| 40guy | -- 06-18-2011 @ 7:38 PM |
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My 40' quit on me today in the heat. I took a plug wire loose and had no spark. After it cooled off a while, it started right up and ran fine. Is there away to check the coil and condenser with a meter to see if they are bad or going bad?
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| trjford8 | -- 06-18-2011 @ 8:31 PM |
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You have the classic signs of a bad coil. If it's an original coil it needs to be rebuilt. Send it to Skip for a rebuild, you'll be glad you did.
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| 40guy | -- 06-18-2011 @ 8:44 PM |
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Yes I feel Skip will be recieving mail from me soon. The coil was rebuilt years ago by someone else. Do you know if Skip has the correct condenser?
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| trjford8 | -- 06-19-2011 @ 6:58 AM |
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He should have the correct condensor.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 06-19-2011 @ 7:23 AM |
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If you have had the coil rebuilt, the symptoms are classic of both the coil and the condenser. Order in a NAPA FA49 and put it in before sending your rebuilt coil out for another rebuild.
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| supereal | -- 06-19-2011 @ 10:00 AM |
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Some of the "rebuild" years ago consisted of opening the coil case and pouring in an insulating compound, such as epoxy. In some cases, it worked well. in others, where the insulation between the winding was breached, it resulted in poor performance. The continuity of the windings can be checked with an ohmeter, as can the condenser. The primary winding of the coil will measure between .47 to .51 ohms at room temperature. The secondary, 5800 phms. This only tells you is the windings are not broken, but not the condition of the dilectric. The condenser can be checked with the same meter. With the meter set on high opms, touch the leads across the condenser, then revererse them. The needle should jump if it is OK. If it doesn't, the condenser is open. If the needle swings over, and stays, the condenser is shorted. Both coil and condenser are heat sensitive, with resistance rising, and output falling as the temp goes up.
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| swmddo | -- 06-20-2011 @ 6:43 AM |
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I, too, am now having trouble with either the coil or dist. I performed the steps Bob indicated, checking the ohms across the capacitor, and it did what it was supposed to. Hooking the ohm meter to the wire going to the distributor and the other to ground, the resistance went up when I cranked it, but not back down..probably a points problem, eh? With everything hooked up, there was no spark from the high tension wire from the coil. The voltage across the coil, with ignition on, was 5.86V, and when I cranked it, it went to 4.3V. Perhaps I have multiple problems: points not closing and bad coil? Thanks Steve
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| supereal | -- 06-20-2011 @ 8:56 AM |
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You check the coil with it disconnected from the system. A resistance test will only confirm if the winding is intact, not if the insulation has been breached. Remember that the primary and secondary windings are joined at the input terminal when you hook up your meter. If you check voltage with the coil installed, you should read about 3.5 volts with the points closed, and battery, about 6.5-7 when the points open. As your closed reading seems a bit high, I'd check the resistor under the dash and see what the output voltage is with the points closed. As for coils, we just send them out to be rebuilt, as 99+% of original coils will not function properly.
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| swmddo | -- 06-20-2011 @ 9:08 AM |
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Thanks. This coil is not original, after-market, tubular,"no external resistance needed"... The resistance I checked was with it out in my hands. This coil has been out of the car for 6 months, as I was rebuilding the engine. Never had problems with it before, but... I didn't mess with the distributor, but perhaps I need to do a bit more diagnosing of that...downside is that for this '48, I have to almost remove the fan assembly to get to it...:-( Steve
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| supereal | -- 06-20-2011 @ 9:49 AM |
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If you are using a modern tubular coil, you need to bypass the resistor under the dash because the modern coil has a built in resistor. Removing the fan is always the best way to get at the distributor. If you have ignition problems after a long period of disuse, I'd pull the distributor and replace the points, as they can oxidize if well worn. If you have a place to have it set up by machine, that is best. Your distributor has two set of points, and it isn't unusual to find one set in bad shape, particularly if the condenser is old. Be sure to buy good quality point sets. The market is full of very poor foreign made sets with soft rubbing blocks, weak springs, and poorly threaded terminals. Ask when you buy whether the points are of good quality. If you see signs of wear or burning, also replace the rotor and inner cap.
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| swmddo | -- 06-20-2011 @ 10:55 AM |
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Got it..thanks much! I was pleased to see that the rotor and cap looked in very good shape...maybe not so for the points. They worked for over a year before I took the engine out to rebuild it. Had the dist in a zip lock bag for 6 months...never know what could happen. Regarding the resistor, I don't have the typical fuse block resistor...just a connection bus that simulates that, per C&Gs wiring harness set and instructions. Worked well so far. A replacement coil might be in the offing...but will check the dist first. Thanks again! Steve
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| parrish | -- 06-20-2011 @ 11:22 AM |
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Who sells the correct points?
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| supereal | -- 06-20-2011 @ 1:16 PM |
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We buy ours from C&G.
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| swmddo | -- 06-24-2011 @ 2:15 PM |
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One more question: I replaced the points in my distributor for the '48 59AB engine, the one with the distributor on the crankshaft. The old points were in bad shape. Once I replaced them, the distributor seemed to be much more difficult to turn...not even able to do so by hand. Is this normal? Before I changed the points, I could turn the distributor very easily.... UPDATE: I believe this is not normal...for some reason the plate is not sitting down far enough, and once I put in the snap ring and timing screw, things get way too tight. Not sure what I did... Thanks Steve This message was edited by swmddo on 6-24-11 @ 3:17 PM
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| Stroker | -- 06-24-2011 @ 4:31 PM |
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No, this is not normal. I'd disassemble the distributor and find the problem. Points do not contribute much to rotational torque, so I guess you have reassembled the distributor incorrectly.
