| Stroker | -- 12-04-2009 @ 4:03 PM |
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I sort of grew up with Dad's 38 wagon, but by the time I was old enough to become a V8 fan, he had changed the motor a couple of times. My brother (7 years older than I) say's Dad ordered it with a "commercial option". He said that it came with a 24-stud motor. The car had a 444 rear-end ratio, and a Columbia OD. My question is: Did this motor have an aluminum intake manifold? Dad used it to pull a two-horse trailer in the mountainous areas of So. Cal, and I am trying to put it back the way it was. I believe the 21-stud had the aluminum manifold, but I'm not sure about the "optional" later 24 stud 221. I have a 38 book on order, but I'd like to hear from the Forum. I currently have a 59A (I think this is motor number 5 or 6). My 59A manifold has a small external leak in the heat-riser and I have several 59A cast iron manifolds that I can replace it with. If it was supposed to have an aluminum manifold to start with, I would probably opt to obtain one.
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| ford38v8 | -- 12-04-2009 @ 4:46 PM |
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Stroker, the 24 stud engine was not an option in 1938. It was originally intended to be job # 1, but sales of the 1937 Ford had fallen off, so the 24 stud was not initially introduced as a model year change, but became available as the 21 stud engines were used up, and could have happened at different times in different assembly plants. A cast iron intake manifold would have been available at the dealerships, but there wouldn't have been a reason to change from the stock aluminum manifold. A "commercial option", as you state, would have to be fully documented to avoid a deduction on the Concourse. The differential ratio would have been determined with the ordering of the Columbia, and installed in the Columbia factory. A 4.11 or 4.44 ratio would be normal for a Columbia, I believe. Alan
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| Stroker | -- 12-04-2009 @ 4:52 PM |
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Alan: Fortunately, I still have the original dealer bill of sale, and the car was assembled in Long Beach, CA. I'll see if there is anything that might justify a 24 stud. I do believe that an aluminum manifold is correct. I don't have one, so I will probably put it on a parts wanted post. Thanks!
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| trjford8 | -- 12-04-2009 @ 5:50 PM |
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Stroker, according to the 38-39 book the 38 passenger cars had 24 stud motors beginning Dec. 7, 1937.The 21 stud motors were then used as service replacement motors and for industrial use through 10-4-38. The book does state that passengers cars used the aluminum intake manifold.The cast iron manifold was used on trucks, but it could be ordered through the Ford parts and placed on a passenger car. Technically the woodie was considered a commercial vehicle, so I think either manifold could be correct.My information comes from page 4-32 and page 4-37 of the 38-39 book. This message was edited by trjford8 on 12-4-09 @ 5:52 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 12-04-2009 @ 11:08 PM |
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Tom, with all due respect, I must disagree with your interpretation of the facts found in the 38-39 Book. While it does say that 24 stud engines were of 100% production in December 1937, that only means that no more 21 stud engines were to be cast for car production. In fact, and as also reported in the same book, 21 stud engine/transmission assemblies carried serial numbers up to mid September of 1938. It must be understood that an engine/transmission assembly did not receive a serial number until it passed the engine break-in testing. This could represent quite a delay from casting to serial number. The end result is that 21 and 24 stud engines were mixed in production at the assembly line. Stroker, you don't need to justify your 24 stud engine. A cast iron manifold, however, should have documentation to avoid a Concourse point penalty. Alan
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| trjford8 | -- 12-05-2009 @ 7:59 AM |
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Al, the book does say that the 21 stud motor was produced through 10-4-38. Those motors were used for industrial use and for service replacement(for those early cars 32-37). I don't see anywhere in the book that says they continued to use the 21 stud motors in passenger cars until the supply was used up (wouldn't there have been a factory letter telling the assembly plants to use up the remaining 21 stud motors in the passenger cars?). It simply states that as of 12-7-37 ,the 24 stud motor was 100% of new vehicle production. Many of those 21 stud motors and transmissions that were produced went overseas(England, Australia,etc) or to Canada and would have had a production number when shipped. Many of the NOS 21 stud motors that showed up in the 70's came from Canada and England.
