| Flatbob | -- 04-07-2012 @ 3:21 PM |
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Recently had carb. & fuel pump rebuilt by the two "97" gurus and car ran better than it ever has. Car sat for a few days & was very difficult to start & would only run roughly with choke out and did not attempt to drive it. Saw some very small pieces of black debris in fuel; removed sending unit & looked in tank & could see the same debris. Removed carb. & disassembled but found no debris (inline filter.) Drained fuel tank & observed the debris caught by nylon filter placed over gas can. I let the tank dry out for a few days & shot compressed air through fuel line to the tank but saw no evidence of above mentioned debris looking through the the top of the tank. Filled tank with fresh clean fuel & freshly charged battery but still have the same problem. This engine has less than 300 miles on it but has low compression on all cylinders (70-90lbs.) Any ideas?
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| trjford8 | -- 04-08-2012 @ 7:59 AM |
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You did not state the year of your car, but if it's mid 37 or newer you should check the rubber sleeve that connects the fill neck to the tank. If this has never been changed or changed many years ago it is probably starting to deteriorate due to this new gas. Small pieces of rubber begin to flake off and land in the tank. If you touched the debris ,rubbed it between your fingers, and it turned them black it's definitely pieces of rubber. I had this situation many years ago. I replaced the sleeve and cleanaed the tank and had no more problems. The only other thing that may cause what you are seeing is old tank sealer coming loose in the tank.If your tank sat empty for some time and then you put in new gas, some of these sealers(older type) begin to flake off the tank.The older sealers don't do well with ethanol.
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| Flatbob | -- 04-08-2012 @ 8:49 AM |
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Trjford8, it's a '36. The tank is new from Drake and I couldn't see that it had been sealed with anything looking through the sending unit opening with a flashlight. I was thinking about this and it might possibly a bad fuel pump again, even though it was recently rebuilt by Ken ct. Ken rebuilt another pump for me at the same time so am going to put that pump on and see what happens. It seems like engine is starving for fuel & will barely run with the choke full out.....so maybe fuel pump?
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| supereal | -- 04-08-2012 @ 9:45 AM |
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Some debris in gas is normal. That is why an inline filter is necessary. Remove the fuel line at the carb, place the end in a container, and crank the engine. If you don't see an ample stream of fuel, the problem is between the tank and the carb. If you do see ample fuel, be sure that you see jets of fuel in the carb throat whn you work the throttle. If your fuel pump was not alcohol proof, the diaphragm may have been damaged. Many rebuild kits don't have fuel proof parts. Seeing debris is usually a sign that alcohol is present. Almost always, an emerging problem is related to the last work done. Finally, switch the ignition condenser with a known good one. A weak or open condenser will mimic a fuel problem, and sometimes allow the engine to run with full choke.
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| deuce_roadster | -- 04-08-2012 @ 9:45 AM |
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Was the steel line from the tank up to the firewall replaced? If not, it might be possible rust from inside the line is letting go. Even though you blew through it with air it might be old rust. Seems like you have covered everything else.
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| Flatbob | -- 04-08-2012 @ 11:12 AM |
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Okay, not the fuel pump, replaced it with the other rebuilt pump & got the same results; shouldn't have doubted Ken ct's work. Monday will get another condenser. The weather is perfect today, would have been nice to have gone on a Sunday afternoon drive!
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| trjford8 | -- 04-08-2012 @ 12:56 PM |
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Deuce roadster brings up a good point on the steel fuel line. If you have not changed that line it very well could be rusty inside. The rust flakes off and plugs the filter and also small particles will siphon back into the tank.
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| Flatbob | -- 04-08-2012 @ 1:09 PM |
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The fuel line was replaced during restoration, the line is about 10 years old but the car has less than 300 miles on it.
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| trjford8 | -- 04-08-2012 @ 7:26 PM |
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Disconnect the fuel line at both ends and blow compressed air through it. Have a rag on the other end to see if anything comes out of it. The fuel line may have been new 10 years ago, but if the car sat a lot it could still have a rusty line. A car that sat for ten years can have a lot of rust issues in the fuel system. "rust never sleeps".
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| deuce_roadster | -- 04-08-2012 @ 10:13 PM |
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You could take the steel fuel line out of the equation by carefully using a known clean gas can and some new fuel line to the pump.
