Topic: Clarity on 35-36 Pickup Book

Texas40	-- 12-04-2011 @ 8:27 AM
	To members of the V-8 Club: As your president for 2011 I feel it is necessary to add some additional thoughts to the postings on the forum concerning the 35-36 pickup book. The board decision to halt the project was made on many factors some of which have not been shared. The board acted to halt the project based on the expense projection to complete this book. Using expenses presented to date plus estimated expenses to complete, this book project would have been the most expensive book the V-8 Club has ever undertaken. Couple that large expense with the perceived limited market and it simply made no sense to proceed. The board did not anticipate the level of expense to complete at the outset of the project or it would not have been approved in the first place. I hope this statments clears up some of the open issues regarding the decision not to proceed. Bob York
jerry.grayson	-- 12-04-2011 @ 4:04 PM
	Bob, I must respectfully disagree with some of what you say about the 35-36 pickup book.I do not think that our book will be the most expensive book that the V8 club has published. Will you give me the costs of the other books? We made it known when we agreed to research and write the book that we were going to have to go to the BFRC for information and that we live 800+ miles away.So, some members of the BOD did know about travel expense. Again, Bob,no notice or discussion about cost cutting with us was ever attempted.
Lawson Cox	-- 12-04-2011 @ 6:11 PM
	RESPONSE TO POSTINGS ON WEB SITES REGARDING 35-36 FORD PICKUP BOOK While I have been following this thread on all sites where it has been posted, I have remained silent up to this point. I have decided that now is the appropriate time for me to put my 2¢ into the pot. Hold onto your seats folks. There is an old appellate court case in Georgia where one side did not raise a point of law in the trial court and attempted to raise it for the first time at the appellate level. While this is not a direct quote of the courts decision, it summarizes it nicely. “One must discharge all of its guns in the first encounter. It cannot reserve further shots for use in some future reencounter.” Well, I have withheld my comments until now, and am letting it all hang out as it were. One caveat, however, I reserve the right to be heard in rebuttal to any statements or postings made by or on behalf of the Board as the battle is not over, only the first volley has been fired. Very brief history. I received a phone call, out of the blue, from Wayne Deitrich, SE Director, EFV8CA wherein he stated bluntly that the Board had decided to abandon The 35-36 Ford Pickup Book. He advised that he was calling to let me know of that decision before I heard it from someone else. Needless to say, I was thunderstruck and flummoxed. Later I received a copy of the summary of the minutes of the Board meeting where this decision was made, hoping that would clear things up somewhat. It only added to the confusion. The pertinent part of the summary of the minutes reads “There was a lengthy discussion of the 35-36 pickup book being written by Jerry Grayson and Lawson Cox. After considering the rising costs and the limited appeal, the Board concluded the book would not be profitable to produce and voted to cancel it. (Emphasis added) Now, the EFV8CA is a not for profit corporation. Correct? The stated purpose of the club is to document and preserve early V8 Ford history and early Ford vehicles as Henry built them. Correct? (Source: By-Laws of the Early Ford V8 Club of America, page 18 of the 2011 National Directory. The same information is posted on the Club web site, www.earlyfordV8.com. ) Query? When did the club become a corporation for profit? No record of such. Did the Board ever discuss such with the membership? No record of such. Have they notified the membership of such a decision? No record of such. Have they notified the IRS of such decision? If not, why not? No record of such. When the decision was made by the Board to write the book, and they approached Jerry and me to write the book, the Board had, or in the exercise of due diligence could/should have had basically the same facts then as it has now. Why then did they make the decision to write it if it did not appear there would be any interest in such a book? Responses to these postings show that there are a heck of a lot more pickups out there than the Board ever thought about, or than we realized, and all owners are crying for information on what is or what is not correct. Many are not members of the EFV8CA. Several have never heard of it. It is obvious from