| swmddo | -- 12-23-2011 @ 3:25 PM |
|
Ok, I got the electrical problem fixed (coil, etc.). All of a sudden the transmission is making a bunch of noise that it had not done before. (This is after I had a mechanic do some of the electrical work...hmmmm). He indicated that the tranny was making noise when he was test driving it. He checked the lube in the trans box, and said there were some "metal pieces". He replaced the lube. The noise is very noticeable. At times, when I get the car into 3rd gear, it will smooth out nicely. If I accelerate or decelerate or have to shift to 2nd, the noise comes back. I assume that the transmission needs to be removed to check for major problems. I would opt to remove the engine rather than the back end/torque tube. Would you agree? Is there something else I should check before pulling the engine? Thanks (again) Steve
|
|
| supereal | -- 12-23-2011 @ 4:32 PM |
|
I prefer to roll the rear axle and torque tube back, unless there is a compelling reason to work on the engine. It is not unusual to find metal particles in the oil, particularly if the oil was allowed to get very low. If you decide to have someone rebuild the box, there are good guys, such as Charlie Schwendler in NY state who really know how to do it. Old Ford transmission always leak, and must be checked often to avoid damage.
|
|
| Stroker | -- 12-23-2011 @ 4:40 PM |
|
Boy, given the hassle of draining coolant, removing the radiator and hood, disconnecting the exhaust, fuel, coolant and electrical connections, I'd sure vote for pulling the rear end. You will only have onefluid connection (brake line hose at the front of the torque tube), and a few bolts. Leave the rear spring attached to the axles, pull the wheels and roll her back on a floor jack once you have removed the u-bolts, e-brake cable and u-joint cover and speedo cable. The transmission is light, and once you disconnect the clutch linkage and shifter rods, you can simply lift it up through the floor once you remove the tin cover pan. To me this is a whole lot simpler than pulling the motor.
|
|
| swmddo | -- 12-23-2011 @ 5:03 PM |
|
Thanks! I should also be able to check out the clutch, too, with this approach! Appreciate the insite...I had always removed the rear spring, which I hated to do. This should be easier, as I had dis-remembered the hassle with the radiator, hood, coolant, etc. Steve
|
|
| 40 Coupe | -- 12-24-2011 @ 7:47 AM |
|
Drain the transmission and remove the transmission side plate. you will be able to see the gears and determine the most likely cause. If you continue to drive the car loose or damaged parts in the transmission can do further damage costing possibly much more money to repair. Unless you really know the transmissions, I suggest you get a copy of Mac VanPelts book and read it over several times so you know what your looking at and weather you want to rebuild the transmission yourself. It is not hard but you do need some special tools, the book points out what you need. VANPELT SALES LLC Cincinnati, Ohio 800-299-7496 (in USA) www.flatheadv8.com www.classictransmission.com www.replicamotors.com This message was edited by 40 Coupe on 12-24-11 @ 8:14 AM
|
|
| swmddo | -- 12-24-2011 @ 8:43 AM |
|
Thanks! Steve
|
|
| trjford8 | -- 12-24-2011 @ 5:52 PM |
|
Steve, I have a standard warning when pulling out the transmission from inside the car. COVER ALL THE SEATS,ETC. You don't want to wind up with grease on your upholstery. No matter how hard you try, that darn grease will somehow attach to the upholstery. Old beach towels work the best and you can wash them later.
