| telriv | -- 11-07-2012 @ 6:02 PM |
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Hello everyone. My name is Tom Telesco, I'm 66 yrs. young & I am auto mechanic by trade which I graduated trade school from & this is also my hobby. I have owned my own businees now for more than 30 yrs. I will work on just about anything you can think of. As a business owner whatever it takes to make the customer happy I will do within reason. If it will generate a buck bring in your lawnmower, weed wacker, Jeep or whatever. As of the last 18 or so years I've gotten into more of the older cars & Hot Rods. It sometimes gets frustrating trying to fix 30-60 years of "Jerry Rigging" & the time it takes to make it right. But, there is also a pride in doing it correctly if the customer will allow. I also worked for Ford for a number of years in the early to mid 60's. So I do have "Some" knowledge of early Ford cars, etc. Really I love all cars no matter what make. I own a '64 Buick Riviera I bought new, '65 Cobra, '68 Dodge Charger RT/SE, '72 Buick Skylark, '61 Buick Lesabre & there are more I save for parts etc. The oldest car I ever rebuilt was a 1915 Model T about 30 yrs. ago that my customers father bought new. I still service it & all his other cars today. I've helped build a few Hot Rods, '32 Fords & '32/3 Window Coupes. I'm most known for Buick "NailHeads" which I designed & sell mini-starters for & also Adjustable, Varible Ratio "Roller Tip Rocker Arms" for. I'm known as the "NailHead" guru. Yeah, that & about a buck & a half will get you a coffee just about anywhere. I'm just offering this up not as an advertisement but more a little history of myself & where I'm coming from. I don't now or ever will claim to be an expert on anything. Everyday is another learning adventure. LOL The reason for this post & joining this forum is that I have a customers '53 Victoria. I also service other early Ford vehicles that my customers own. From a 1915 Model T to a '36 Ford, mostly original, V-8 pick-up & various others. A little history is that this car was WAY over restored sometime back in the 70's when it only had about 9K on the speedo. Myself I would have "Preserved" it rather than restore. Although it still wears it's original upholstery. My customer bought it about 12 years ago from a museum with, again, only 9K on the speedo. Today it has 30K. The car is doing what it's supposed to do which is being driven. While servicing the car before being put away for the winter I noticed the innner seal for the control valve was leaking. As far as I was concerned this was NOT a problem as I have "Rebuilt" many of these in the past with no problem like I am having with this car. When I worked at Ford when a customer came in with a control valve leaking we would order a new control valve & install it. While the car was under warranty or was a used car to be put out on the lot for sale is where I was called to "Reseal" the valve. I'm not going to say I've rebuilt thousands, but over the years it has probably been at least a couple hundred. Every so often no matter what you did the valve would continue to leak so it would get the assembly replaced. So I locate the nec. seals & install them as I have on so many other occasions. I know that '53-early '55 are not the same as later seals. Put it all back together & now I only have power steering to the right but not to the left. This time I remove the entire control valve assembly from the drag link, counting the number of turns so I can install it back the same way. Take it completely apart again & check everything I did previously. Now that I have it on the bench & can more closely look at the bore of the power valve, spool valve & do a little closer inspection of the parts. There is NO scoring or any other signs of wear or other problems. Re-install & still have the same problem. Make many phone calls to various "Experts" & can come up with no answers. At least when I talked to someone at Lares Corp. they listened & gave some advice. After removing & installing this valve 4 times now & coming away with the same problem I decide to send it to Lares to be "Rebuilt" yet again. Get power control valve back & the same problem. Send it back again to have checked to make sure all was OK the 1st. time & I'm assured that all is well. Well, you guessed it, same problem. I call them & they tell me to send it back along with the power cylinder. Again, a phone call later assures me everything is working as it should by their testing methods. Of course re-install & still have the same problem. Power steering to the right but NO power steering to the left. Take it all apart again & this time, even though there is little/no visible wear I install a new ball stud & seats & spring. Again, the same. Upon dis-assembly of the unit returned from Lares I checked to make sure all the adjustments were as they are supposed to be. The sleeve was tightened & then backed off until the pin lined up. The studs 1/2" nut was tightened then backed off a 1/4 turn. All this is how I was trained to do it in the past. Moving this adjusting nut does NOTHING for the power steering. In the past, before I knew better, I would tighten the nut until the steering wheel turned itself to the right, then backed it off until it would turn to the left, all on it's own, then adjust the nut half way in the middle. There is NO air in the system as I have made sure & have bleed the system many times. Although, basically the system is self bleeding. What I do notice is when I turn the steering wheel, wheels on the ground, to the right the engine will slow down slightly & you can hear the P/S pump make a small amount of normal noise. If you lock it to the right the engine slows down more & the P/S pump makes a little more noise. Try & turn the wheel left & there are no noises, the engine doesn't slow down & it sounds like the P/S pump is not working at all. All the tie rods, king pins & everything in the front end is not tight or bound up. It all turns freely left or right with the wheels off the ground & the engine not running. At this point I'm at a complete loss as what to do. This car has the original power cylinder with the small crossover tube leading from left to right. All appears to be in correct working order. At this point I'm almost ready to bring the car back to my customers home & deal with it in the spring, but I really can't do that as it will bug me mentally all winter. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions as where to go from here???? Anyone run into the same or somewhat of the same problem???? I'm ready to pull my hair out!!!I'd really appreciate it. TIA, Tom Telesco
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| trjford8 | -- 11-07-2012 @ 6:23 PM |
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I would make sure that the two steel lines on the unit are clean inside. It sounds as if something may be blocking one line. I would also look at the pump. It's the one item you have not touched and it may have an internal proble. Also check the pump return line for any blockage.