our research that early Ford pickups, 35-36’s especially, are the most poorly documented vehicles produced by Ford. In our research we have discovered there is minimal documentation, even in the Benson Ford Research Center, of these early trucks, especially the 35’s. Most of our information has been gathered by inspecting old trucks wherever we can find them. Much has been gathered from dozens of pickup owners we learned about through the web. We have looked at many of these old trucks in barns, sheds, grown up fields with trees growing through the truck. If that isn’t considered “research” what is? Hey, that is hazardous duty. While the National Club tries to poor mouth itself to its membership, and in essence uses that rational to terminate the 35-36 Pickup book project, it is my understanding, based on highly reliable sources, the club has in excess of $400,000.00 sitting in bank accounts in cash. The Board has denied repeated requests for an outside audit of the club finances. The President refused to discuss the club finances at the Auburn meet President’s meeting. Again, based on reliable sources, we understand the IRS is breathing down the club’s neck concerning its assets. Is the Board disclosing those facts to the membership? If not, why not? I understand it has been discussed at length in recent Board meeting as to how to get rid of some of this money before the IRS comes after them wearing hob nail boots and bearing firearms. If the club is in fact so concerned and dedicated on writing books to record and preserve the history of the Early Ford V8 vehicles, why don’t they expend some of that reported $400,000.00 to complete the book on 35-36 Ford pickups? A drop in the bucket considering the club’s apparent financial status. If the BOD is so concerned about frugality and preserving Ford history, what do they have to say about publishing the infamous Early Ford V8 Club Cookbook? Yes an Early Ford Cookbook, with the picture of a Model T on the front cover no less!! Several thousand dollars down the tube on that gem. And a picture of a Model T on an Early V8 book? ‘Ya gotta be kidding. (Nope, its true folks.) Maybe they reasoned in their own minds that “Hey, Henry put out a charcoal camping stove, and briquettes, which means someone is cooking on ‘em. Why not publish a cook book and cash in on that market? (Humor intended.) The 35-36 Pickup Book is probably 2/3 of the way finished and several thousand dollars have been expended in legitimate expenses thus far. The figure of $10,000.00 is the Board’s good faith estimated figure to complete the book, with an estimated completion date of May, 2013. The authors are in general agreement on that assessment. In attempts to document as closely as possible what the expense on the 35-36 Pickup Book would be as compared to other club books, especially the 35-36 Ford book and the 37 Book, we asked of our S.E. Director what the club expended on formatting those books and printing costs. We wanted to see if our figures were in line with what they had expended on other books. We were flatly refused any assistance on costs of those books. How were/are we to know how closely we are coming to expenses incurred on other books. To abandon the book would be to throw good money down the toilet, not to mention the club’s total disregard for hundreds if not thousands of hours spent in research by the authors and contributors on behalf of the club without so much as a thank you? Speaks highly of the club doesn’t it? How is this going to play out with future Authors? I have read with interest the recent posting that Bob York, National President of the EFV8CA made on the EFV8CA website concerning this matter. His post adds absolutely nothing new to the discussion. It simply states, in perhaps slightly more flowerful language, that the Board doesn’t think there is enough interest in the book to where the club could make any money, so the book has been abandoned, thus once again reinforcing the prevailing “for profit” attitude of the Board. I simply do not believe the statement that the 35-36 Ford Pickup Book would be the most expensive book ever published by the National Club. I am calling BS on that one. Prove that statement Bob. Lawson
MG	-- 12-04-2011 @ 7:17 PM
	Lawson, I'm sure you intended to post the Club web site as: www.earlyfordV8.org. Clicking on the web site you posted takes you to a web site which is For Sale......MG $400,000.00!???
alanwoodieman	-- 12-04-2011 @ 7:18 PM
	you have brought up some serious things that need to be addressed by the BOD to the true "owners" of the V8 Club-THE MEMBERSHIP of which I have been for almost 40 years. What about it pres?
