Topic: ETHANOL FUEL

zuktom	-- 11-01-2010 @ 3:05 PM
	We are now going to 15% ethanol and no one in the area is selling fuel without it. Will this hurt my 36 or is thier an addative thanks tom
Stroker	-- 11-01-2010 @ 3:52 PM
	Tom: There is no "additive". About the best you can do is to make sure your fuel delivery system can handle the extreme solvent properties of ethanol. You may have to rebuild your carb with alcohol-resistant parts, and you will probably also have to replace the fuel pump diaphragm with an alcohol-resistant part. An additional problem is that if you are still running the original fuel tank, it will have a coating on the inside of varnish from 74 years of regular gasoline. The ethanol will dissolve this coating, leading to a never-ending filter replacement problem. Might consider replacing the tank as well. I'm sure others will weigh-in on this, but it is something we are all facing.
supereal	-- 11-01-2010 @ 4:23 PM
	In Iowa, the sale of 15% gasohol is restricted to vehicles newer than 2006. The real test will be the impact on small engines, particularly those who use gas mixed with oil. There is testing going on, but I'm not sure I trust the results. When the "new" diesel came out, we were told it wouldn't cause problems. In the "real" world, it promptly ate most of the rubber parts of the fuel system. The old car problems, as Stroker points out, largely stem from the solvent properties of ethanol. It turns any non-nitrile rubber into black goo, but doesn't seem to affect valve seats, etc, as was expected.
ford38v8	-- 11-01-2010 @ 5:33 PM
	Tom, Both Stroker and Supereal are correct, but there are two other consequences from using Ethanol: One is rust. As alcohol is compatible with and attracts water, you will experience rust in your gas tank and in your fuel line. This is a serious threat, and must be dealt with. An additive that does help to a small degree is Marvel Mystery Oil in your gas tank, 4 oz per fill up. It is not a cure all, but it helps. Another consequence is common also to the reformulated gasoline as well as Ethanol: Sticky valves. This can be diagnosed in the usual ways, the symptoms being an erratic miss. After ruling out ignition, a compression test will show the sticky valve. The cure for this, coincidentally, is Marvel Mystery Oil. This can be added by way of an under hood bottle and delivery system, or, to kill two birds with one stone, add it to your gas tank. There is no advantage whatsoever in adding MMO or any other additive to your oil. In fact, absent tests to prove compatitibility, an additive to the oil may in fact prove harmful over time. At least, that's what all the oil manufacturers tell us. I should get a commission from MMO, don't you think? Alan
TomO	-- 11-02-2010 @ 7:19 AM
	Alan, MMO can and should be added to the motor oil when you have sticky valves. The penetrating properties of MMO help lubricate the valve stems and free up the sticky valve. I would not leave it in the engine for extended periods as it may conflict with other additive in the oil. Usually MMO will free sticky valves within 100 miles. Tom
sturgis 39	-- 11-03-2010 @ 9:47 PM
	ETHANOL IS THE BIGGEST RIP OFFS OF THE UNITED STATES. IT TAKES MORE ENERGY TO PRODUCE THAN IT MAKES.THIS IS JUST PLAIN STUPID. THE COST PER GALLON IS ESTIMATED TO BE $22.00 WHICH PROBABLY DOES NOT INCLUDE ALL OF THE HIDDEN COSTS. THE GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES, THE LOWER GAS MILEAGE, THE AMOUNT OF WATER USED, THE HIGHER COST OF FOOD,THE INCREASE IN PROPANE COSTS ARE ADDITIONAL NEGATIVES. THIS IS GOING TO BITE US JUST LIKE FANNY MAE AND FREDDIE MACK. WE WOULD USE LESS ENERGY BY BURNING THE PROPANE USED TO MAKE FERTILIZER FOR THE CORN DIRECTLY IN OUR CARS. ONLY OUR GOVERNMENT WOULD SUPPORT SUCH A COSTLY PROGRAM
Early46	-- 11-03-2010 @ 10:09 PM
	Eastwood is now selling a Fuel Guard and Storage Stabilizer which supposedly will counteract the effects of Ethanol! It is apparently a new product so there are no reviews on their site. Smoke and mirrors or a really useful product?? If you find out, let us all know! Charles
supereal	-- 11-04-2010 @ 8:45 AM
	The best selling gasoline storage additive is Sta-Bil. They claim it prevents "stale" gasoline. When storing a car for a long time, the tank should either be filled to capacity to lesson air that promotes deterioration, or drained completely. As my friend, Alan, points out, ethanol is added as an "oxygenate" to reduce exhaust emissions. An unfortunate byproduct is rust in parts of the fuel system, mainly the fuel line from the tank to the firewall. I can't recall so many clogged fuel lines over the years, so I can only assume that the alcohol attacks any voids in the copper coating of the line. The stock line is just large enough to supply adequate fuel. 1/4". Any blockage will product the dreaded "vapor lock" effect to occur. At our shop, we are seeing the 10% ethanol causing problems in modern vehicles such as in-tank fuel pump failures, an expensive repair, to say the least.
