisture. Some, but not all, is removed at the plant producing this type of alcohol. The other, methanol, is sold under the name "Heet", and combines with the moisture to create a burnable fuel, rather than separate into layers in the tank. Filling stations with low fuel sales often pump "wet" gas. I'd opt for a busy station when buying fuel for a lightly used vehicle, and put in a can of Heet.
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