| thespringman | -- 03-23-2011 @ 6:50 PM |
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have a 36 lb block without main bering caps. Any chance that caps from another block could be made to fit? I assume that they were assembled at the factory and line bored with the block and caps them being a set.
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| supereal | -- 03-23-2011 @ 8:21 PM |
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It is unlikely the a poured bearing block can be salvaged unless the bearings are repoured and rebored. Even if you locate new caps, they would have be at least line honed to fit the crank to the correct clearance. This is also true of an insert block.
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| ford38v8 | -- 03-23-2011 @ 10:02 PM |
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Springman, Super is the authority on this subject, but I'll offer my layman take on situation you have: I'd think that assuming you locate substitute caps, the block/cap mating surfaces would have to be milled sufficiently to allow a line-bore that wouldn't go oversize for the new inserts. This should work assuming there isn't a significant sideways shift on the caps as mounted. Super, how'd I do? Alan
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| alanwoodieman | -- 03-24-2011 @ 6:19 AM |
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you have a 36 LB block which is the Liner Bearing block that was first produced that year-liner bearings also known as insert bearing (modern name) you might be able to use the bearing caps from a 37-38 21 stud engine?? Of course some machine work would be necessary. I have some caps off of a 40 engine, maybe you could try them?
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| supereal | -- 03-24-2011 @ 11:14 AM |
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Alan: I didn't know I had been elevated to the position of "authority"! Maybe now we can increase our shop labor rate! There are two main (no pun) problems with changing the caps. They must be correct in two dimensions, the linearity of the caps, so all line up in the horizontal axis of the block, and the concentricity of the openings to accomodate inserts. These dimensions are measured in thousanths. It is unlikely that there would be enough stock to re-line bore or hone to fit, and still accomodate even oversize bearings, even if the caps and block were milled. The assembly is bored and honed at manufacture. That is why it isn't usually possible to mix up main or rod caps, as they are mated. When we do cylinder boring, we have to be careful that the main caps are correct so the mandrel in the machine holds the block in alignment.
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| drkbp | -- 03-26-2011 @ 7:51 PM |
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Alanwoodieman, You are probably correct. I was curious the other day when this thread started and just looked at the inserts I have. I have a '36 LB block as a spare and some NORS Monmouth main bearing inserts for it. The box is marked "'36-'38 Ford Main Bearing". Some of the suppliers show a "'37-'38" cap and inserts @ .20, and so on depending on the grind. Might very well be that the crank caps are the same, late '36 thru '38. I have a '38 engine too that is rebuilt but don't remember the caps. Ken in Texas
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 03-27-2011 @ 10:33 AM |
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if you had the caps and a set of bearing you could just try them, if the cranks is std. use std bearing, put the bearing in the block, rotate the shaft, if no binding try a center bearing with a cap,if it still rotates with no binding try another, after you have all three in installed and have no binding, now take apart and try using plastic guage and see what kind of clearance you have, You also can do this when you do one cap at a time, it might work, its worth a shot to save the block, a good engine rebuilder should be able to center bore the block, the problem is finding oversize bearing after the block is oversized, 37RAGTOPMAN
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| ford38v8 | -- 03-27-2011 @ 11:32 AM |
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37ragtopman, Supereal is "a good engine rebuilder", and he tells us that a block with mismatched bearing caps is probably not salvageable. Perhaps you know of a better engine rebuilder than he? Alan
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 03-27-2011 @ 2:19 PM |
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ford38v8 all was saying I would give it a try and it did NOT work, Would send out and have it the mains bored out, thowing out maybe salvageable blocks will come to a end one of these days, there are a lot of capable rebuilders still around, you just have to seek them out, I know superreal knows what he is talking about. do you think the guy should throw the engine out and give up without a trying to salvage it.? right now I am sorry I even said anthing about it, I will probably pass next time, just my 3 cents worth 37 RAGTOPMAN, I rebuilt my own 37 motor back in 1976 by myself, a friend worked in a auto machine shop, did the valve seats, and bored the engine out and I had the crank cut,assembled the engine with not problems, I was a auto mechanic for a few shops and had my own business for 15 years, it is really not that hard to do, taking your time . This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 3-27-11 @ 2:20 PM
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| Stroker | -- 03-27-2011 @ 4:15 PM |
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I think this thread has probably gone beyond the original question posed by thespringman. Since he started the thread, he has not enlightened any of us as to how badly he needs to return this block to service. Given enough time and money, new main caps can be carved out of billet stock, as has been done by many a racer that needed a stouter center main for a high powered motor. If that wasn't enough, Don Fergueson of Ardun racing fame will build a full girdle in lieu of the wimpy original 3-main set up. Caps can be made, the block can be salvaged, but without some feedback on the scope of the project on the part of the original poster, this dialog is becoming somewhat hypothetical.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 03-27-2011 @ 5:23 PM |
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stoker you are correct. given enough time and money anything can done, putting a set of caps on a block and using a round out gauge, will tell how far if any they are out., 37RAGTOPMAN
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| supereal | -- 03-27-2011 @ 8:31 PM |
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When we build race car engines we often install special main caps. However, these caps must be machined to match the crank to be used. The problem with used caps is that they have already been machined, and have no excess stock to permit reboring. Almost always engines that have been stripped of main caps, etc, were junked due to incurable damage. I sympathize with anyone wishing to save a block, but most don't want to spend the higher cost of the work involved. We recently reclaimed big bore Chevy block that had damage due to a tossed rod, but it was one of our leased engines, and cost wasn't a consideration. This has been an interesting thread, and I hope not worked to death.
