| Old Henry | -- 10-29-2010 @ 11:00 PM |
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After throwing out Pike's Peak as an example of the possible use for higher pressure radiator caps I suddently got the urge to take that climb to the top in my old '47 Sedan. I'd be interested in hearing other's experiences of doing the same. How 'bout it? Anyone done that and can tell about it? Still Old Henry
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| flathead4rd | -- 10-30-2010 @ 5:53 AM |
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Here's my expierence but not in a Ford. Back in 1960 I had a new 60 Chev, Impala 327 V-8. The wife and I drove it from Michigan to Colorado and while ther decided to drive to the top of Pikes Peak. Fourteen thousand one hundred ten feet, gravel road, and no guard rails. Very interesting, especially if you met another vehicle that was on the way down. Anyway, long story short, around the ten thousand feet elevation there was a major change in engine power. I had that C***y floored most of the time and could barely keep a speed of 25 MPH. The engine was starving for air the rest of the way and running very poorly. Finally made it to the top and I will say it was worth the drive. On the way down, no problems. DUH, it's downhill all the way, no engine needed. They stopped all vehicles at the 10,000 ft. level and checked your brakes. If necessary had you pull off to the side for a cool down. Once below the 10K foot level the engine started running normal again. I don't know how the road is now some fifty years later but I do recommend you do it if your there. Something you will remember for a long time. PS: Don't get out of your car and run around when you get to the top. You might get a little dizzy and pass out. Yes, they do sell oxygen up there at the visitors building.
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| Old Henry | -- 10-30-2010 @ 8:07 AM |
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I was thinking that might happen. (Loss of power at altitude.) Many years ago we were pulling our camping trailer with our van on I-70 in Colorado and as we approached the Eisenhour Tunnel at 11,158 elevation we had the same experience - severe loss of power such that we were just crawling 10-15 mph until we got over the top and started down the other side. I have sometimes advanced the timing on my distributor at higher altitudes and retarded it at lower to compensate some for the change in atmospheric pressure with some benefit. Might have to do that on the Pike's Peak climb. Still Old Henry
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| supereal | -- 10-30-2010 @ 8:58 AM |
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The problem is loss of compression due to the thinner air, and made worse by the drop in air induction. Timing changes wouldn't help much, if any. A turbo or other supercharger would, however. An altitude of 14,000 feet does do strange things to vehicles and people. The last time I was to the top of Pike's Peak it was in my new '72 Chevy pickup. It was a strong vehicle until we got 2/3 of the way to the top, then it turned into a panting monster that struggled. The temp at the base was 80. At the peak, it was in the low 30's. If you go, take a coat. For many years, "Denver" heads and brake drums were available for those in mountain states.
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| Old Henry | -- 10-30-2010 @ 12:24 PM |
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The main reason I've adjusted my timing for altitude is this: Historically, when I've gone from my high elevation home in Utah (5,000 feet) to California or Arizona, I've developed premature detonation - "pinging" - in the engine. When I back off the timing at low altitude the pinging goes away. Likewise, when I return to higher altitude, I have less power than I had before at that higher altitude so I advance the timinig and regain my power. There is, of course, a limit to the amount one can advance timing to increase power but I think every little bit will help when we climb Pike's Peak. I surmise that thinner air, meaning less fuel, takes a little longer to detonate and explode. Thus, a little earlier timing under those conditions can give the air/fuel mixture a little "head start" on the explosion before reaching maximum compression - thus increasing power some by doing that. A super charger or turbo charger could certainly help. Or, if they sold the oxygen at the bottom of the mountain, instead of at the top, one could prop it under the hood and let it "trickle" oxygen into the carburetor on the way up. Now I think that would give it a boost. What do you think? Still Old Henry This message was edited by Old Henry on 10-30-10 @ 12:36 PM
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| Stroker | -- 10-30-2010 @ 1:59 PM |
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Old: Your engine pings at low elevation because you have more compression. I think the idea of "trickling" straight O2 into the carb is a wonderful way to explore the innards of your motor, while you replace the pistons with holes, valves without heads, etc. If you wish to give your flattie a rocky mountain "high", it would be better to do it with "laughing gas" (nitrous oxide), as the metering (trickling) hardware is readily available along with the advice. Another option would be to hog out your jets, and run a methanol/nitromethane mixture in the fuel tank. This is essentially a monopropellant that is used in various racing venues. Just don't forget to drain the oil when you are done, so the breather cap doesn't punch a hole in the hood the next time you fire it up. I once roared over the summit at Berthoud with a McCulloch supercharger, and I will say it is truly rewarding passing cars 5 or 6 at a time.