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| TomO | -- 04-09-2012 @ 7:08 AM |
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Your fuel line is probably plugged with the debris. Do like TRJ said, then look closely at the debris. It could just be welding slag left over from the manufacturing process. If you do see rust flakes, replace the line again. Order the line from Roy Nacewicz as the lines from other vendors may not have the copper coating on the inside. Tom
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| Flatbob | -- 04-09-2012 @ 7:11 PM |
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Great suggestions on the fuel line & will follow up. Replaced the condenser; it wasn't the problem. Fuel line & carb. next; will see if I'm getting good spark at the plugs also. Thanks for the help/.
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| supereal | -- 04-09-2012 @ 8:49 PM |
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Be sure of what is in your gas tank. There is an epidemic of contaminated gas, particularly with alcohol. It has a problem with "phase separation" when moisture forms a layer in the tank after sitting for a time. It looks like gas, and smells like gas, but will not vaporize enough to allow the engine to run. We have two of these already this year.
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| drkbp | -- 04-10-2012 @ 6:40 AM |
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Flatbob, Be sure the needle valve brass fitting is clear where the fuel line goes into the 97. Just take the fuel line off, unscrew the fitting from the carb and blow it out. You should clear the fuel line from inline filter to carb intake also. Ken in Texas
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| Flatbob | -- 04-12-2012 @ 1:52 PM |
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Am getting fuel to the carb but still won't start. Getting spark to all the plugs but to me it appears very weak; on the order of what static electricity looks like. Is this what would be expected from a 6V system? I have replaced the condenser. I can't even get starter fluid to ignite. Would running a wire from the battery neg. post directly to the coil be helpful in diagnosing this problem?
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| deuce_roadster | -- 04-12-2012 @ 2:54 PM |
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Thoght we were just looking for debris source. Take the entire distrb with coil to someone who can check it on a machine. I didn't see where you had a rebuilt coil but that is a must. Get that whole assembly set up correctly and you should have more then a static electricity sized spark! 6 volts is just fine when everything is as it should be.
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| Flatbob | -- 04-12-2012 @ 3:48 PM |
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The dizzy & coil was gone through & set up on a machine years ago during restoration; as I said the car only has 288 miles on it, could it have gone bad with so few miles on it? Debris doesn't seem to be the issue, as someone suggested I ran another fuel line to a gas can with fresh fuel and got same results.
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| Stroker | -- 04-12-2012 @ 4:06 PM |
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The above advice is good. You should have a big, fat blue spark. The only difference between a 6 volt spark and a 12 volt spark is the ratio of turns between the primary and secondary side of the coil. What makes a "decent" spark is to have adequate amps to the primary side. This is an area that might be worth investigating before you send your coil off to Skip Haney, who will guarantee you have a good long lasting coil, but of course cannot solve any "supply problems", such as aftermarket Chinese points, condensers, OR current loss due to wiring issues.
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| Flatbob | -- 04-12-2012 @ 6:27 PM |
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Must confess am not that knowledgeable about electrical system in an early V8, what comprises the "primary side" of the ignition system & what problems should I look for?
