| MOXIE | -- 06-16-2011 @ 4:42 PM |
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What makes us smarter today then 30 years ago? What I’m referring to is engine cooling. I’m reading an article in a 30-year-old V8 time’s magazine. It’s called Paul’s Garage and in it he states that in order for the flathead to run cooler you need to keep the water in the radiator as long as possible to remove the heat. He suggested putting in thermostats to slow the water down or if none available, to put in washers with a 5/8” hole. The washer with the small hole would slow the water and keep it in the radiator longer. I do not think anybody agrees to that theory today, especially the folks who make a good living by rebuilding or selling new high flow pumps. Thirty years ago there were more flatheads on the road then now. Looks like they would have more smarts about keeping an engine cool then our shade tree experts today.
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| 40guy | -- 06-16-2011 @ 7:43 PM |
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There was also a time when medical science thought cutting people and letting them bleed was good for some ailments; then science learned better. With that said; when it comes to vehicles, there is certainly more technology to possibly achieve better results in some areas of our old Fords. More studies have been made, parts have been improved,etc. Thats my "pros" side. On the "con" side,I don't agree with every new idea that comes along. Everyone must make decisions based on the best information we have at the time. If something worked 75 years ago and still works it was obviously a good idea regardless of what anyone says. I'm just saying, sometimes "improvements" can make something worse. The bottom line is we have to make decisions based on the information we have, as well as our experience as to what has worked for us individually. Thats my slant on it.
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| trjford8 | -- 06-16-2011 @ 7:45 PM |
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Moxie, 30 years ago guys cooled or tried to cool a flathead based on "theories" expounded by old time mechanics. As you know they sometimes worked and sometimes didn't work. There was a lot of variables including how clean the block and radiator were at the time they applied the theory. Later it was determined that moving more water and moving it faster would aid in cooling.I suspect that this method came into being with late model motors that were designed to run hot due to smog regulations. Somehow they needed to keep them cool enough to make the motor function properly. It was determined that they need to move more water. Technology is always evolving , just like going from the Model A to the flathead V-8, the engineers are always looking for new ways to make things better. The high volume pumps have made life a lot better for many flathead fans. The rebuilt coils and the adapters to run a modern coil have also made life better for flathead fans. At some point we will see a 97 carbruetor that is actually a fuel injection unit. We will get better mileage, have more power and it will still look stock. It all comes down to "American Ingenuity".
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| supereal | -- 06-16-2011 @ 8:38 PM |
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Well said, Tom. Many of the old urban myths pop up now and then, and need to be refuted. I suspect that they will always be with us, propagated by some who never hold a wrench.
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-16-2011 @ 11:58 PM |
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Bob, I suspect that you may be referring to those venerable old time V8ers who can proudly lift their hoods in order to display the neat row of wooden clothespins on the fuel lines. How dare you question what works for them? Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 6-16-11 @ 11:59 PM
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| alanwoodieman | -- 06-17-2011 @ 5:11 AM |
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Well Moxie to answer your question. I live in the hot humid south and have owned/worked on/driven flathead Fords for almost 40 years. They got hot no matter what I did,except for one, (get to that some other time) and then along came the high volumn water pumps the lack of thermostats, water wetter, etc that is current knowledge and lo and behold the same engine in the same car with the same radiator didn't over heat ran a lot cooler, even in traffic--I am a convert. What do you "drive" and where do you live?
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| MOXIE | -- 06-17-2011 @ 6:42 AM |
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I live in KY and have a 35 coupe. It does not run hot but I have all the improvements on it that people recommended. I do all my motor work but only as a hobby because I enjoy it. I’m not saying not to use the high flow pumps or the other stuff, I was just asking what changed people’s thinking from no flow to flow. Of course the “Paul’s Garage” column may have been just his opinion and no one else. He did state at the first of his article that no cooling system would work unless you have a good radiator and the system is clean. I think that would even go for today. Supereal, if somebody had of driven there 1935 car in your shop in 1980 and it was running hot and the system was clean and radiator in good condition, how would you of fixed it then.
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| supereal | -- 06-17-2011 @ 7:03 AM |
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I would start with a compression test to see if there was a head gasket leak. If the test was inconclusive, I would put our combustion analyzer in the neck of the radiator to confirm the condition. If OK, I'd check the tension and condition of the belts. I'd ask the owner if any recent work took place on any part of the vehicle, including the brakes. We have seen brake buildup due to faulty master cylinder adjustment that caused the brakes to be gradually applied, causing excess load. I could go on, but the idea is to diagnose to pinpoint the cause. The old suggestion to slow down coolant flow to "allow the radiator to work" is just baloney. Slowing down the flow simply means the coolant arrives much hotter, taxing the finite ability of the system to transfer the heat to the air, a "zero sum" situation. I've had some real "head scratchers" in my time. A couple of weeks ago, we had an Audi in the shop with a heating problem that no one could find. We discovered that the plastic water pump impeller was slipping on it's shaft, something that had eluded the others who looked at it. I don't think we are smarter that those of years gone by. We just have had many more years experience than early mechanics to fall back on.