MG	-- 12-04-2011 @ 7:32 PM
	I would like see Lawson's response published in the V8 Times. Jerry, v8teditor?
Lawson Cox	-- 12-04-2011 @ 8:06 PM
	My bad.You are correct, it is www.earlyfordv8.org. Needless to say I have been under quite a strain recently with horrible back pains, some of which may have been from the knife in the back by the EFV8CA (LOL) Seriously, it has been rough, steroid injections, pain pills muscle relaxers; and this added to it all hasn't helped. This message was edited by Lawson Cox on 12-4-11 @ 8:17 PM
Lawson Cox	-- 12-04-2011 @ 10:04 PM
	It is not clear whether you, MG, are talking about the web site you reached in error due to my typo, being for sale for 400K or whether you, MG, are questioning me on the statement about the $400,000.00 cash in the clubs coffers. The $400,000.00 in the clubs accounts is not a typo, that is actual cash on hand in banks. Let someone on the board prove me wrong. I am hereby demanding an immediate outside independent auditing of all of the EFV8CA accounting records as well as all of the clubs records pertaining to book sales and copies of the minutes of the board meetings pertaining to the issues in question. I feel the membership should be invited to name the independent auditing firm, not the Board. After all, we have had enough of the Foxes guarding the hen house in this club for far too long. This message was edited by Lawson Cox on 12-4-11 @ 10:11 PM
MG	-- 12-04-2011 @ 10:39 PM
	Lawson, It's the $400K the Club has in it's coffers that I question with amazement. Sorry for any confusion here. Do you think that maybe this sum is being held in abeyance to be used for litigation purposes at some future date - a war chest? BTW - My heart goes out to you with respect to your back pain. My back went out several years ago and I have never fully recovered. I have never experienced pain so severe. I'm firmly convinced that the primary purpose/function of the sciatic nerve is inflict the most severe pain known to mankind. This message was edited by MG on 12-4-11 @ 10:59 PM
JM	-- 12-05-2011 @ 6:30 AM
	A message to Bob York and all EFV8C/A BOD members, As a long time club member who purchases every Restoration Book this club publishes, regardless of whether I own these vehicles or not, I am asking you folks to go back and reconsider this decision that IMHO was the wrong decision. Thank you! John Mason JM
Stroker	-- 12-05-2011 @ 8:26 AM
	As an older member (I first joined in 79),I consider all the EV8CA publications to be "keepers". These great reference books, along with The V8 Times have provided a documented basis for decisions ranging from judging standards to restoration guidance. As a result, EV8CA standards, and collective Club member knowledge is the accepted "Gold Standard". As Supereal has frequently implied: trucks in the 30's and 40's were generally not purchased new with any anticipation of preservation. Trucks were purchased to be put to work. As a result, there are very few original un-molested examples to use as a template. This makes well-researched documentation both difficult and highly desirable. I've only been a Forum participant for three years, but I've seen a lot of truck questions go unanswered because not many of our existing members can remember what they were like when they were new, and there is precious little accessible research information. Perhaps the Board would consider completion of this book to be a continuation of the fine Club tradition of documentation, rather than simply a quick return on investment (which of course it isn't). The popular business mindset of quarterly returns to please markets is not appropriate when preserving history. I find it commendable that our organization is on sound financial footing, especially in these economic times. I also believe we need to recognize the "greater purpose" of facilitating preservation.
tudorbilll	-- 12-06-2011 @ 12:30 PM
	As a long time member and owner of a 35 pickup. Perhaps the Board would consider completion of this book to be a continuation of the fine Club tradition of documentation, rather than simply a quick return on investment.Which is about the domest thing this club could should be doing ,is that in the by laws making money? I think we have the wrong guy steering the ship
cpipp01@aol.com	-- 12-06-2011 @ 4:53 PM
	I would like to say as a long time V8 Club member and a V8 Club book customer ( I have purchased 10 books from the V8 club 9 are hardbound )if the club is concerned about cost maybe have a pre publication offer with payment in full but NOT at reduced cost this would give the Club a true count on the interest of the book. I can understand the Clubs concern as to how fast costs can get out of hand and also the authors feelings that there hard work was in vain, maybe adding 37 trucks would increase interest and the financial viability of the project. I would send a check tomorrow if I knew I would get a hardbound copy of the BOOK within the next 8 to 10 months. Lets Find a way.
