| mdurhan | -- 08-30-2011 @ 1:01 PM |
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Howdy, boys: I wish to return my 6-volt system back to positive ground (from 6-volt negative ground) in my '39 Deluxe. I presume I would need to: 1) switch the battery cables at battery terminals 2) re-polorize the generator 3) swap the leads to the ampmeter gauge 4) Swap the coil leads?? And, perhaps, the voltage regulator and starter will be okay?? Thank you in advance for your courtesies in response to these questions. I remain Much obliged, Mike Durhan
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| ford38v8 | -- 08-30-2011 @ 5:36 PM |
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Mike, I think all you need to switch is the battery leads and the ammeter direction through the loop, and polarize the generator. Nothing else should be affected. Edit: Mike, this post should have been part of your previous post on the same subject. Makes for easier reference if dealing with one subject. Since I hadn't seen the other post till now, and likewise Supereal's response, I'll address the coil issue a bit further: I'm not an electrician, but the way I understand it is that the coil primary and secondary are two separate circuits, not to be switched because you'd get much less secondary voltage as a result. The primary being fed by insulated wire and the case being grounded, it doesn't care a whit about pos/neg as long as everything else is equal. Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 8-30-11 @ 5:55 PM
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| Stroker | -- 08-30-2011 @ 6:32 PM |
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Alan: I certainly agree with you regarding the secondary, as there is no physical connection between primary and secondary. I have always thought though, that it is better to have the primary-side points properly polarized, since over time, they transfer material from one point contact to the other. The "classic" thinking was that it was easier to remove the build up from the stationary point, than the movable one. Having said that; I can't imagine anyone with a 32-40 distributor filing points.
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| ford38v8 | -- 08-30-2011 @ 6:59 PM |
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Dan, I believe that the condenser would dump it's charge at the point when the battery is connected, and the first cranking with ignition on would load the condenser with the polarized charge. The points just play follow the leader. Am I wrong? Alan
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| Stroker | -- 08-30-2011 @ 7:11 PM |
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Alan: I suspect you are right, but perhaps Super or Dolman have a take on this as well. Given that 32-40 points have an "opening" set and a "closing" set, any material transfer would only occur on the "opening" set. I really have a tough time visualizing electrons, as while I can design complex mechanical linkage, them electrons are spooky.
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| supereal | -- 08-30-2011 @ 7:58 PM |
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The primary and secondary windings are, in fact, connected. The upper end of the secondary (high voltage) is attached to the primary thirty and a half turns from the top. That is one reason it is difficult to diagnose whether the windings are shorted one to the other. The terminal to the connected side of the windings goes to the negative side of the system in a stock (positive ground) system, making polarity selection important. This message was edited by supereal on 8-30-11 @ 8:01 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 08-30-2011 @ 8:44 PM |
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Bob, I'm not understanding you. Can you please 'splain it again? I'll listen harder. Alan
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| MG | -- 08-30-2011 @ 11:29 PM |
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Click on this link for a good/simple explanation and a diagram of primary and secondary windings common connection to one another. http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig104.htm
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| 51f1 | -- 08-31-2011 @ 8:05 AM |
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The polarity of the high tension coil terminal is important. Reversing coil polarity will affect this. Some coils have a terminal marked "Distributor" or "Dist." Some have a positive or negative designation. On those, connect the positive terminal to the distributor (this pertains to positive ground systems only). The build up on the ignition points is affected by the condenser. An under capacity condenser will cause build-up on the positive contact and an over capacity condenser will cause build-up on the negative contact. Richard This message was edited by 51f1 on 8-31-11 @ 8:11 AM
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| supereal | -- 08-31-2011 @ 8:56 AM |
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Alan: The primary and secondary windings in the coil ar joined together close to the low voltage input. Then, one end of the primary winding goes to the distributor, where the points furnish a ground, while the secondary (high voltage) winding terminates in the distributor where the rotor sends the spark voltage to the plugs. The coil is known as a "Tesla" type, named for the inventor. If a diagram would help, I'll post one.