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| supereal | -- 06-24-2011 @ 4:36 PM |
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I'm assuming you mean that the distributor mounts on the camshaft, as does all flathead distributors until the 8ba in '49. The distibutor shaft does encounter some resistance if the point springs have the correct tension. This is normal, unless you have the poor quality foreign made points so often sold today. The snap ring should fit easily in the groove if the unit is correctly assembled.
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| swmddo | -- 06-24-2011 @ 4:52 PM |
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Oops...I meant the camshaft. I will try to see why it isn't right...thanks for verifying for me. Steve
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| swmddo | -- 06-24-2011 @ 6:20 PM |
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The locking ring is not seating properly, and that is keeping the plate slightly off center, and that is what is making it tight. It seems there is a very fine line between getting the plate in properly and not. So far, I've found out how NOT to get it in... Steve
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| 40 Coupe | -- 06-25-2011 @ 4:23 AM |
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If the screws used for mounting the new points are too long they will interfere with the mechanical advance mechanism, under the point plate and cause binding and the point plate will not fit correctly. When trying to test a condenser that you suspect is failing under heat,to see if it is good, you have to heat it before testing it on any meter. Unless you truly understand what you are doing and looking at with the meter I would suggest just changing the condenser. Because a coil is marked "no resistor needed" does not mean you should remove the resistor. The coil may draw excessive current for the points causing premature damage to them from arcing. The Ford distributor points are only good for about 3 amps load, if you want them to last. To change out the Ford coil to a modern style I suggest you see several of "Bubbas" postings on fordbarn.com he explains this very well.
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| supereal | -- 06-25-2011 @ 7:37 AM |
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To determine whether a non stock coil needs a resistor, place a voltmeter between the input terminal of the coil and ground. Turn on the ignition and watch the meter. With the points closed, the reading should not exceed about 3.5 volts (not amps). If the reading is higher, a resistor is needed. If the reading is within range, the coil has a built-in resistor. The resistor is important as a sort of voltage regulator to prevent point burning as the system voltage rise at speed. I mention the condenser check to aid in determining what actually happened when the engine quit. Replacement is usually done, but given the uneven quality of today's parts, if you have a good one, reuse it.
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| swmddo | -- 06-25-2011 @ 2:41 PM |
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Thanks to all. My coil reads 3.4-3.5 volts with the ignition switch on. However, I just realized that the new/replacement base of the points (the stationary one) may be THINNER than the old ones, thus causing the binding of the screws...will have to check it out. Steve
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| swmddo | -- 06-25-2011 @ 4:01 PM |
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I think I've found the problem! The small retaining ring around the shaft under the lobes is out of round, thus preventing the plate from seating down all the way. I am trying to figure a way using just needle nose pliers to get that ring back in without getting it out of round again. UPDATE: The small ring was messed up when I took the plate off to replace the points. I was unable to get it back in place and have it tight enough to allow the plate to go over it. Seeing as this is a pretty much closed piece, with the timing screw and the large ring, I opted to leave the small ring out. Steve This message was edited by swmddo on 6-25-11 @ 4:29 PM
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| swmddo | -- 06-26-2011 @ 8:50 AM |
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Points work now, but still no spark. The resistance goes up and down with jumper between distributor and coil. I have other issues, too. The horn shouldn't honk unless the engine is running, right? I get a shock when beeping the horn, too. I am frustrated, as I don't believe I've changed any of the wiring connections from when it ran fine. Do I have a polarity problem, possibly? Would that prevent the coil from working? Maybe I need a new coil...I hate to spend $$ when I don't know what's wrong. Steve
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| deluxe40 | -- 06-26-2011 @ 10:40 AM |
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SWMDDO - In my opinion, it's time to package up the coil, condenser and distributor and send them off to Skip (or another vendor with a distributor machine) to be set up properly and tested. You might have a weak coil and/or condenser and you probably have either a bad set of new points or a mis-assembled distributor. In any case, it is hard to set the dwell properly without a distributor machine. You might be able to get the car to run again, but it won't be optimal. ( I also wouldn't go on tour again without a coil rebuilt by Skip). I think your horn problem is unrelated. There is voltage on the horn wire that runs from the horn relay up the steering column even when the key and engine are off. When you push the horn button this wire is grounded, closing the horn relay and honking the horn. If the insulation between the inside part of the horn ring that makes the ground connection and the part you touch is gone, you become another path to ground and get a slight shock. This message was edited by deluxe40 on 6-26-11 @ 10:55 AM
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| swmddo | -- 06-26-2011 @ 11:26 AM |
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Deluxe40, thanks. I was about to that point, but it helps when you get some additional insight. Thanks to all Steve
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| supereal | -- 06-26-2011 @ 12:11 PM |
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I suspect that one of the point sets is not closing. One set "makes" the circuit, the other "breaks" it. If only one set is making contact, you will see the needle on an ohmmeter jump as it makes contact, but there is no saturation of the coil to produce the spark. As for the horn, it is alway "hot", and should blow as long as the battery is connected. The shock you feel is from the horn relay. When you release the horn button or ring, the magnetic field around the relay coil collapes and generates a spike that is transmitted back to the horn ring. Many manufacturers used a wire with a builtin resistor in the wire to eliminate the shock. It can also be done by placing a small resistor between the wire to the relay and the relay itself.
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| swmddo | -- 06-26-2011 @ 4:10 PM |
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Possibly so, but in examining the new set of points in the distributor, they appeared to be doing what they were supposed to do. very frustrating. UPDATE: I get a spark, albeit a weak one, from a high tension test wire from the coil. That indicates to me that the points are working. Could be now, a condenser, OR coil problem. Steve This message was edited by swmddo on 6-27-11 @ 6:08 AM
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