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| ford38v8 | -- 12-05-2009 @ 10:28 AM |
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Tom, One very good thing about Gary Mallast as an Author is that he reports what he can verify, and draws no hard & fast conclusions from his research. He maintains this attitude throughout his books, which maddens some, as a definite answer is not to be found, but rather, the reader is left to muddle through the various Ford documents he has reported. In this way, Gary can not be faulted for reporting information since to be found in error. I applaud his self control in this as a researcher, rather than to appoint himself Judge & Jury. It is interesting to have this debate at this late date on the mix of 21/24 stud engines, as I would have thought the issue had long ago been put to bed. Surprisingly though, from his research, it seems that the question remains without resolve. As the serial number of an engine/transmission assembly appears on the transmission only, engines could be swapped without consequence at any time for these past 71+ years, so observations on the Concourse are speculation at best. Below, you will find a listing of pages containing evidence to support both yours and my opinions. When all evidence is taken together, I believe you will agree with my interpretation. Page 4-33 E. Engine 1. Block Page 8-2 B. Engine Numbers 1. 85 H.P. Engine Numbers Page 6-2 B. Canadian variations Not reported in the book, but from assumption, I believe that service replacement engines would not have been mated with transmissions, therefore would have no serial number, nor would other industrial uses for the engine. (This would support the use of the September serial numbers in cars. All numbers authorized for 21 stud engines were assigned but for 3393 engines, the last number used being in September.) Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 12-5-09 @ 10:31 AM
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| Stroker | -- 12-06-2009 @ 6:50 AM |
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Thank You! I've enjoyed the discussion, and I believe some of the answers merit being pasted in my new 38-39 Book when it arrives. I agree that Gary leaves some things to our interpretation. What I respect is that he doesn't re-write history or speculate. I also want to specifically thank Alan for giving me more column width to ramble in by bringing the little "dart" in the lower right corner to my attention. Now I just need to find an appropriate aluminum manifold. Thanks Again!
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| supereal | -- 12-06-2009 @ 8:25 AM |
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The manifolds are out there. I bought one a couple of years ago at a swap meet to get the carb and linkage. There is no number on it anywhere, but it has a high carb mount, which I assume makes it a 37-39 piece.
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| 42ford | -- 12-06-2009 @ 9:59 AM |
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Can someone post a pic of the alum manifold? I just might have an extra Thanks Dick
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| supereal | -- 12-06-2009 @ 10:32 AM |
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I have a pic of the one I have that I can e-mail to you. I still haven't mastered posting here.
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| supereal | -- 12-06-2009 @ 10:39 AM |
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Maybe I've figured it out. I'll try it again.
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| ford38v8 | -- 12-06-2009 @ 11:33 AM |
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Bob, the manifold you show is aluminum, but is an aftermarket manifold. It would draw a point penalty on the Concourse. I know you wouldn't want to post incorrect info. The ID numbers never appeared on top nor inside. Only a date tag cast into the underside. yours shows the part number and years that it will fit on the top surface. Stroker, It looks like we'll have to remember to stretch the posting window each time we use it! Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 12-6-09 @ 11:40 AM
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| Stroker | -- 12-06-2009 @ 11:54 AM |
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Now that I'm pretty sure the aluminum manifold is the correct way to go, I guess I'll have to pose the next question: Bro (now 77), says he remembers that it came originally with a Chandler Groves 94. I presently have a "leaker" (Stromberg 97) installed. Any thoughts?
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| oldford2 | -- 12-06-2009 @ 1:16 PM |
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Stroker, Talk to Don, nard86@optonline.net or phone 845-868-7732. He has a 38 alum intake manifold and can help answer your questions. Oldford2
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| oldford2 | -- 12-06-2009 @ 1:29 PM |
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CORRECTION on Don's e-mail address. Should be: denard86@optonline.net
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| Stroker | -- 12-06-2009 @ 2:06 PM |
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Supereal: That sure looks like the manifold that was on a 38 parts mule I had in the 50's. Of course it didn't have felt-tip application marks on it, but it had that same "flattened" look to the runners, and tall riser. At the time, I was more interested in gleaning some front sheet metal,frame etc. after a run-in with a Dodge (I think that's why they are called "Dodges"). Also at the time, I was running the car with a 54 Merc, so I didn't pay much attention to saving the "gennie" stuff. I don't believe the manifold you picture is aftermarket. Problem is, it also looks like the manifold that was on our 35 Ford truck. I probably need to know if there were any visible changes in aluminum intakes from 34 to 38.