Stroker	-- 12-06-2011 @ 7:18 PM
	I believe that there is more interest in commercial books than most of us realize. The fact is, as previously mentioned is that today the best selling products from Ford, GM & Chrysler are light trucks. When our vintage trucks were built, they only appealed to farmers, merchants and craftsmen who needed to haul stuff. Because of this, they were never regarded in the same light as our current generation who consider F-150's to be credible "rides". The current generation of F-150 owners who wish to return to the "roots" of Ford pickups have a nice inventory of "builders" out there, as our generation has concentrated on, and removed from circulation most passenger cars. Unfortunately, there is very little documentation available for them to restore them to EV8CA standards, or "as Henry Built Them". The interest, plus the availability of candidate "builders" in my humble opinion represent a significant growth area in terms of new restorations. If every Ford that could be restored, was restored, then where is the future of our organization beyond simply "getting together"? We need new, younger blood, and I believe the pickups appeal to many of our potential recruits.
34Pha&35Cab	-- 12-12-2011 @ 10:04 AM
	Early Ford V8 Club .................... As a very long time member (mid 60s), I am encouraging you to reconsider publishing the 1935-36 Ford Pick-Up Book. You are using principals of operating a For-Profit Business to run this Non-Profit Organization. The money that you have made ($400,000.00) over the years, should be used to educate Flatheaders, more about our favorite vehicles. What more better way, to teach, than publishing a good informative book ? If you want to run a For-Profit business, you had better get used to paying income-taxes. Please reconsider ! Thank you, Fl&WVMike (MIKE BURCH)
bonusbuilt1950	-- 12-12-2011 @ 4:50 PM
	I agree with the above statement 100%. THe book should be published. These people have spent alot of time and energy to the project, only to be shot down? As you'll see in postings here and other sites, your decision was extremely premature. Your explanation here was very vague. In my opinion, your bias against trucks in general is showing thru. I had joined a local chapter here in Conn. a few years ago with the intention of becoming a national member, but the reception I recieved here on the local level after the group realized I was a truck owner, really soured me. My truck is stock, not a hot rod. Trucks are a part of Flathead history. Take some of that money in your bank account and get the book done. Remember, The IRS has deemed you non profit and can revoke that status at any time. Come down off your throne and listen to the rank and file member and do the right thing. Also remember, the members elected you to your posts and can also un-elect you! Barry 50 F-1
Django	-- 12-14-2011 @ 12:01 PM
	Perhaps it's too late for Mr York to do anything, but I would urge the President-elect to take a stand and reinstate this project for the good of the club and the preservation of our history in regards to the V8 Fords. While our '36 fleet doesn't have any trucks per se (unless you count our sedan delivery), I can see this book as being a good companion to the current 35/36 book. As an officer in a non-profit organization, we often spend monies on projects that we don't expect to make a profit on or even to break even... which is fine if it is for the greater good or it supports our mission. I believe this is a similar case. What does that say to members who own any year pickup, to hear that the organization doesn't feel they warrant having the same information as the car owners? Plus, don't discount the number of non-members who purchase these books. I bought the 2nd printing 35/36 book long before I even considered joining the EFV8 club. Maybe as a first year member, and as part of the younger generation (41) that the EFV8 club has begun to actively recruit, my opinion will matter little. I hope that is not the case though. Also note, that there is a heated discussion going on at Fordbarn.com
1934 Ford	-- 12-15-2011 @ 6:41 AM
	Very hot topic with lots of angry comments. What I've not seen is an actual cost of this book's production. What is the cost of the proposed book and costs of the previous publications? We're all upset, but none of us has the cost figures that the BOD had. We waited for years for the 1933-34 book and others, and they turned out to be worth the wait. I understand that there are more 33-34 cars than 35-36 trucks and realize much of the information might already be in other books. Does that mean it might be a smaller book than the 1932 Book and the 33-34 Book? There is much we don't know about the new book at this time and getting our shorts all in a knot is a mistake without the facts. I'm a EFV8 member and a 35 Ford Pickup owner who would love the finished book, but not at all costs. There has not been enough in the way of facts to cast judgement on the BOD and our officers. Are both sides willing to give dollar figures on the cost of these books and histories of cost recovery through sales?