TomO	-- 11-04-2010 @ 9:36 AM
	Supereal, I have heard that a discussion is ongoing about having a full tank of gasohol vs an empty tank in storage. Some people say that the extra water and corrosion properties of the newer gasoline will cause more corrosion in a full tank than would happen in an empty tank during winter storage. Eastwood claims that their preservative will inhibit the corrosion caused by gasohol. I have been keeping mine full for years, because draining and storing gasoline until it can be used is a real pain. But they keep changing the gas additives and making the decision more difficult. This year, my tank will be out of the car for winter and empty, as I have to fix a problem with the coating applied in 1979. Has anybody found a site with facts about this problem? Tom
supereal	-- 11-04-2010 @ 1:01 PM
	Tom: I am always leery about additive claims. As you know, ethanol is "hydroscopic" and attracts water, which can bead and settle to the bottom of the tank, causing rust. I have a plastic tank, and don't worry about rust but, hopefully, the reduction of air in the tank will slow the evaporation and deterioration of the fuel itself. If moisture due to temperature change is a problem. as in unheated storage, I'd add a can of methanol (Heet) which, unlike ethanol, will combine with the water to form a combustible mixture. I suspect an empty tank may well create more moisture than a full one if condensation happens in the air inside. I'd opt for either a plastic or stainless tank if the car isn't used for long periods of time, anyway.
Stroker	-- 11-04-2010 @ 3:20 PM
	If "cost were no object", a stainless tank would be preferable over a plastic tank for one reason. The most aromatic components of fuel can actually pass through the polymer in a plastic tank, with the result being that the fuel becomes lower octane, along with a diminished Reid Vapor Pressure Index which while making it less susceptible to vapor lock, also makes it less easily ignited in the combustion chamber. I'm talking about long-term storage, so it may be a moot point with a daily driver. I will say that it is considered (at least by racers) very bad practice to store fuel in a plastic (polythene) fuel can. Steel is the preferred container for storage of gasoline for the above reason. Being a "plastics" person, perhaps 38 Ford V8 can further elucidate. Of course as previously mentioned by Supereal, our tanks are freely vented to the atmosphere, so they WILL pick up moisture with ethanol. While I'm a "Corn State" resident, I completely agree with Sturgis 39 on ethanol. The stuff is cr*p, and barely acceptable as a motor fuel. All of my daily drivers have plastic tanks, and I will probably opt for one for my 38, as my pockets are't quite deep enough for stainless. I would never replace my ancient tar-lined original tank with a steel one for the reasons outlined by Supereal. I'm afraid we are stuck with ethanol until someone puts politics aside and starts embracing science.