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| supereal | -- 12-06-2009 @ 2:43 PM |
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There are no marks anywhere on the manifold, except those I put on with a wick pen. I used a process of elimination to determine which years it seemed to fit, and marked it accordingly. It had a 94 carb on it when I bought it. I have so much flathead stuff laying around that I need to mark it before my old memory consigns it to oblivion. Right now it is hiding under one of our benches. (The manifold, not my memory). It doesn't match any aftermarket pieces I've seen. The high carb riser may be a clue.
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| Stroker | -- 12-06-2009 @ 3:17 PM |
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Bob: Well I think MY brain must be under the bench, as I said I was running a 54 Merc; it was, in fact a 53. If your manifold had a Chandler Groves on it, and it was part of an original assembly; I would think it possibly is 38-39, as anything earlier most likely would have had a 97. There must have been a mid-year change in carbs.,as my owner's manual shows photo's that only reveal the Stromberg. I'm going to lose points at any meet, as I refuse to give up my hydraulic brakes and 39 wiring loom w/2-brush & regulator. I'll also lose points for my turn signals, and right hand brake/tail light, as woodies only had a "teacup" on the left rear post. Since my 48-59A iron manifold has a hole in the heatriser, it just seemed like a good time to "correct" the manifold discrepancy. I'm just trying to rebuild a good "driver", so I can attend some of our gatherings in the Midwest.
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| ford38v8 | -- 12-06-2009 @ 6:58 PM |
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Bob, I apologize... I mistook your felt pen marks for casting marks. It does otherwise look correct. Stroker, for a '38, either a 97 or a chandler Groves is correct. Be sure, if you use a Chandler Groves, that it is NOT a Model 91-99. The model was not designated until 1939. Hydraulics will cost points, turn signals will not if they are neatly done and are vintage. Right side tail lamps were mandatory in some states, so that shouldn't be a problem. Two brush is OK if you have a radio. Be sure you use the small square '1938 regulator and you'll be fine. Alan
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| Stroker | -- 12-07-2009 @ 6:11 AM |
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Alan: I really appreciate the advice on the "fine points". I currently have a 97 on it as that's what I have the most of, left over from my "multi-carb" days. I only have a few "Chandler-Groves style" Holly-built Ford script carbs, and of course they are, 91-99's and Holly 94's which as you correctly state is just a little too new. For now, I think I'll stay with the "leaker" and maybe upgrade it with one of the newer aftermarket floats and accelerator pumps. Someday, I'll try and find a 94, as I believe the CG design is a little "smoother-operating".
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| jerry.grayson | -- 12-07-2009 @ 2:13 PM |
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The 37-39 aluminum intake manifold is easy to spot. It has a low generator mount and the 36 has a tall generator mount.
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| jerry.grayson | -- 12-07-2009 @ 2:13 PM |
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The 37-39 aluminum intake manifold is easy to spot. It has a low generator mount and the 36 has a tall generator mount.
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| Stroker | -- 12-07-2009 @ 3:26 PM |
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Thank You Jerry! Kind of makes sense, given the "overhanging" radiator head-tank. Appreciate the input.
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| Fred | -- 12-29-2009 @ 2:07 PM |
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I know I am posting this well after most of the interest in this thread has run out, but I thought I would throw in my two cents worth. I have a 38 standard coupe with its original 21 stud motor and glass dating the car at the earliest in late spring. Most original 38s I have seen have 21 stud motors in them.
