| doning | -- 09-17-2011 @ 4:38 PM |
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Ok. I can't believe this happened today! He's my story. I took my 37 Ford to it's first car show today and had a great time. I started it up and headed home which was about a 3 minute drive and just before I got to my driveway I heard what sounded like a dry bearing noise coming from the engine. I idled it in the garage and the light bearing noise would come and go. I could not find out where it was coming from. The car had oil pressure, the temp was at 160 and it idled and took the gas well. It sounded great except for this little bearing like sound. The water level was up and the oil level is fine. After giving it some gas to look for the noise I shut it off. Five minutes later I thought I would restart it and take it for a drive and see if the noise would go away. I turned on the ignition switch and hit the starter button and all I got was click, click, click. The battery was ok. Here's what I cannot believe happened! For the heck of it I decided to turn the engine over by hand and it's locked up! Tight as a drum. There were NO warning signs of this engine seizing up. I thought before an engine would seize it would make some sort of noise or overheat. Any chance that maybe the starter bendix is locking the flywheel bacause it didn't kick back. Any ideas??? Thanks. Don
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 09-17-2011 @ 5:09 PM |
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I am assuming it is a 21 stud engine 85 hp.but it really does not matter, turning the engine over by hand,is this with a wrench on the crankshaft nut,or by trying to move it with fan,? if it is indeed seized up,you can remove the starter and see if it is was a hanging up bendix drive, if after removing the starter it still does not turn over, REMOVE the oil pan, the bearing that is seized should be the dry one,or maybe discolored. get back to us with more info hope this helps 37RAGTOPMAN
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| doning | -- 09-17-2011 @ 5:17 PM |
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37RAGTOPMAN: The engine is a 85 HP. I tried to turn the engine over with a socket on the crankshaft nut. I cannot believe the engine itself is seized. It acted perfectly normal except for the sound of a dry roller bearing noise. This message was edited by doning on 9-17-11 @ 5:20 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-17-2011 @ 5:20 PM |
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Doning, So sorry to hear that. Tell me, the solenoid click... Was there a sound or a thump immediately prior to the first solenoid click? If so, then I'd think as you did, the bendix. If no thump, then I think your engine should turn over again after cool down, which in itself is not a good sign, as that would indicate a tear down to resolve, possibly a crank bearing clearance issue. I hope it's the bendix! Alan
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-17-2011 @ 5:23 PM |
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Doning, THe main caps are coded to install only one way. All three should have a match mark on the cap and the block. Alan
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| doning | -- 09-17-2011 @ 5:29 PM |
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There was no thump. Just a click, click, click of the solenoid. I had a friend hit the starter button as I was just under the starter itself and I could here the slamming of something in the area. I didn't really here another strange under the oil pan.
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-17-2011 @ 5:31 PM |
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The slamming? Maybe the thump I refferred to? That woiuld be the bendix, good news? Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 9-17-11 @ 5:32 PM
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| doning | -- 09-17-2011 @ 5:33 PM |
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ford38v8: I rebuild the engine 8 years ago which was the first part of my restoration. I've put over 200 miles on the motor on my first year driving it. Wouldn't this have happened earlier?
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-17-2011 @ 5:41 PM |
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Don, Yes, that's good news. Sounds like your first idea is correct! Did you have the brace from stareter front to oil pan? This is a small angled piece held in place by a starter main bolt, and an oil pan screw. Alan
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| doning | -- 09-17-2011 @ 5:43 PM |
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No. I have no brace. Just the two bolts holding the starter on.
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-17-2011 @ 5:49 PM |
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that's more indication that it's the bendix. It gets better all the time! Alan
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| alanwoodieman | -- 09-18-2011 @ 6:23 AM |
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put the car in gear, open the hood and rock the car to see if the engine is free, second pull the starter and replace the bendix
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| supereal | -- 09-18-2011 @ 11:47 AM |
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I agree with the others that the starter may be at fault. If the drive stuck in the flywheel ring gear after you started it to go home, it would make that kind of noise as the engine turned the starter. It could be a sticky or damaged "Bendix" and/or a ring gear on the flywheel with bad teeth. The small support bracket is available from good vendors. C&G shows it as 51A-11150, about $5. It serves two purposes: it helps prevent torsion dislocation as the engine is cranked, and it supplies a more reliable ground. If you do find the starter is the source of your problem, be sure to check the shaft for "run out" to be sure it isn't bent. And, when the starter is turned by the engine at high speed, it often results in internal damage to the brushes and windings.