|
|
| ford38v8 | -- 12-24-2011 @ 9:38 PM |
|
And it is for that very reason that I'd not remove the side cover while the transmission is still in the car. Drain it, replace the plug, and and get it out on the bench before you get curious. Alan
|
|
| swmddo | -- 12-25-2011 @ 5:35 AM |
|
All great recommendations! Thanks! I'll let you know what I find! Steve
|
|
| TomO | -- 12-26-2011 @ 6:41 AM |
|
Grease on the upholstery and the fact that it gives me a better working angle to lift out the trans is why I remove the front seat before removing the floor board and transmission. Tom
|
|
| Old Henry | -- 12-26-2011 @ 7:49 AM |
|
This is the book I used to overhaul my transmission available here for $10.00: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1932-1947-Ford-Transmission-Clutch-Repair-Manual-Book-/170756607352?hash=item27c1e30d78&item=170756607352&pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr This message was edited by Old Henry on 1-2-12 @ 10:26 AM
|
|
| swmddo | -- 12-26-2011 @ 11:37 AM |
|
Thank you all! Steve
|
|
| swmddo | -- 12-29-2011 @ 9:08 AM |
|
OK, I removed the transmission, and looked at it, without actually taking all the gears out. Everything looks in fine shape...no blue metal showing on the gears, everything seems to turn freely with no noise or any kind of binding. My understanding is to use 90W lube, right? And that should be relatively thick, right? I need to check the clutch now, to ensure that there is nothing causing it to slip. I will let you know what I find out after that. If all is OK, I am dumbfounded as to what caused the radical noise. Steve
|
|
| TomO | -- 12-29-2011 @ 10:33 AM |
|
Did your mechanic save the metal pieces that he found? they may provide a clue as to the source of the noise. If not, you may be better off dis-assembling the transmission to check for a bad bearing or synchro. Check your shift arms for loose pin and loose detents. If the 1st/reverse slider is out of position or the second gear does not slide into position, they will cause a very loud noise. Tom
|
|
| trjford8 | -- 12-29-2011 @ 11:04 AM |
|
Check the front and rear bearings. The noise you describe sounds like bearings. The front and rear bearings are the ball type with spacers. If the spacers get loose or go missing(metal in the lubricant)the balls in the bearing come together to make the noise. It's most noticeable on acceleration and deceleration.
|
|
| supereal | -- 12-29-2011 @ 11:15 AM |
|
Usually, it isn't possible to determine the cause of transmission noise without a full disassembly. There are parts that are not visible, such as the roller bearings inside the cluster gear, worn thrust washers, etc. If you have it out, now is the time to have it gone thru. These gear boxes are very old, and it doesn't take much wear, even on the case, to create bad clearances. Over the years, many, if not most, Ford transmissions were neglected and run low on oil. They are tough, but not enough to resist abnormal wear.
|
|
| swmddo | -- 12-29-2011 @ 11:32 AM |
|
Thanks! I will proceed with the full exam... Steve
|
|
| swmddo | -- 12-30-2011 @ 9:28 AM |
|
OK, I've removed the transmission and disassembled the gears, ensuring I keep everything in its proper place. What do I look for in terms of why or how the noise is being made? The little bit of grease/oil left over when the mechanic drained it has some very small particles of metal, but they look like they came from one of the main gears...but none of the gears look "bad". I can see some wear, but nothing that stands out. The bearings on both ends of the main shaft appear to be intact, and move freely, with no metal pieces in the grease. So now, I need to know what to do next, and how to determine what might be wrong. Thanks (again) Steve
|
|
| alanwoodieman | -- 12-30-2011 @ 1:20 PM |
|
take the input shaft bearing and give it a spin, is it noisy? does the bearing look shiney or dull from wear? small shiney particles of metal usually mean bearing wear. Also check the thrust washers on each end of the counter shaft for wear and grooves. if the particles look like brass, I would think syncronizers,look at the gears, excessivly chipped or any broken teeth? In any case, replace all the bearings, thrust washers, and when reinstalling be sure and check clearances. Been there, done that-recently!.