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| Dolman | -- 08-31-2011 @ 10:07 AM |
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If the conversion to negative ground did not include reversing the coil connections, the efficiency of the ignition system was compromised. If not, conversion to positive ground will restore the designed efficiency. If the connections were reversed upon the conversion to negative ground, reverse them again. The principle involved rests in the design of a sparkplug. In a wire, electrons flow from negative to positive. They will also flow through air if the potential (voltage) difference is high enough. In a sparkplug the center conductor is a cathode - negative and the sh*ll an anode - positive. The emission of electrons is enhanced when a cathode is heated, hence the volume and velocity of electrons flowing to the anode is greater. Because electrons are negatively charged they repel each other and because the cathode is also negative they can't return there. So the result is an electron gun in which the velocity of the flow increases with the increase in cathode heat and a more robust spark. The center electrode in a spark plug is surrounded by a ceramic jacket which performs 2 functions. Insulation from heat loss and prevention of arc between the electrode to the body of the plug. Because the sh*ll electrode is firmly attached to the block it dissipates heat more rapidly and the benefit of electron emmission from heat is diminished. So we need to always want the center electrode - cathode to be negative with respect to the ground scheme of the vehicle. This was lengthy which is evidence of the German side of my ancestry and I hope it makes some sense. "Ask me what time it is and I'll show you how to build a clock." This message was edited by Dolman on 8-31-11 @ 10:10 AM
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| Stroker | -- 08-31-2011 @ 10:43 AM |
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Dolman: What time is it? Stroker
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| ford38v8 | -- 08-31-2011 @ 12:43 PM |
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OK, I think I've got an intelligent question now: If all this is true, then why did everyone including Ford, switch over to negative ground? Alan
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| Dolman | -- 08-31-2011 @ 1:19 PM |
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Well, there are several methods. One that would work well outside during the day at your latitude is to take an oldy rusty brake drum and scratch lines in it around its perimeter and insert a straight stick perpendicular to and in the center of the horizontal plane of the drum. At sunrise at the vernal equinox, rub a piece of green chalk across the scratch that aligns with the shadow of the stick. That will be March 21. Then at sunrise at the autumnal equinox rub a piece of red chalk on the scratch aligned with the shadow of the stick. (I selected the colors in deference to your status as an old sea dog). That will be September 22 or 23. The movement of the shadow between the 2 marks will be relatively linear around the perimeter and will, with a reasonable degree of accuracy, indicate the progression of the months. To indicate days, hours and minutes, scratch intervening marks until you really don't care what time it is. I admit the system will be inoperative during the nightime periods but that isn't a serious because you should be asleep during that interval. And where I live, it's called hibernation. Another method is to cut the top off an oil bottle and poke a small hole in the bottom. Fill it with water and observe the alignment of the surface of the water with the ounce marks running down the narrow vertical plane of the water and translate the marks to hours, etc. That will get you closer than the foregoing. With the assumption that you are asking the time is because your timepiece is not on your person. Maybe you pawned it to purchase counterfeit old Ford parts from C&G or Mack's? Another method is to look at your mobile phone unless, of course you also bartered it for additonal cash for a big ticket item. If you are interested, I can describe how to fashion a clock using fresh birch limbs, moose or caribou sinew and the leaf from a discard Ford spring. Very accurate until the birch gets dry at which time it becomes hazardous. It is recommended that you never stand close to it because the point at which the birch loses sufficient moisture to render it brittle is dependent on the heating degree days which we all know are unpredictable. The best method would be to sell your Ford and get your watch out of hock. Now, aren't you glad you asked? This message was edited by Dolman on 8-31-11 @ 1:24 PM
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| Stroker | -- 08-31-2011 @ 1:32 PM |
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Dolman: It was a good read! Thanks, Stroker
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| Dolman | -- 08-31-2011 @ 1:38 PM |
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Alan, I guess it was because EE's began to specialize and didn't want to be called Holetrical Engineers. Conveys the wrong connotation. I really don't know. To be sure we would have to exhume Henry and ask him.
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| ford38v8 | -- 08-31-2011 @ 2:53 PM |
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Ok Dolman, I gotcha on that point. Exhuming old Henry would require dynamite. His widow Clara had his coffin buried in concrete to prevent grave robbers from digging him up. Henry died in 1947, while the Ford was still positive ground. Alan
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| Dolman | -- 08-31-2011 @ 4:46 PM |
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Now I'm troubled by the cruel irony of Henry's burial. It is generally held that the earth has a negative charge with respect to the atmosphere. Therefore, Henry is indeed physically grounded but electrically negatively grounded. I don't mean to use Henry for humor. He was a marvelous man in what he did for transportation world wide. Hopefully to settle the question of why he used a positive ground, in his defense he was simply applying the standard thinking in the era in which he worked.