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| 42wagon | -- 09-18-2011 @ 3:52 PM |
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doning All of what these guys have told you is good advice but I think they are missing the root problem. In addition to the two long bolts through the starter into the oil pan there is supposed to be a small clip under one of the long bolts on the nose of the starter and bolted to the gasket flange on the oil pan. If this is not in place the starter nose will droop causing problems with the alignment of the bendix in the flywheel. 42 wagon
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| doning | -- 09-18-2011 @ 4:26 PM |
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UPDATE: You guy's were right. It was the starter. I went out to the garage this morning and tried once again to turn the engine over using the nut on the crank and it was still tight as a drum. My Dad and I removed the starter case and using a block of wood with a heavy hammer had to slamp the armature back and forth until it came loose. After it came out the bendix looked good with nothing broken but we did notice that the small gear was very sloppy on the spiral shaft. You can rock the gear back and forth on the shaft. We will do the test that supereal said to make sure the shaft is not bend. If all is okay I will order a new bendix assembly. I am also going to check to make sure that my "new" flywheel bevels are okay. There are no missing teeth. Thank God my engine turns over by hand as smooth as anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks again. Don This message was edited by doning on 9-18-11 @ 4:29 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-18-2011 @ 4:26 PM |
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Don, I haven't heard of chinese bendix springs, but just in case they are making them now, be sure to specify USA manufacture. The guys on the barn arewaitying to hear how it turned out for you! Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 9-18-11 @ 4:30 PM
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| doning | -- 09-18-2011 @ 4:57 PM |
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I also sent an update on the Barn too. I will make sure the bendix is USA made. I was going to order from Joes Antique Auto or Mac's.
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| alanwoodieman | -- 09-19-2011 @ 8:28 AM |
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the new starter bendix has a rubber bushing arrangement and appears to be a little "softer" on the flywheel when using 12 volts. At least you didn't try to pull start the car like a buddy of mine did, we had to drive the bendix out of the flywheel, chipped a few teeth and bent the oilpan mounting flange, be sure and use the bracket for the oilpan when you put the starter back on
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| supereal | -- 09-19-2011 @ 8:51 AM |
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When a vendor says "US made", they often either don't know for sure, or are not truthful. All they have to do is look at the barcode that accompanies the piece. If the first three digits are 690,691, or 692, it was made in China. 471 is Taiwan. US & Canada are 00 to 09. My thanks to my friend Alan for that important info. It may be soon that we will have no choice but to accept the offshore quality, but at least the vendor should be truthful.
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| doning | -- 09-19-2011 @ 9:10 AM |
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Supereal: Before I go and bother the vendors to look up the barcode info, do you know of a place where I can buy from for the US part? Thanks. And yes, I have the small starter support on order with C&G.
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| supereal | -- 09-19-2011 @ 11:53 AM |
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I've had some luck using my local NAPA store. At least, if it turns out to be junk, they usually will stand behind it with a refund or replacement. Poor quality isn't always solved by "buying American". We send back a fair amount of new parts that either don't work, or fail early. Some parts houses have adopted a free replacement policy to combat the problem. Last week we spent extra hours fixing the climate control on a GMC Denali. The original control was obviously bad, but the new Delco replacement was no better. Finally, we received a unit that actually did the job. We couldn't bill the customer for the extra couple of hours spent fooling with a defective part, so our share suffered. Poor quality isn't limited to antique parts.
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-19-2011 @ 7:06 PM |
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A question to a phone order clerk regarding country of origin may get you an honest mistake answer that indicates the location of the USA importer. Then again, this answer may be a careless answer. I'm totally down on imported antique automobile parts. It's the ultimate disgrace to do this to an All American Icon like an Early Ford V8. Alan
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| doning | -- 09-20-2011 @ 3:01 AM |
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I totaly agree. I'm going to remove the bendix sometime this week and do what super says and check for run out. If I'm good, I'll search around for a new bendix.