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| TomO | -- 04-13-2012 @ 7:34 AM |
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The primary side of the ignition is from the battery to the ignition switch, to the ballast resister to the coil. Check the voltage to the input of the coil. If it reads battery voltage, the points are open, tap the starter to close the points. The voltage reading should be above 3.6 volts with the points closed. If the voltage is low, check the ballast resister and the ignition switch. Tom
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| Flatbob | -- 04-13-2012 @ 10:02 AM |
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TomO, thanks for the advice, will try what you suggested & let you know the results. Bob
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| supereal | -- 04-13-2012 @ 11:04 AM |
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If it is an original Ford coil, the chances that it is weak are about 99%. The only test that can be done that is definitive is the resistance of the windings. The primary, measured between the terminal that goes to the resistor should show .47 to .51 ohms. The secondary, measured from the same input terminal to the high voltage terminal should read 12,000 to 17,000 ohms. As the two windings are joined at the input terminal, it isn't possible to test for a short between the windings. As I have noted over the years, if you have an original coil, it is time to have it rebuilt or replaced, without exception. In most cases, the difference in starting and operation will be amazing. "Coil testers" are mostly worthless, and even more so, if the coil is not highly heated prior to examination
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| Flatbob | -- 04-13-2012 @ 2:02 PM |
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TomO & Super, I get 6.47V on freshly charged battery, 6.47V across terminals at ignition switch & 2.55V at coil. TomO suggested I should have around 3.26V at the coil; can I draw any conclusions from what I have found? Super, am not sure if it's the original coil or not. The guy that I sent it to told me he had it on his machine and it "looked good" and it fired up immediately when I installed it but that was 10 years ago. Maybe the best thing to do would be to send it to Skip Haney? Thanks for the help. Bob This message was edited by Flatbob on 4-13-12 @ 2:03 PM
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| TomO | -- 04-14-2012 @ 8:22 AM |
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You are dropping more voltage across the ballast resistor than normal. This could be due to extra resistance at the connections at the ballast resistor or a more current due to a defective coil. Measure the resistance across the resistor, it should read a maximum of 1.4 ohms. If you have a Ford Script coil, remove it, and check the area on the bottom. If it has numbers or initials scratched into the phenolic, it was rebuilt by either Skip Haney or Jack Fletcher. If not, have your coil rebuilt. Tom
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| supereal | -- 04-14-2012 @ 11:12 AM |
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It might also have been rebuilt by A&S. I have one of those on my '47, and it works fine. Check the voltage to ground with the input wire from the resistor off the coil. You should read battery voltage. With the coil connected, and one of the sets of points closed, about 3.5 volts. Connect your ohmeter between the wire to the distributor and ground and turn the engine over while you watch the needle. You should see the needle swing over and stay as long as at least one of the point sets is closed. If not, the points are at fault. Voltage is the product of current times resistance, so an increase in resistance or a decrease in current will drop the voltage. Coils present more than just resistance, called reactance, so a simple test for ohms may not tell the story. I'd bet that any Ford coil over 10 years old is weak. I've seen too many to be persuaded otherwise.
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| Flatbob | -- 04-14-2012 @ 1:07 PM |
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Am getting battery voltage at the coil wire when I disconnect the wire from the coil. The coil is original as it has the FORD script on top but have not removed it yet to check bottom side. If I understand TomO, I set my multimeter at 20K and with wires removed from coil terminal I measured .01 which seems remarkably low so wonder if I'm doing it correctly.
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| supereal | -- 04-14-2012 @ 1:15 PM |
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If you check the primary, use the 1X scale. The secondary would use the 20X. An ohmeter will only tell you if the winding is open. Old coils have a waxed paper insulation which disintegrates over time, allowing arcing between windings. A new coil from a vendor such as C&G is less than $100. Buy one, and have your present coil rebuilt to keep as a spare. You won't be sorry.
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| Flatbob | -- 04-14-2012 @ 1:21 PM |
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I'll call Kyle at C&G Monday and get a new coil. Thanks for the help. Bob
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| TomO | -- 04-15-2012 @ 8:50 AM |
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The 1.3 ohm reading must be made on the Rx1 scale. IMHO you would be much better off sending your coil to Skip Haney for rebuilding than spending money for an aftermaket coil. I just went to the online catalog and C & G wants $120 for a rebuilt coil, when you send them your core. Skip wants $83 to rebuild your coil. He usually gets them done pretty fast. http://www.fordcollector.com/coils.htm Tom
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| Robert/Texas | -- 04-16-2012 @ 8:57 AM |
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I recently had a problem with my '34 roadster ('36 engine). I concentrated mostly on electrics as I had left the ignition for about 5 days. After replacing points, condensor, coil, resistor and rechecking everything time and again, I replaced the plug wires including the coil wire. The car has been running great since doing this and starts instantly. It might have been only the coil wire that was defective.
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| Flatbob | -- 04-16-2012 @ 9:56 AM |
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I've reconsidered & am going to send the coil to Skip, shorter turn around time & less money.......and he did a great job on my pumps.
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| supereal | -- 04-16-2012 @ 1:06 PM |
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Most of us have left the ignition on accidently at one time or another. The usual result is that the coil was "cooked", unless you are extraordinaily lucky, and the points were open. When the insulation is overheated, it allows arcing between the windings, resulting in eventual failure, even if it seems to work OK. I'd carry a spare coil if yours was left on.
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