|
|
| swmddo | -- 12-30-2011 @ 2:04 PM |
|
Alan, thanks. The end of the main shaft looks slightly scarred, not shiny. Both sets of bearings are very smooth and turn silently. The cluster gear bearings also turn smoothly. The tiny particles were shiny, not the brass color. The gears all look pretty good - no chipped teeth and no wear on some teeth that is different from others. The thrust washers do look somewhat worn. The synchronizers appear to be intact, with no burrs or any teeth chipped or missing. If what I described above sounds like it could cause the racket that I hear, then I may have this licked. When you said to replace the bearings, did you mean ALL of them, including the cluster gear bearings AND the two main shaft bearings ? With the main shaft not being perfectly smooth, does that mean I need a new one? OR can I have the scarred shaft lightly machined to a smooth surface? Steve This message was edited by swmddo on 12-30-11 @ 3:30 PM
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-02-2012 @ 6:26 AM |
|
I've attached a picture to show you what shape some of the transmission parts are in. This post is the cluster gear...the tooth right in the middle has a slight nick (1 mm). The rest of the gears show wear but nothing like this nick. Could this alone have caused the loud noise? I will attach another picture on next post. Thanks Steve
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-02-2012 @ 6:28 AM |
|
This photo, although it is a bit fuzzy, is the end of the main shaft that goes into the input shaft. Can this be a major problem either causing the noise, or a longer term problem? Thanks Steve
|
|
| Old Henry | -- 01-02-2012 @ 9:40 AM |
|
Inasmuch as you have not found any real obvious cause of a loud noise in your transmission I would turn my attention to the U-joint that could, and most typically, is the noise causer. How is your U-joint? BTW, given the effort to remove and disassemble your transmission, it would sure pay to replace any part that seems worn or is cheap to replace. You can browse a list of those parts at Vanpelt's here: http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/trans-partsprices-pg1.htm If you PM me with your email address I'll email the 32-47 Ford Transmission Manual to you in PDF that you can browse and read for the information that's there. (If my PM doesn't work just email me at Craig@DisabilityLawyerUtah.com) Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.) This message was edited by Old Henry on 1-2-12 @ 9:44 AM
|
|
| TomO | -- 01-02-2012 @ 10:41 AM |
|
Steve, I would start looking around for a good used transmission. That cluster gear looks like it has enough damage that it will get worse and cause more damage. You can probably pick up a good used transmission for about the cost of the cluster gear. You description of the noise is the same noise I heard when a tooth broke off of the main drive gear. I would also check the detent on the first/reverse shift fork. It could cause the noise and the damage seen in your photo. Tom
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-02-2012 @ 11:08 AM |
|
Thanks to both of you! Steve
|
|
| Stroker | -- 01-02-2012 @ 12:22 PM |
|
Steve: I'm not sure if buying a used transmission is a safer bet than trying to buy parts, but I would totally agree with TomO that your transmission shows serious overall damage. All the visible parts exhibit pitting from the normal shedding of metal that has been allowed to recirculate. Your photos are mute testimony to the need for all of us to periodically drain and refill the trans and rear axle, not because the oil wears out, but because that is the only way to get rid of the inevitable debris that accumulates through normal wear. Dan
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-02-2012 @ 12:54 PM |
|
Thanks, Dan. The more I look at some of the parts, the more wear that I "think" I see. The problem I see with a used tranny is that I might end up with some of the same problems...at least needing to replace some bearings, washers, etc. Right now, the cluster gear and main shaft (along with the washers, spacers, etc.) need to be replaced, I believe. Steve
|
|
| Old Henry | -- 01-02-2012 @ 1:31 PM |
|
I had a "funny noise" in my transmission so took it out and peeked inside and this is what I saw. Any sign of problems? Steve, I thought your transmission looked pretty good compared to mine. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.) This message was edited by Old Henry on 1-2-12 @ 1:43 PM
|
|
| Old Henry | -- 01-02-2012 @ 1:45 PM |
|
OK. Jokes over. It wasn't just a "funny noise." I was actually driving my car without 1st or reverse. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.) This message was edited by Old Henry on 1-2-12 @ 2:55 PM
|
|
| Old Henry | -- 01-02-2012 @ 1:50 PM |
|
Here are a couple of new cluster gears and a sliding gear for $80.00 if you're interested: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=1947+ford+gear&_sacat=0&_sop=10&_odkw=1947+ford&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313 Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-02-2012 @ 1:59 PM |