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| Old Henry | -- 10-30-2010 @ 2:12 PM |
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I'll probably just creep up the hill along side the turtles and snails and enjoy the scenery. Still Old Henry
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| coftbird | -- 10-30-2010 @ 6:17 PM |
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Pike'sPeak in an old Ford - go for it. Last year I went up in a '37 pickup with 21 stud V8. It was not easy due to vapor lock and heating, but I made it. If a fellow could get gasoline without ethanol it might help. I had to use the electric fuel pump at the higher elevations to keep from vapor locking. Also about 11,000' the truck got hot and I had to shut down to let it cool off. Strangely five days earlier I had gone up Mount Evans, slightly higher, with no problems. The road is partially paved, partially gravel and partially under construction. Did not have any view when we got there. Had fog, rain, snow, sleet and hail. Did not stay long as my wife wanted down promptly. The full story is in May/June 2010 V8 Times.
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| Old Henry | -- 10-30-2010 @ 7:55 PM |
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Charlie, I read your full story in the V8 Times and loved it. But, I couldn't find anywhere when it was that you took the trip. When did you do it? It sounded like a cold time of year, at least with the cold weather you had on Pike's Peak and I was curious why your engine overheated in such cold weather. I'm thinking that your water was boiling because of the low air pressure more than overheating. Maybe I will take a higher pressure radiator cap to put on for the climb to keep that from happening. Still Old Henry This message was edited by Old Henry on 10-30-10 @ 8:01 PM
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| coftbird | -- 10-31-2010 @ 11:55 AM |
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Henry - the date was August 29, 2009. The air temperature was warm at the bottom of the hill (7,400'). When I shut down for the engine to cool at 11,000' the air temp was about 55 to 60 and engine temperature was about 200 (as best I remember). At the top air temp was at, or near, freezing. Yes I imagine the low air pressure contributed to the boiling, but the '37 truck does not have a pressure cap so there was nothing I could do about that.
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| Old Henry | -- 10-31-2010 @ 3:34 PM |
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Well, there you have it. At 11,000 feet the atmospheric pressure is only 9.7 psi allowing water to boil at 191 degrees. So, yours would have definitely been boiling over at 200. I think I will for sure get a 10 lb radiator cap to put on for the climb. Still Old Henry
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| Stroker | -- 10-31-2010 @ 3:49 PM |
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Still: I've never driven a flatmotor to 11,307 feet, although I used to take "Ralph" (my 38 wagon) up to about 9,000 to Mt. Baldy in CA. The last time I drove at high altitudes was a few years ago when I went over Berthoud in a Ford Contour. I was amazed at how well this little twin-cam 4-banger behaved at the summit. I suspect that the reason it was so tractable can be traced to the onboard computer which managed the fuel mixture. I believe you have two challenges: 1. You have correctly recognized the boiling point of water issue. 2. You are going to be running very "rich", sort of like driving with the choke out. There are adjustable main jets available for the Stromberg 97's. I know you are running a Holly 94, but you might consider switching to a 97 for this adventure. That way, when it starts to run really cr*ppy, with black smoke flowing from the tailpipe, you can simply screw-in the main jets, and continue. Just a thought..
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| Old Henry | -- 10-31-2010 @ 3:59 PM |
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So far, from the suggestions here and on the FordBarn site I'll be taking a can of starting fluid, a 10 lb. radiator pressure cap, warm clothes, camera and video equipment, advancing my timing as I go up, and maybe put my old Stromberg 97 back in and get those adjustable jets to fool with on the way up. Thanks for all of your stories and suggestions. I can't wait to go. Oh, and I think we'll include Mt. Evans, THEE highest paved road on the continent,(only 150 feet above Pike's Peak) in our itenerary. Still Old Henry This message was edited by Old Henry on 10-31-10 @ 4:02 PM
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| Stroker | -- 10-31-2010 @ 4:44 PM |
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Still: We can hardly wait for you to go. I hope you document your high altitude adventure so that us flat-landers can gain some wisdom. Here in Ioway, the highest we can reach is Hawkeye Point, which is a measly 1100 feet, close to the Minnesota border. Not much of a challenge! One of the reasons that the Southern California crowd always did well at Bonneville was that they would sort out their engines at Muroc or El Mirage dry lake in So. Cal. Bonneville is about 4,200 elevation, and El Mirage, etc. are pretty close. Elevation is a big deal when you are tuning engines for maximum performance. Air density is what we considered the "Holy grail". I've changed "pills" (jets) several times just waiting in line to run because of atmospheric conditions that dictated a change in fuel mixture. If you can maintain a stoichiometric mixture during your ascent, it will help a lot.