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| Stroker | -- 12-29-2009 @ 3:37 PM |
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Fred: Thanks for reviving my original post, as I don't believe there is an easy answer to my original question. Dad had established an interesting relationship with our local Pomona CA dealer. He bought a 33 5-window, traded it for a 34 5-window, then a 35 5-window, a 36 3-window, and then traded the 35 for a 37 coupe. My grandmother kept the 36 3-window, and traded it in on a 40 Zephyr. In 1938, dad traded the 37 in on the 38 wagon in question. Dad figured that with the cost of tires, batteries, and other consumables, and given the fact that he had a complete, well stocked service area for ranch equipment (including a grease pit), that the dealer always had a waiting list for whatever he turned in since there was never a question as to maintenance, and his average mileage was less than 5,000 miles a year, mostly road miles from his properties in Paso Robles, Imperial and Alta Loma. Beyond the cars, we had a string of Ford trucks that were also sourced from this dealer. Having said that, and having grown up in this environment, I would say that the Old Man had more than average "leverage" with this dealer. When he bought the wagon, he ordered it with just about everything you could option out. It had a radio, 3-seats, leather front seat, sun visors (Sorry Gary), dealer installed spot light, radio Columbia overdrive and a "so-called" truck engine. Since I wasn't quite a gleam in his eye at this point, I cannot personally attest to the spec's, but I do remember the "howl" it gave off, due to the 6-blade fan. As I said at the very beginning of this post, by the time I was wrenching on our collection of Ford-powered equipment, Dad had changed the motor a couple of times. In about 1975, I was in the middle of one of my re-restorations of this old gal, and my brother mentioned that the Stromberg I had on it was wrong. Bro said that when it was new,(he would have been about 7) it had a Chandler-Groves on it. So....we may never know whether it was a 24-stud commercial truck motor perhaps special ordered, or a late 21 stud with a CG carb. As far as I'm concerned it is kind of an open question.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 12-30-2009 @ 6:42 AM |
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all of the wagons were assembled in Iron Mountain Mich. The order may have gone through Long Beach. The Columbia was probbly not installed by the dealer but the dealer delivered the wagon to an authorize Columbia installer in the area and afterward delivered it to your dad. If you can find someone with the 38 Reference Manual for dealers and salesmen this will have the optional equipment available through Ford.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 12-30-2009 @ 6:43 AM |
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all of the wagons were assembled in Iron Mountain Mich. The order may have gone through Long Beach. The Columbia was probbly not installed by the dealer but the dealer delivered the wagon to an authorize Columbia installer in the area and afterward delivered it to your dad. If you can find someone with the 38 Reference Manual for dealers and salesmen this will have the optional equipment available through Ford.
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| Stroker | -- 12-30-2009 @ 3:06 PM |
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40 Coupe: I agree with your conjecture that the Columbia was most likely installed by an authorized installer. As a long time member of the National Woodie Club, and V8-Club member in the 70's, I recall seeing photo's of steel shipping crates being used at Iron Mountain to convey wagon parts to the various assembly plants. It is my understanding that Ford started building complete wagon bodies in 1937 at Iron Mountain. What I don't know is the degree of completion and pre-assembly that took place in 1938. It has been my understanding that these body assemblies were only the left and right hand body halves plus top slats, windshield header and tailgate parts, which were then nested into these narrow steel reusable containers. Others have suggested that by 1938, that the complete body assembly (which would consist of the sides, top and cowling) were rail-shipped pre-assembled to the various final assembly plants. I wish someone that is closer to the Ford archives would research this question. At present, I do not believe that "rolling chassis", nor completed vehicles ever exited Iron Mountain.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 12-31-2009 @ 10:04 AM |
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stoker According to L. Sorensen in "Famous Ford Woodies" Iron Mountain produced all the wood for all the wagons from 34 to 51 when it closed. By 38 Iron Mountain produced the unfinished wood as loose pieces and assemblies, such as doors, qtr. pnls, tailgates, and seat frames, shipped them to Murray in Detroit. Murray did final body assembly and furnished the stampings necesssary including rear fenders. Forgings were furnished by other Co.s. It then appears the finished body was shipped to various Ford assembly plants and met with their chassis. It was not until 1940 that Iron Mountain produced the entire body. I stand corrected your wagon could have had it`s final assembly in Long Beach!
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| Stroker | -- 12-31-2009 @ 11:28 AM |
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Thank You 40! I have the greatest respect for Loren's research. I should acquire the referenced book if it is still in print, and bone-up a bit. I think I've beaten this thread to death, so maybe it will die along with the outgoing decade. Thank you all for your wisdom, and Happy New Year to all! Dan
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| supereal | -- 01-01-2010 @ 7:37 AM |
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Loren's woodie book is a treasure of information. We can only hope that, since his death, his publishing company (Silverado) will continue. As our membership ages, we are losing much of the invaluable history of our old Fords. His knowledge of Fords was eclipsed only by his consideration. Every time I ordered one of his books, he included an inscription or note.
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