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| joe b | -- 09-20-2011 @ 6:48 AM |
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I bought rod and crank bearings for my flathead recently. I told them I did not want Chinese parts and was assured they were not. One set was from TRW in Toledo,Oh. the other set was made in Israel. But they are not Chinese.
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| TomO | -- 09-20-2011 @ 7:39 AM |
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Don, You may not need a new Bendix. You said that you did not have the bracket that attaches to the front of the starter and the oil pan. If that bracket is missing, the starter can lock up just as yours did. When this happens, it very seldom does any permanent damage. I am still using the same starter and Bendix drive that hung up in 1978. I put on the bracket and have had no problems since. I do have the replacement Bendix that I ordered back then and will sell it. Tom
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| doning | -- 09-20-2011 @ 9:08 AM |
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TomO: What bothers me about the bendix is that the 10 tooth gear that rides on the spiraled shaft is sloppy as heck. You can take that gear in your fingers and wiggle it like crazy. As supereal said, I think that was the dry bearing like sound that I was hearing with the engine idling and running at higher RPM's.
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| alanwoodieman | -- 09-20-2011 @ 9:36 AM |
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it is suppossed to be a little "sloppy", do not be tempted to put grease or oil on it or you will be removing it again to clean it off- I know I learned that lesson a long time ago.
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| doning | -- 09-21-2011 @ 10:51 AM |
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Ok.
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| doning | -- 09-25-2011 @ 5:20 PM |
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UPDATE: I replaced the bendix on my starter that I purchsed from Mac's today. The car starts okay but I'm not too sure about what this new bendix sounds like. After you hit the starter button and the engine begins to start I hear a clunk noise in the starter area. The only thing I can tell it is the recoil from the bendix after the flywheel spits the small gear out. I did do a test and hit the switch under the soleniod and it's nice and quiet when it meets the flywheel. Anything to worry about? This message was edited by doning on 9-25-11 @ 5:57 PM
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| supereal | -- 09-25-2011 @ 8:25 PM |
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When the engine starts, the drive is spun out of the ring gear via the spiral on the shaft. The Bendix spring provides some cushioning, but if this spiral is clean and dry,as it should be, it can make a noise. A badly worn gear or shaft can make is louder. Be sure the starter thru bolts has secured it to the engine, and the support bracket is in place.
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| doning | -- 09-26-2011 @ 3:07 AM |
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Super: The through bolts are very tight and I purchased a support bracket from C & G and it doesn't fit. The holes don't line up either way. Do you know of another place where I can get one that fit's a 1937 Ford 85 HP? Don
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| TomO | -- 09-26-2011 @ 7:47 AM |
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Don, I am not sure if the bracket with 2 holes on the oil pan side will fit the 21 stud engine, but I think that is the purpose for the 2 holes. Try Little Dearborn or Joblot. Both of them have some NOS Ford parts left. http://www.joblotauto.com/ http://www.littledearborn.com/ Tom
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| supereal | -- 09-26-2011 @ 10:05 AM |
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I suspect that the 51A bracket won't work with your 21 stud engine, as they show as being for the 39-53 years. They are not a complicated piece, and you may be able to fabricate one to fit. The last ones we bought came from Baxter Ford Parts in Lawrence KS.
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| TomO | -- 09-26-2011 @ 11:35 AM |
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I am wrong about the extra hole for the 21 stud engine. The Green Book shows that the 59A pan will fit 1932-1948 engines. If the Green book is correct, the bolt holes would be in the same relative position on the 21 stud and later blocks. Try installing the bracket on the oil pan and then installing the starter bolt. Make sure that the other starter bolt is tightened just enough for the head to contact the lock-washer. Tom
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| doning | -- 09-27-2011 @ 2:51 AM |
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TomO: I moved the little bracket every which way and nothing works.
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| TomO | -- 09-27-2011 @ 8:28 AM |
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Don, then I suggest that you try to find an original one. It has one hole for the starter bolt and 2 holes for the pan side, one of the pan side holes is elongated. I think that this is the 8A-11140. Tom
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