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| TomO | -- 06-20-2011 @ 3:16 PM |
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A physics professor wrote an informative article on cooling for Skinned Knuckles a few years ago. It was so technical that most people reading it would fall asleep after the first paragraph. The article gave the mathematical formulas to support the theory of faster moving coolant would keep the engine cooler. I always thought that the slowing down theory came from the old circle track racers. They broke every other fin off of the water pumps to get the edge in horsepower. We even tried running with no impeller on the water pumps, unfortunately that was only good in the 25 lap races. Tom
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| Stroker | -- 06-20-2011 @ 3:34 PM |
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TomO: A variation of the "broken-fin, missing impeller" school of non-thought, was to drill holes in the impellers so they would cavitate. I've been guilty of that, and installing washers in place of the thermostats. Moving coolant faster makes more sense to me today, than allowing it to "dwell" in the radiator, as no matter how big and efficient your radiator might be, the flathead block has enough hot-pockets to benefit from rapid flow.
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-20-2011 @ 5:12 PM |
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TomO, If memory serves me, there was another 'expert' who wrote an article for Skinned Knuckles who spouted the "Too Fast" theory. I shot back a rebuttal to his argument that drew his ire in the next issue. My subscription ran out and was not renewed. Skinned Knuckles was a decent magazine, but once burned, twice shy. Alan
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| supereal | -- 06-21-2011 @ 10:22 AM |
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As a former (read "old") stock car racer, I can tell you that we either removed every other vane on the water pump impeller, or drilled them to prevent the pumps from tossing out the coolant thru the overflow. We ran in second gear on the short tracks, which meant the engines were screaming most of the time. We seldom allowed the engines to idle, as they were sure to boil. That presented problems when the race was stopped to clear wreckage, etc. Original Ford pumps are, contrary to popular opinion, quite efficient. They are designed to produce necessary circulation under a variety of speeds.
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| TomO | -- 06-22-2011 @ 8:41 AM |
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Another thing we did to get an edge was to make the generator inoperable to reduce drag. Our stock cars were 48, 49 and 50 Fords with pressurized systems, so throwing water out the overflow was not a problem. Tom
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| supereal | -- 06-22-2011 @ 9:55 AM |
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Ours were mostly '37-'39. We did have a '34 coupe, but it had been thru a fire, and couldn't be restored. The others were better, and I have regrets now that we butchered them. The racing game was a great place to learn engine work, as we almost always had to do a tear down at least once a week. They were "real" cars, compared to the "modifieds" now on the track that are built from scratch. I shouldn't complain, I guess, as we lease engines to those racers, as building them can run into the thousands.
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| drkbp | -- 06-22-2011 @ 10:51 AM |
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Moxie, Now you've done it. <grin> It's like asking the T Model bunch whether you should run coils or a distributor! My short answer is it depends which block, 21 stud or 24 stud, you are talking about. I drive 21 stud, pump in head engines. Assuming the basics (radiator, block, ignition etc.) are all good to very good operating condition: If you are talking about a 1933-1936 V8 85 Hp, the car came new with thermostats. They were in the upper hoses and I posted the Ford part pictures for the '33-'36's on a thread several months ago. The pumps push the water out of the heads and at 45-50 mph you will probably see blowby out of the cap and onto your engine and firewall if you run without them in the summer time, 90+ degrees. The washer will keep it from blowing out the cap too. I use thermostats but have seen the washers used. If you are talking about a 1937 without blockout plates, running the block mounted pumps it should not be that much of a problem to run without thermostats because the pumps are pushing into the block. Much better cooling system correction made by Ford in '37. Numerous '37 21 stud engines are run with '36 and earlier heads and block out plates which gives the same problem of the earlier blocks, blowby out the radiator cap. They had inserted main bearings and used to be a popular replacement for an early block car. If you have a '38 and up, I would not think your pumps could push it through the block fast enough to get it out the radiator cap. I have not driven a later model 24 stud on the highway enough to know. If your radiator isn't good and the car isn't running/driving correctly, you will have nothing but the trouble the guys are talking about. There just really isn't much of a substitute for a good radiator. Ken in Texas
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| curts41 | -- 06-25-2011 @ 10:01 AM |
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Can I muddy the water a little bit. I am a die hard flatty guy. I have a 50 merc and overheating has become a way of life. I am not sure what all this means, but I posed the problem to a finite element engineer and he did a sample air flow study of my car. He determined that the biggest problem is the amount of air taken in versus the available area for this air to exit. Even louvers don't help that much. He is guessing that the air burbles under the hood and does not get out fast enough. He suggested to create some type of low pressure area under the car to suck out the air. Just another twist on the subject.
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| supereal | -- 06-25-2011 @ 10:54 AM |
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I doubt that the design of the car has much to do with your problem. Hundreds of thousands of these cars were built, and did not have the heating so often reported when they were newer. Often, the air flow into and around the radiator was directed by baffles and fan shrouds to minimize low speed heating. There is plenty of space under and around the engine to allow the air to escape. A more common cause of overheating is a thin coating of lime inside the block. This is the result of using plain tap water over the years. It is a very effective insulator, and a very small coating can reduce efficiency by nearly half. Backflushing and other remedies seldom produce much improvement. When we rebuild an engine, we boil the block in a chemical hot tank, and the amount of lime, core sand, and plain crud that is released can be amazing.
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