41-42fordadvisor	-- 12-15-2011 @ 1:26 PM
	Concerning the current debate about the 35-36 pickup book being cancelled by the Early Ford V-8 Club Board of Directors. Why couldn't the book be expanded to cover all Ford trucks from 35-36. Sedan Delivery, Panel Trucks, and trucks over half ton. Adding these would attract a wider range of truck owners and also help to sell more of these books. This could hopefully make the book more profitable. I don't own a 35-36 Ford pickup and probably never will. I too was looking forward to this book and would have bought the book. Since I bought all the other club books covering 1932 to 1951 even though I only own one early Ford V-8 car.
supereal	-- 12-15-2011 @ 4:32 PM
	I yield to no one on the interest in books on the early Fords. My collection of books by my late friend Lorin Sorinsen is ample proof of that. My hope is that someone, or some organization, willl pick up his mantle and undertake the publication of complete and well reasoned books on Fords of all sorts. To condemn the actions of the Club in this instance seems shortsighted and destructive.
trjford8	-- 12-16-2011 @ 7:23 PM
	Bob, you are certainly right about this issue being destructive to the club. Airing this issue on the internet is the most shortsighted decision I have ever seen by the two authors. When the project was cancelled they should have taken a deep breath, waited until they calmed down and came back to the board with a new plan. They should have come back to the board and asked what they could do to revive the project. They will soon find out the costs of trying to do this project themselves. If they need backers people may be reluctant to get involved. Backers may shy away for fear that if it doesn't work they may be the next subject on the internet. There have always been problems and issues with club books, but they manage to get resolved. To my knowledge every book that was ever proposed has been printed by the club. I'm sure some people are disappointed that this book will not proceed. Sometimes the board must make decisions, popular or unpopular, that they feel is in the best interest of the V-8 Club. People throw rocks at the directors and complain about their decisions, but never volunteer themselves for the position. There's a way to change the system if they don't like it, but I suspect they don't want rocks thrown at them. I guess it's easier to to be the "thrower". This message was edited by trjford8 on 12-16-11 @ 7:31 PM
TomO	-- 12-17-2011 @ 8:08 AM
	I am sure that the Club will survive the attacks inspired by this subject. The Internet has become the place to voice opinions, because it is easy to do and there are few restrictions on the words used. Bob York posted a reasonable explanation of why the Board voted to halt the project. The attacks on him and the Board continued, because it is easier to complain than try to work out a solution. As long as we recognize this, we can listen to the complaints or ignore them, The majority of the club members will continue to send in their dues, attend meets and try to help out fellow club members. This is what makes the club function and it will continue on in spite of the the Internet's ability to spread discontent. Tom
keith oh	-- 12-17-2011 @ 8:08 AM
	THANK YOU Supereal and Trjford8 for bringing some common sence into this discussion. I have a hard time feeling that the BOD, all at once, decided to drop this project without a lot of consideration. I am sure they will re consider if they feel it is for the good of the V/8 club and it's members.
