| DONALD | -- 08-25-2011 @ 12:19 PM |
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PRETTY SURE THE PLUGS ARE IN PLACE,HAD TIMING GEAR OFF TO REPLACE CAM AND THE FRONT PLUG WAS THERE.REBUILT ENGINE SUPPOSELY,HAVE A NOISE IN ENGINE WHEN GETS WARM GOES AWAY WHEN NO 7 PLUG WIRE IS REMOVED. NO NOISE TILL ENGINE GETS WARM NO NOISE AT HIGHER RPM .WAS GETTING READY TO PULL ENGINE AND NOTICED THERE WAS NO OIL IN THE VALVE GALLEY OIL PRESSUR SPRING SEEMED OK A LITTLE PRESSUR WHEN I PULLED TOP PLUG OIL PRESSURE AT IDLE ABOUT 20 LBS VARIES ABOUT 2LBS, OFF 30 LB GAUGE AT FAST IDLE NO OIL COMING OUT OF FUEP PUMP CACITY WHE RUNNING ENGINE ,, ANY IDEAS ?HOW MUCH OIL SHOULD BE IN THE VALVE TRAIL CHAMBER,DRIEDS IT OUT THE OTHER DAY WHEN ADJUSTING VALVE, STILL DRY AFTER RUNNING ENGINE
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 08-25-2011 @ 4:42 PM |
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did you replace the cam bearing,maybe not lined up correctly ? shutting the oil supply off to cam ??? also usually if you disconnect a spark plug wire and the noise goes away, it is a rod bearing,not knowing what kind of sounds make a big difference, could you post a little more info ? my 3 cents worth 37RAGTOPMAN
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| DONALD | -- 08-25-2011 @ 5:15 PM |
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on a 59 AB NO 7 plug wire disc.noise goes away,pretty heavy noise down low i think its a rod may be loose,engine was rebuilt a few miles ago but dont know the history.Have engine out now .easier ,will take off pan in the morn and have a look see,dont have the body on so goes pretty easy.better than crawling atround on my back.
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| supereal | -- 08-25-2011 @ 8:49 PM |
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Check the oil distribution tube that runs the length of the valve chamber. Be sure the tube isn't blocked, and the baffle is in place. I suspect one or more oil galleries is plugged, which may have starved the rod bearing in the noisy cylinder. Only a teardown would confirm that. Old engines often have clogged oil passages. We open crankshafts to clear them, and often find lots of crud. It is also possible that the oil pump intake screen is blocked, or that the intake pipe has come loose from the pump. I wouldn't run the engine until you find the problem, or you run the risk of ruining the crankshaft. It is likely that lack of oil has caused a rod bearing to gall in the noisy cylinder.
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| DONALD | -- 08-26-2011 @ 1:27 PM |
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took off oil pan removed 7L and 3R 7 is the one where noise went away when i removed plug wire,removed rod caps @ bearing looked new,used plastigage come up with .002 book says .001-.003.where else could the noise come from?, crank was in tollerence also What other noise would go away by removing plug wire?
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| supereal | -- 08-26-2011 @ 5:44 PM |
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Diagnosing a noise without hearing it is somewhat akin to saying how blue is the sky. Banging is usually a rod, thudding, a main bearing. As you report lack of oil in the valve gallery, it is not unreasonable that a bearing is the source. Something is obviously amiss, and it probably will require a teardown to find it. Anything else is speculation.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 08-26-2011 @ 6:28 PM |
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DONALD check the wrist pins. if any play also. if worn will make a noise and the noise will lessen when the spark plug wire is disconnected, hope this helps, 37RAGTOPMAN
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| deuce_roadster | -- 08-26-2011 @ 8:48 PM |
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Any chance a crossfire from within the distrib or loom could make that particular cyl fire at the wrong time creating the knock? Did you check the other rod on that throw to see if it was loose? Are both valves, guides etc on that cyl fine? Let us know when you find the gremlin.