ford38v8	-- 11-04-2010 @ 4:41 PM
	Dan, I had intended to let my previous post stand on this subject, but as you requested my further input, I will endow you with my limited knowledge regarding polyethylene versus stainless steel for our purposes. I would opt for stainless steel for the reason that it is more correct for the cars, and will accept a coat of paint, unlike polyethylene. I haven't seen any study relating to poly being a less secure container for aromatics, but don't doubt your statement, as the poly product used for gas tanks is of low density. in any case, I would think that the vented system would be more of a factor in this than the tank itself. I can verify Bob's modern fuel pump replacement costs. My modern just cost me a fat bundle of money for a pump/sender. Sturgis, I stand with you and your anger over ethanol, but your ALL CAPS is hurting my ears! The entire ethanol program has nothing to do with sustainable production or of saving the environment, and everything to do with propping up farm prices, and corn in particular. Long ago, it was shown that if ethanol production were a valid goal which it is not, that potatoes would be the crop of choice for a plethora of reasons, but the Corn Lobby has always been king of the hill. Being a "plastics man", as dan pointed out, I would be less than honest if I knocked chemicals altogether, but with the knowledge we have today of the widespread harm done by chemicals in farming and food production, we have demonstrated the same lack of concern as we had for the banking and financial industry before the collapse. The ethanol issue may be the best understood while being least likely to change for the better. Alan
JebNY	-- 11-04-2010 @ 6:30 PM
	Was thinking, would sealing the gas filler pipe or exchange for a ventless cap for the Winter cut down on moisture build up problem in the E-gas in the tank for the Winter? Jim... 1950 F1 Stake
supereal	-- 11-05-2010 @ 8:01 AM
	Probably, but in a minor amount. My plastic tank has an outboard vent that fits up into the left rear wheel well, so an unvented cap wouldn't help much, anyway. The principal gripe about alcohol fuels is the affinity for moisture. What hasn't been discussed is the fact that much of that moisture is added during the manufacturing process, rather than the atmosphere. Alcohol must be trucked or hauled by rail, rather than pipelined, due to the corrosive effect. That, in itself, should be a clue regarding suitability as motor fuel. As for leakage thru plastic, I've had my plastic tank for over ten years and, so far, it hasn't shown any signs of leakage to the eye or nose, as did the pinholes in the top of my original tank.
ole_Bill	-- 11-05-2010 @ 8:18 AM
	Guess I should consider myself lucky. About 10% of all stations here in East Tennessee sell 100% gasoline, abeit at an average of $0.04 premium over regular unleaded ethanol. I use nothing else in my '36 and all small engines. I get a chuckle when I see one of the E85 vehicles. E85 has never been available here. Chalk this up to an uninformed buyer and a sharp new car salesman.
TomO	-- 11-05-2010 @ 4:49 PM
	After searching for information on Eastwood's additive the only information that I could find was from their promotional material. That makes me even more leery of using their product. I intend to re-coat my tank and live with it for a few more years. At my age the coating will probably out last my driving time anyway. I have searched for a reproduction tank that will use the original sender and have been unable to find one. Rock Valley makes stainless tanks, but they are crude looking compared to the original tank, so that is not an option. It looks like sometime in the future, our cars will have to be modified to comply with the newer gasoline. The current administration in Washington is trying to get an energy bill passed that increase the oxygenators in motor fuel and create a whole new set of problems. I still don't understand why we subsidize corn growing for ethanol and subsidize plowing under of sugar beets that would produce the ethanol at a lower cost. Tom
JebNY	-- 11-06-2010 @ 3:14 PM
	ole_Bill, keep your eye on those good stations. We had one chain that still had real gas, then one magic day a few months ago they switched also. I was buying all my gas from them and telling them that was why and that I was telling all my friends. Every time I told them they would say they were holding out as long as they could. Not sure if there supplier refused to deliver anymore or the government forced them to change. Jim... 1950 F1 Stake
supereal	-- 11-07-2010 @ 11:52 AM
	Drake offers both steel and stainless steel tanks that closely resemble the original. Most of the replacement tanks, including Drake's, require a non-stock sender, We have put in a number of those, and if they are correctly set up, work about as well as the original. Here, in Iowa, corn prices have spiked above $5.50/bushel. I suspect that will take the wind out of the push for more gasohol. Without a tax subsidy, it is impractical, anyway. In spite of the price difference, most have discovered the 10-15% drop in MPG doesn't justify a dime's difference in per gallon price. This message was edited by supereal on 11-8-10 @ 9:58 AM

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