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| telriv | -- 11-07-2012 @ 7:55 PM |
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All the steel lines attached to the hoses are good. I have taken each one off & checked them with a coat hanger for obstructions & ran ATF through them while holding them over a drain pan. Oil flowed out almost as fast as squeezing it out with a tip on the bottle. The power steering pump doesn't care which way you are turning the wheel as it rotates the same for left or right. I have to be missing something here, I just don't know what it may be. Any others with suggestions??? Thank you for your response trjford8 Tom telesco
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| Stroker | -- 11-08-2012 @ 6:27 AM |
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Tom: I've already torn all my hair out, so I have nothing more to lose! Consider this however. The fluid flows in two directions in the hose section, so it might simply be a loose section of hose liner that is acting as a "check valve". Just a "SWAG" however.
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| trjford8 | -- 11-08-2012 @ 7:46 AM |
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Stroker may have hit on the problem. Have you changed the rubber hoses? If there is a loose piece of rubber in the return line it would block the fluid. Did you wash out the pump or check the internals of the pump? There may be something inside the pump or line that is blocking one side of the fluid flow. If they are original or old hoses I would look at replacing them.
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| TomO | -- 11-08-2012 @ 11:10 AM |
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It's been many years since I worked on power steering, so I can't give you any actual experience on your type of problem. Because the pump does not make noise when turning left, I doubt if a hose is acting as a one way valve. It sounds more like the spool valve is staying in the neutral position when the wheel is turned left. You may be able to feel the fluid going through the lines at the lock position. Another possibility would be that the power ram has an internal problem allowing the fluid to return without applying pressure to the ram. Try disconnecting the ram from the relay rod and then disconnecting the hose to the ram that would put pressure on the ram when turning left. Put air pressure on the ram with the wheels off of the ground to see if the ram will move. If the ram moves, then the problem is probably in the control valve. Reconnect everything and disconnect the pitman arm from the control valve and operate the spool valve by hand. It should move fairly easily from left to right turn with the pump working. Good luck Tom
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| supereal | -- 11-09-2012 @ 9:44 AM |
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The '53 power brake system is a one year design, and was superceded with a new one for '54-'55. The seal for '53 is different from the others. I suspect this change was made necessary because of many leak problems with the '53 design. As for working only one direction, I agree with TomO regarding the control valve spool. Power steering has undergone many changes over the years, and many of the new cars now use electric, instead of hydraulic, power.
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| telriv | -- 12-08-2012 @ 2:27 PM |
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I thought I would update everyone with a heads up. I can't believe it's been almost a month since I posted this. It WAS the SPOOL valve. Taking everything apart again, feeling like the thousandth time, with the end cap off I had movement in the spool valve. With the end cap on there was NO movement. What I can't understand is that I DID NOT change any parts other than the seals. Since I had an older control valve & some extra small parts I decided to do some measuring on various things. Everything measured EXACTLY the same. I took an old sleeve that was the same length as the original & removed .030" from it. Put it all back together & now have P/S to the right & left, but now it steers easier to the right than left & I cannot adjust it out. So what I did, since I now know where the problem lies, I re-installed the old sleeve & put the cap back on. Same problem, P/S right, not left. Something is preventing the spool valve from moving when the cap is on. I made a gasket from a piece of gasket material about .020" think. Re-installed the cap. Now everything works as it should. Don't know why what happened happened as I did not change any parts but the seals & originally there was NO gasket installed there or is shown in any Ford or other manuals. I have NEVER ued a gasket on the end cap before. Anyway, it solved the problem & I thought I would let everyone know what I found so if anyone else ever has a problem like this THERE IS A FIX!!!!! That's everyone for the advice given as I & many others have NEVER heard of a situation such as this. Thanks again, Tom Telesco P.S. j Just a note for anyone going through a leaky P/S control valve problem. If you have replaced the seals with the correct & original ones & still having a leakage problem. Even if there is a small amount of wear or roughness instead of the seals use O-Rings. Since they will be thicker they will have more sealing area & may just solve your leaking problems. There are some different control/spool valve sizes so I have no recommendations or parts numbers. You will have to get out the calipers & do some measuring & then the approiate thickness o-rings.
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| TomO | -- 12-10-2012 @ 2:19 PM |
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Thanks for updating us. I am glad that you got it fixed. Tom
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