|
Thanks...but my cluster gear has 28 teeth vs. the 29. Is there anything unique that I should be aware of with regard to that cluster gear? Steve
|
|
| Old Henry | -- 01-02-2012 @ 3:18 PM |
|
Darn. That would have been nice to get the right cluster gear for that price. Only other source I know is VanPelt here for way way more: http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/trans-partsprices-pg2.htm Maybe your cluster gear ain't that bad. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
|
|
| Old Henry | -- 01-02-2012 @ 3:29 PM |
|
If you are considering replacing your cluster gear just keep in mind that all of your gears are helical whereas there are some cluster gears on which the 1st and reverse gear are not. Be sure to get the right one. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
|
|
| alanwoodieman | -- 01-02-2012 @ 3:41 PM |
|
these old Ford tran are tough and a few rough teeth on 1st and reverse are normal, hard to see in the picture, but are you teeth chipped or are they "peeling off" like in layers? if so I would find a replacement for the cluster and 1st/reverse slider gear and the reverse spur gear. I would replace all the bearings and the cluster gear bearing shaft, that is unlees you like to remove your trans again. Peeling off happens when you don't have the trans all the way in gear before releasing the clutch, chipping is uasually the result of not stopping all the way before moving into 1st or reverse
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-03-2012 @ 4:45 AM |
|
Thanks guys. I am in a real quandary now, regarding the cluster gear. How do I know that the previous owner had the right part numbers/gears in the transmission ? Is there only ONE way they would all work? Specifically, 68-7113 is 6.59" long, but is referenced by 8M-7113 and 51A-7113 (which are both 6.70" long. Are these interchangeable? I assume also that the last gear (either 14 or 15 teeth) depends on what rear-end you have ? Is there a problem if you interchange them? I am more concerned about the length of the cluster gear, but maybe it is because one of those types uses TWO rear thrust washers, while the other one uses only ONE. The last thing I need to do is replace parts that are not correct for what I have (assuming the previous owner had it set up right). Is there some manual that states what parts ALL are supposed to be in the transmission ? The Green Bible is not clear. Thanks Steve
|
|
| 40 Coupe | -- 01-03-2012 @ 5:37 AM |
|
The main shaft under the front bearing is bad, I suggest you change this shaft as well as ALL the bearings, at least. Once metal particles are introduced into the transmission they do damage to all of the other bearings, even though they may not have failed yet and the damage is not apparent, you do not want to suffer early bearing failure and more damage shortly after reassembly. Your cluster has four indents on the rear face and the replacement clusters have two protruding tangs they use a different rear thrust washer that is two piece. The number of teeth on the cluster front gear and the matching input gear have to add up to 44 so if you change to a cluster with more teeth the input has to be changed to match. allenwoodieman is very correct about the cluster. The gear can be touched up with a dremmel to clean up burrs if that is the problem, also the syncro outer ring develops burrs on the front and rear ends that can also be removed. I again suggest you contact VanPelt about gears and how they have to match. He has the thrust washers and if when reassembling the tolerance is out he can help with thicker thrust washers sometimes.
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-03-2012 @ 7:53 AM |
|
That's what I needed to know...thanks. I have already ordered Mac Van Pelt's book, and have talked with him regarding what does and does not need replacing. I guess I am concerned that there is no one (easy) place to look where the parts are described by number and what CAN and CANNOT go with others. I will be getting the replacement parts from Mac. Steve
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-04-2012 @ 4:40 AM |
|
40 Coupe: Thanks. The Cluster gear I currently have (that needs to be replaced) has 28 teeth on the front gear. The input drive has 15 teeth (from previous owner)...doesn't add up to 44. What is the potential problem, if any, with this arrangement? Steve
|
|
| alanwoodieman | -- 01-04-2012 @ 5:47 AM |
|
those are mismatched gears, the input should be 16 teeth, I know the 15 tooth input goes with a 29 tooth cluster gear. I have a set of the lower ratio gears from a good transmission. I may also have a 28 tooth cluster but I don't have a 16 tooth input shaft. Also there are two 16 tooth input shafts (just to further confuse the issue) the one for a later model 27 tooth cluster gear, this one measures across the gears at 2.44". The one you want measures at 2.38 ? or close.