JM	-- 12-17-2011 @ 8:39 AM
	I have read every post that has been made on this subject on all of the websites that I frequent. All I will say is I sure hope the existing EFV8 Club officers will make a statement in the V8 Times or by letter to all the regional groups fully explaining their reasons for abandoning the '35-'36 Pickup Truck Book. I would also like to see some type of response relative to this $400,000.00 in club funds I keep reading about. I would say that if these issues are not clarified, then the reputation of the EFV8C/A will be permanently damaged in the eyes and mind of this long term member. JM
alanwoodieman	-- 12-19-2011 @ 8:31 AM
	here is a question from the owner of a 36 pick-up that maybe the book would have answered-we know the truck to a 36-but it has a lot of 35 parts on the front end-one fender, the hood, grill sh*ll-question did 36 fender have a rolled reveal similar to the outer lip of the fender around the opening for the bumper braces? and 35 did not?
TomO	-- 12-19-2011 @ 1:35 PM
	When you consider that the Club has to pay for more than 10,000 magazines every other month, $400,000 doesn't seem like a lot of money, more like about 1.5 years worth of expenses for the V-8 Times. Then you have all of the other books and their expenses, meeting expenses, etc Tom
MG	-- 12-22-2011 @ 10:35 AM
	This article may be pertinent to this discussion/thread. See: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2011/10/13/horseless-carriage-clubs-non-profit-status-threatened/?refer=news
nelsb01	-- 12-22-2011 @ 11:45 AM
	TomO has a much better assessment to the issue than this article.
JM	-- 12-30-2011 @ 8:34 AM
	TomO's assessment is an opinion based on an assumption. The EFV8 Club collects yearly dues that should cover the yearly expenses he mentions. The $400k sounds like a separate kitty/account to me. As a member of a supposedly 'non profit organization' I would really like to see a fully detailed disclosure of the clubs yearly income, all of it's expenses and account holdings. Questions on the '35-'36 PU Book decision and club financial position will be good questions to be asked and hopefully honestly answered at the President's meetings during the 2012 National Meets. JM
34Pha&35Cab	-- 01-17-2012 @ 5:50 PM
	How many EFV8C members would rather see their dues go towards building a hugh bank account, to end up ????, than to have the money educate ourselves, through quality books, published by the EFV8C ? Where is this $400,000.00 going to end up anyway ? 34Pha&35Cab
deuce_roadster	-- 01-17-2012 @ 8:57 PM
	I have been a member since 1973 so I'm not the oldest old timer but I have been in the club a long time. I think a lot more needs to be known about the 400k figure. Is it genuine, how would anyone but the National treasurer know? Our Non profit RG ends up paying IRS taxes on carry over money. If the 400k figure is true, it would be important to know when during the year that amount of money was in the bank. If it was the end of the year that would be different then if it was from the first quarter and large expenses such as printing the V8 Times and postage for the year, insurance for RGs and National Meets would be coming due etc. It is a fine line to walk to run something as big as the National Club as a non profit I am sure. I would think minimal carryover would be the goal but if it is 400k that is a bit excessive. And if it is 400k being carried over then I think it is encumbant of the directors to use the money for the club instead of trying to amass a huge nest egg. So I would be of the mind that even if printing the Pickup book would "lose" money, we should do it. The money is "made" to be used for the members. Even if there seems to be a low number of these trucks in the club right now, we have no way of knowing what future members might be interested in. The printed resources of this club is what is going to save these vehicles that are left. The existing books, ones on the way like the 40 book and the V8 Times are fabuolus resources full of knowledge gleaned over the club's liftime. We should continue adding to it with books such as the Pickup book. It goes to the core reasons this club exists. My 2 cents.
MG	-- 01-18-2012 @ 12:27 PM
	I would take satisfaction in the knowledge that Jerry Grayson and Lawson Cox were well compensated by the Club for the work they did and that Jerry Windle is paid a decent salary plus a yearly bonus for the excellent job he does with the V8 Times. Seems to me the Club can at least afford this.

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