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| thespringman | -- 03-31-2011 @ 12:32 PM |
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Sorry for the delay in responding to the replys to my question. You confirmed what I suspected was the case and that is that the block and caps were a matched set from the Ford factory which would explain why I couldn't find a part number for the caps in the copy of the green book I have. As to the project, I have retired and am trying to restore a 36 Cabriolet back to original condition. I have had the vehicle since the late 1950's but it has mostly been in storage. It is basically in good shape excpt for some rust in the floor pans (Paul Bradley finally got around to running a batch of them and I got one of the first ones). Unfortunately when I was young and foolish the main bearings gave out and I took the easy way out and put in a 21 stud block with insert bearings but with the water pumps in the block. Now that haunts me as the water pump block off plates on the later engine make it obvious that it is not the "correct" engine for that year. How far will I go to get the correct looking engine in the car depends on how much it will cost as funds are not unlimited. I would also want to have the LB block checked over very carefully before proceeding as I would hate to drop a lot of money into it only to find a problem. From the comments it sounds like it might be possible to line bore out new caps to match the block. Any thoughts on the idea to metal spray caps from a different block to get a little extra metal to allow for machining? Could also spray the block but then it might be difficult to locate the center of the bearings. Again, thanks for your input and the car will be back on the road with or without a '36 moter in it and will not be made into a rod as long as I am around.
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| supereal | -- 03-31-2011 @ 2:14 PM |
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I know this heresy, but unless you are planning to build a concourse correct car, I'd opt for the best engine I could find, regardless of year. This certainly doesn't diminish those who do want to make them "as Henry built them", when the majority of those who view our cars really are not that impressed. Having a car that is reliable and fun to actually drive is the essence of the hobby. Many, if not most, of us old enough to remember these cars are retired, or close to it, and have to watch our pennies. That is no crime, and there are plenty of us out here who love the hobby and our cars. That is what keeps the Club alive! This message was edited by supereal on 3-31-11 @ 2:17 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 03-31-2011 @ 4:28 PM |
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Springman, Your engine is not "Factory Correct" for your 1936 car, but is historically correct nonetheless, as Henry envisioned it's use in your car as a "Short Block" by the manufacture of block-off plates for the conversion. Your engine is a 1937 engine, which in itself is something to brag about, a one of a kind engine, but for overproduction of which were also installed in some 1938 cars, and produced also for the exact purpose to which you have put it, namely, as a Service Replacement Short Block specifically for earlier cars having in-head pumps. You are in the position now to instruct the majority of those V8'ers who look under your hood, as most will have never seen a blockoff plate, and you can sign autographs for them as one who did exactly as Henry predicted. Historical accuracy is without a doubt well served here, and were he alive today, Henry Ford would smile on you and your Ford as a pair of survivors. As a Purist myself, I know that you are not completely satisfied with my justification of your incorrect engine, but I also have the happy news that your Service Replacement block will cost you a mere 20 points should you enter your Ford for point judging on a EFV8CA Concourse. As Supereal posted earlier, it's about having fun after all. Alan
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 03-31-2011 @ 5:24 PM |
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springman what if you installed a set of caps and used a dial indicator and see what the run out is. FORD bored out a lot of engines, and made std bearings that they used on all the engine they line bored, I would think they should be close, they did not have lots of bearings to chose from fitting every engine different, this was a mass produed engine,and assembley was rapid to say the least, FORD had a system that worked well. remember a dial indiactor would tell you if the hole is oblong, if it is true, I would install the bearing and crank and see if it turns, with no binding, then use plastic gauge to see if you have the correct clearance,on the main and rods, just my 3 cents 37RAGTOPMAN
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| thespringman | -- 03-31-2011 @ 9:37 PM |
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Thanks for your input and support, I guess that maybe I was trying to do something that is not that important since this will not be a concourse vehicle, I do intend to drive it and enjoy gently using it since that is part of a great hobby. I have two good 37 or 38 engines that would require very little effort to get cleaned up and running. Maybe just rings, a valve job and new bearing inserts as both are low mileage. Makes more sense to spend the money on other things to make the car look as it should. Seems like everything in this hobby costs so much lately - even the paint and I need to get the project done so I can enjoy it while I can although my Dad was driving his 1924 Chrysler Touring until he passed away at 80. Again thanks for the support.
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| alanwoodieman | -- 04-01-2011 @ 9:24 AM |
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I still would try to locate a set of caps for this engine, regardless if you use it or not. Proper caps and a line bore would save this engine. A friend who builds engines and I just for the "H" of it swapped some caps between 39-41 engines and to our amazment they were identicle, or so close that a line bore would have made them good, so never say never
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-02-2011 @ 5:39 AM |
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alanwoodieman I with you, save the engine,!!! NOT MADE ANYMORE,!!! I also think how far could the caps be off, being FORD bored thousands even millions,and only had one set to bearing, I am sure these boring machine were kept on specs, this was not a hand fitted engine,it was massed produced, Put the caps on and torque down,then a simple bore gauge will tell you instanly if it is out of round, my 3 cents worth, 37 RAGTOPMAN
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| supereal | -- 04-02-2011 @ 11:02 AM |
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The reason the caps are unique to a particular engine is because of differences in the block casting itself. They are attached to the block before boring, which compensates for any differences. The main bearing clearance is very tight, between.000 to .003, literally leaving no room for error.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-02-2011 @ 6:06 PM |
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superreal If you read my post entirely,.all I was saying it might be worth a try,if it does not work, go to plan B 37RAGTOPMAN
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