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| mdurhan | -- 08-31-2011 @ 8:50 PM |
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Thanks 51f1. Hell, I'm still reeling from my big "faux pas" (the fact I didn't ask all my polarity questions in just one posting). I day-yam sure will from now on..... or else I'll just move on and not post here again. Mike Durhan
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| mdurhan | -- 08-31-2011 @ 8:52 PM |
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. This message was edited by mdurhan on 8-31-11 @ 9:06 PM
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| TomO | -- 09-01-2011 @ 7:53 AM |
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Please don't move on and not post here. We like to feel that everyone is welcome here. Tom
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| Dolman | -- 09-01-2011 @ 8:14 AM |
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I second that invitation. Mike, your original question was comprehensive and I appreciated the opportunity to dig out my moth eaten text books.
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| Stroker | -- 09-01-2011 @ 9:17 AM |
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Howdy Mike: Given your response to the gentleman who inquired about the Columbian rear axle, I would think you would tolerate a few departures from the original question. By the way, Columbian rear axles probably didn't originate in South America, as that country's name is Colombia, thus making them "Colombian" axles. Do stay aboard, and I apologize to all for my contributing more than my share of speculation regarding your original question. I believe it turned out to be a good thread, with some excellent references.
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-01-2011 @ 9:31 AM |
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Mike, if you're reeling from what I said, I really don't think I could have said it better, and I don't see that an apology is in order. I and I believe everyone else here would, however, be sorry to see you "move on", so hang with us, and we'll all learn together. Alan
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| mdurhan | -- 09-02-2011 @ 6:41 PM |
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Alan: If you don't think an apology is in order, then do not apologize. I wasn't demanding one anyway. Actually, I am easy going, unless somebody tries to run-over me. I am a tenderfoot here. I do not (apparently) know how to ask questions in the proper manner. I just like old V-8 Fords and want to join in with some nice guys who also like old V-8 Fords and know more than I about them. I am not on edge nor looking to be easily offended. I just want to learn and be of help whenever I can. I bought my first '39 in 1967 and joined the EFV8 Club shortly thereafter. I attended the first Grand National in Dearborn, in 1973. I sold that first '39 in 1984 when I found an original, authentic Boss 302 Trans-Am Mustang racecar in a state of distress. (I know that does not mean anything to many of you, which is understandable.) I vintage raced for years, but now I can tell my reflexes are not what they used to be. Neither is my wallet..... Now, I am getting "long in the tooth" and returning to my V-8 roots. I just want to make friends and improve the '39 Tudor sedan I recently bought (and paid too much for). I don't want to make enemies. But, I am not meek and will not hang around to be "run-over". I hope I am still welcome here. If not, then you tell me, Alan. Just let me know in an unoffending manner..... Thanks. Mike Durhan This message was edited by mdurhan on 9-2-11 @ 6:46 PM
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| mdurhan | -- 09-02-2011 @ 6:48 PM |
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Good point, Stroker. I stand corrected - and "dressed down". Mike Durhan
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-02-2011 @ 8:06 PM |
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Mike, About my non-apology... I'm the first to admit that I am misunderstood more than anyone I know, and have missed making a new friend more often than not because I speak my mind, letting people know where I stand. This tendency makes me the most honest man you've ever misunderstood if that is your intention. On the other hand, I'm sure you've found that as Forums go, this is about as friendly and helpful a Forum as you'll find. We don't put each other down, we don't engage in name calling, and we consider the friends we make more important than the Fords that brought us together. In this spirit then, you have my apology for my often misinterpreted manner. Now let's get back to talking about the Fords that brought us together. Alan
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| mdurhan | -- 09-03-2011 @ 4:03 PM |
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Thanks, Alan. I believe you and I have worked out the foundation for a good, long-term friendship. Let's move forward by helping each othe with our V-8's. Mike Durhan
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