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| DONALD | -- 08-27-2011 @ 7:02 AM |
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Guess ill take the head off and remove piston and check for a twist in the rod and wrist pin.dist and wire loom are all in great shape.From what i hear on the ford barn there is very little oil in the valve galley,just mist and oil thats thrown up from splashing. the valve guides all seen to be ok and in place and have double checked clearence, I did chcek no 3R rod also.this engine has one large bearing per throw,is this a floating bearing?Someone said the rod bearings were individual. this is a 59 ab . the noise or small knock is only there at slow idle,at a fast idle engine was really smooth. STILL LOOKING.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 08-27-2011 @ 7:32 AM |
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DONALD before you pull the engine apart,!!!!! do a compression check, you said it runs smooth at higher speeds,[ does it run rough at idle? ] the noise might be a valve tap, like a tight guide or a broken valve spring,coming and going ? and at low idle it runs rough ?? sound like it could be a valve problem, more info,,, easier to figure out, hope this helps 37RAGTOPMAN This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 8-27-11 @ 7:33 AM
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| supereal | -- 08-27-2011 @ 9:36 AM |
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It is possible that a piston (wrist) pin could cause noise, as could a broken piston ring. The danger of a loose wrist pin is destruction of the cylinder wall and/or a capped piston. If the pin gouges the cylinder wall, it may not be possible to salvage the block with a sleeve. No mention was made of a compression check, at least on the number 7 cylinder, or whether the noise was present before the timing gear and cam was changed. Whenever the term "rebuilt" is mentioned, it is often followed by a tale of woe. Too often the "rebuilder" has done few or no jobs on very old engines. The rod bearings in the 59A engine are the full floating type serving two rods. The individual non floating rod bearings arrived with the 8BA engines. We have seen more than one old engine with one undersized crankpin, or a mismatched bearing the didn't fit the end of the rod. Almost every old engine has at least one surprise in it. This message was edited by supereal on 8-27-11 @ 9:42 AM
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| DONALD | -- 08-27-2011 @ 10:30 AM |
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Ihave done a compression check a couple times .all cylinders have rite at 128 lbs press.I do have Edmonds heads ,probally raises the comp some and have ck. the valve clearence in head but will ck again when i remove the left head. think i will remove the valve assemblys on no 7L and take a good look,might be something there.I could never get it to idle with the racing cam so dont know if the noise was there before changing cam back to org.There is no miss at idle.engine was really peppy when snaping the throttle.. the engine does have a oil pump with the relief valve built in ,does this effect anything with the pressure relief spring in the valve chamber? have about 18-20 lbs at idle after warm up.
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| DONALD | -- 08-27-2011 @ 1:47 PM |
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Removed the valve assemblys on no 7 where removed the plug wire noise went away.took the assemblys apart ,everything looked like new including the lifters.looked at the valve seat in block and saw some carbon build up on one edge of the valve seat of ex,valve. Took a break and thought about it.put the valve in lathe with dial indicator on seat of valve,had about .006 runout. could this be my source of noise at idle? everything else checked out on the guide clearence.002. How do i fix this.a frienf has an old falve facing machine ,take enough off to true it up and adj the lifter , Might have,or probally did this when i raised the valve and slid a shim in to hold valve open when i changed cam, cant understand how i had same compression on this cyl as others tho
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| supereal | -- 08-27-2011 @ 3:06 PM |
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With even compression, I doubt that you have a valve problem, at least seating, but the valve in the noisy cylinder may be interfering with the head. When using non stock cams and heads, we normally "clay" the heads to be sure that there is ample clearance between the valves and the head. If the valve you removed is slightly bent, it would seem to lean that way. That much runout is a concern, and probably didn't exist when the valve was faced. A couple of years ago, I chased an odd noise, and it turned out to be a valve seat that was improperly installed. Someone had staked it when the pocket was made too large, and it was rattling. We build lots of race engines using speed parts, and many require extra fitting.