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-04-2012 @ 10:24 AM |
|
Alan, thanks. Can't imagine the frustration with these different sizes...even the difference in inches is so small, it would be hard to tell. I guess that is why we end up doing this work ourselves, because if we left it to someone else, they may not have a clue. I am going to replace the 28-tooth cluster and get a 16-tooth main drive gear. Thanks for the offer, though. Steve
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-08-2012 @ 5:39 AM |
|
Hi All, I got the Van Pelt tranny book, and it is excellent (shameless plug). I also found the front main bearing and oil baffle on the main drive gear were messed up, with one side of the bearing's small ball bearings worn down and were almost seized...that was most likely the noise. The oil baffle had a small hole in it near the edge and it was not flat...have NO idea how that could have happened all of a sudden...it didn't have this problem before the mechanic had it. At any rate, the inside rear of the case where the rear thrust washer goes with the cluster gear has some concentric grooves, as did the washer. I am replacing the washer, but what issues will I have if I don't somehow machine that smooth? Is there a practical way to do it (i.e. not expensive), or should I just not worry about it? Thanks Steve
|
|
| supereal | -- 01-08-2012 @ 1:45 PM |
|
Have a good machine shop look at the case before you reassemble the transmission. Lots of damage is done by oil starvation over the years caused by leakage. Chances are the case isn't worn so badly that new thrust washers won't cover it, but check the gear end play to see that it doesn't exceed .020". Ideal is .004-.008. Replacement main bearings usually come with a cover on both sides. I remove the inner side cover to assure lubrication. There is a "slinger" (baffle)on each end of the mainshaft, next to the bearings. These are often installed backwards. The raised collar should face the bearing to provide clearance so the slinger can work, and not block the oil. Henry favored slingers over seals in many places, which assured Fords would often leak like a sieve.
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-08-2012 @ 2:33 PM |
|
will do! The case looks good, it came from a '46, based on the imprinted number. One of the slinger was damaged, so I am replacing every washer, bearing, and some of the shafts. Thanks for the info on the tolerances.. Steve
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-11-2012 @ 2:49 PM |
|
Regarding the end-play in the cluster gear with NEW washers...it appears to be about .06". That means I need to find a washer/spacer that is about .055 or so. Are there any places to find hardened steel washers/spacers that would work, without having to have one specially made? Could I use stainless steel washer(s) if I found the right size? Thanks Steve This message was edited by swmddo on 1-12-12 @ 4:53 AM
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-19-2012 @ 2:14 PM |
|
OK, this is really strange. The cluster gear I had was a 28-24-18-14 gear, as is the NEW one I just got. the OLD main drive gear had 15 teeth, the NEW one has 16. My understanding was that the total had to be 44. Well, it doesn't work. With the NEW cluster and NEW main drive, there is no way they can fit. I can get the cluster gear in without the main drive, and the main shaft and cluster turn freely. I can also get the main shaft and main drive in without the cluster, and they move smoothly. Unless the cluster gears have a different diameter with the same number of teeth, I am stumped. Steve
|
|
| alanwoodieman | -- 01-19-2012 @ 2:41 PM |
|
remember the previous post about there being a 16 tooth input shaft from a later trans that looks OK but will not work with the cluster that you have? Is there a part number on the new input shaft? 8CM? Measure across the 16 tooth part of the input with a micrometer, if it measures 2.44 it is for a later trans.
|
|
| swmddo | -- 01-20-2012 @ 5:18 AM |
|
alanwoodieman, That is exactly what happened. The supplier sent me the wrong main drive...he is correcting it at no charge, and was very apologetic. The problem with lots of these parts, new or old, is that there is no part number on them. So, lots of times, people scrounge around for parts that "seem to work", which they do,....for awhile, and then big problems arise. Steve
|
|
| EFV-8 Club Forum : | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum |
| Topic: | https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=18&Topic=4138 |