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| TomO | -- 08-29-2011 @ 9:32 AM |
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With the floating bearings, you must check the rod to bearing and the rod to crank clearances. You must also check the rod opening for roundness. Give Red Hamilton a call for the procedure and specifications. Tom
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| DONALD | -- 08-31-2011 @ 1:27 PM |
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after taking a couple days off,thinking the noise was a valve ,found out my lath was off a little bit,pulled the piston on no 3L ,GUESS WHAT ,THE WRIST PIN HAD quite a bit of slop,took to local machine and had a new bushing fitted,in the process of reassemblying now ,well see if the knock has gone,all the other clearences were on speck,has to be the wrist pin,,, the engine has a oil pump with built in pressure relief.any issues with this along with the pr valve in valve chamber?,this is a 59 ab setting the valve to .012 abd .014 is this ok for a quiet engine?
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| supereal | -- 08-31-2011 @ 3:01 PM |
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The clearances are, for exhaust .014 to .016. Intakes .010 to .012. I've been setting valves for over half a century, yet I always seem to manage having a noisy one. I hope your sloppy wrist pin fixes the noise. Wrist pins are usually less noisy than piston slap. Stock 59AB engines have a relief oil valve in the valve chamber. There were two oil pumps used, one with a relief valve in the pump, the other without. The one without the relief has the intake fastened directly to the pump. The other uses an intake on a pipe connected to the pump. Your post started with a concern over a dry valve chamber. Did you ever find out why oil distribution wsa apparently low? It might be wise to replace the pump while you have the engine apart. Most of them now are the 80# variety. This message was edited by supereal on 8-31-11 @ 3:02 PM
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| Bill Wright | -- 08-31-2011 @ 6:39 PM |
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So what oil pressure should these engines run. #'s @ Freeway Speed? #'s @ 25-35 MPH? #'s @ Idle? Don't Believe Everything You Think! Bill Wright
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| supereal | -- 09-01-2011 @ 6:00 AM |
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In most cases, the oil pump is rated at 40 pounds (later is 80), but the cold pressure is about 30 and drops as engine temperature rises. At idle, the gauge generally shows little or no pressure, but don't worry, there is enough to protect the moving parts. This tends to drive many owners nuts, but the wide clearances of these old engines means that, at most speeds, there is a shower of oil inside to provide enough lubrication. I run 20-50 weight oil in the summer. It helps to keep a bit more pressure if you run at highway speeds. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. If you are still concerned, install a mechanical gauge as an add-on.
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| Bill Wright | -- 09-01-2011 @ 2:58 PM |
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I have a '39 Merc in my '37. Skat rotating assembly,Harmon Collins cam. At startup I get 50# or more. As it warms up and at 50-60 miles an hour I get maybe 20-25# And nearly nothing at idle. I have an Isspro mech. gauge,I thought was faulty and installed an old Stewart Warner Mech gauge. They mimic the factory dash gauge nearly pound for pound. Are these normal pressures? Straight 40W Castrol? Don't Believe Everything You Think! Bill Wright
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| Bill Wright | -- 09-01-2011 @ 4:05 PM |
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Will changing to a "Melling" or High velocity pump improve the oil pressure? Don't Believe Everything You Think! Bill Wright
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| supereal | -- 09-01-2011 @ 5:00 PM |
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These flatheads have lasted for decades with the oil pressure being very low, particularly when hot. The bearing clearances, by modern standards, are very loose. Many early engines, Chevy for example, ran for decades using a "dip"system, rather than full pressure oiling. If you look at modern oil pressure gauges, which are becoming scarce, you seldom see numbers on them, just a range. If you are obsessing over old Ford oil pressure, you need to calm down and enjoy the ride!
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| Bill Wright | -- 09-02-2011 @ 11:45 AM |
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Calming down. Too Close for Rockets,switching to Guns!! Thank You. Don't Believe Everything You Think! Bill Wright
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| DONALD | -- 09-08-2011 @ 12:52 PM |
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Well finally got engine all back togeather and redid the duel exhaust i paid someone to do, i have found out when working on the old cars you are better off to to the work yourself,if possible, fired the engine and it purred like a kitten,really quiet and the knock was gone,,i had no 7 wrist pin bushing replaced and fitted, now i hope to set body on the chassis and enstall the new floorpans. thanks for all the help.DP
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