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| Old Henry | -- 10-31-2010 @ 4:59 PM |
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Stroker, I was just looking for adjustable jets for the Stromberg 97 when I found some for the Holly 94! Charlie Price's Vintage Speed sells them. Maybe I'll give those a try. Thanks for the idea. Still Old Henry This message was edited by Old Henry on 10-31-10 @ 5:00 PM
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| 1932BB | -- 11-01-2010 @ 6:39 AM |
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Obviously this is a departure from the main thread here, but I just have to say it. I travelled Tennessee Pass 10,424, Red Mountain Pass 11,018,and Wolf Creek Pass 10,852, and others on a 1974 BMW 900 cc (air cooled) motorcycle. Because it has Bing constant velocity carbs, the engine never lost power or missed a beat! The main metering for air and fuel is accomplished with a diaphragm that adjusts for air pressure and is about as simple and easily repaired as it is effective. No timing adjustments, no excess gas guzzling, no knocking or overheating. No computers! I'm posting this because I believe there is a similarity between old Fords and other old machines. The new computer controlled engines are nice, but simplicity we will ever miss!
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| Stroker | -- 11-01-2010 @ 2:50 PM |
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32BB: Definitely off-thread, more like BMWOA! As the owner of a 76 R90S for 34 years,(bought new), I think you have to consider that your power to weight ratio is just a little bit better than a vintage flathead. I don't have the Bings, as "S's" came with Del-Orto slides, but I'm sure it would still handle the passes just fine even without the benefit of "constant-depression" (as the Brits would say) carbs. I've always said that I don't trust anything I can't see move. You are spot-on regarding the electronics as far as trouble-shooting goes.
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| Old Henry | -- 10-15-2011 @ 8:29 PM |
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Well, we did it! Made it to the top in the '47 Ford Fordor on July 7th this year. For more details and photos click here: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19141 Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
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| Stroker | -- 10-16-2011 @ 8:52 AM |
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Old Henry: Now that was a great read! I'm kind of curious as to why you didn't go with adjustable main's though, as while your method is more precise, and probably safer, the adjustable's would have saved a lot of time. Congratulations to you and yours! "Bravo Zulu" as they'd say in the Navy. The absolute repudiation of the "trailer queen" mindset. Dan
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| Old Henry | -- 10-16-2011 @ 1:26 PM |
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I very seriously considered the adjustable ones and knew where to get them but, like you said, I wanted to be more precise than I thought I could be with them having had no experience with them and not knowing how to adjust them. They would have been easier but not as precise. I might not have even been able to get close enough in my adjustments of them to work at all. I was also hoping that maybe I wouldn't even need to do anything with jets - that I might lose power and have to just creep up to the top without changing anything but I wasn't so lucky. When the mixture went bad it was just like pulling the choke out all the way - died a choking death and could not be started again until new jets put in. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.) This message was edited by Old Henry on 10-16-11 @ 1:29 PM
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| blarge | -- 10-16-2011 @ 1:27 PM |
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Old Henery: Did the tubes in your 47 that failed the valve stem have the old style big diameter valve stem design or the modern small dia valve stem that is now being sold by Corker and others? Can you think of why you had two valve stems go bad on your trip to Pike's Peak? Bill Large
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| Old Henry | -- 10-16-2011 @ 1:35 PM |
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Why two valve stems broke is a mystery to me. They were both new tubes put into new tires just mounted. I don't know the difference in the size. I'm pretty sure they were the original standard size. What I did learn, however, while watching a couple of high school kids trying to put the tube in the last tire I had repaired, is that very few tire stores will even do anything with a tube and those that do hardly know anything about them. After watching these kids try to figure out how to get the tube into the tire I had to take over and show them. Then I had to emphasize to get the valve stem centered in the hole so that there would be no stress on it. Otherwise, they would have probably messed it up like I'm figuring was done mounting them before that caused them to crack and leak. My 2 cents. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.) This message was edited by Old Henry on 10-16-11 @ 1:39 PM
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| Stroker | -- 10-16-2011 @ 3:23 PM |
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I believe you are "on-to" the valve stem problem being related to improper installation, as very few modern automotive tire shops have experience with tubes. Here in the heartland, most rural tire shop personnel do enough truck and tractor tube-type tires become competent, but the "Walmart Tire-Lube-Express Associates" do not. I like to inflate the tube without the core in place before I seat the outside bead, in order to prevent pinching the tube and to ensure that the valve stem is centered. I then let most of the air back out, and seat the outside bead. You took the "safe route" with fixed jets, as while I'm sure repeatedly "field-stripping" your 94 wasn't fun; at least you didn't fry any valves or hole any pistons. In addition, as Chuck Berry once put it: "Motor cooled down, the heat went down & that's when I heard that highway sound" (Mabelline, ca 1956).
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| Stroker | -- 10-16-2011 @ 3:23 PM |
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Double post deleted. This message was edited by Stroker on 10-16-11 @ 3:53 PM
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| supereal | -- 10-16-2011 @ 7:53 PM |
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Failure of tube stems is almost always due to the shifting of the tube and/or tire on the rim, causing the rim to cut the stem. As said above, many, if not most, tire places seldom see tubes. At our shop, we send the job to a truck place. Even so, tubeless radials are becoming standard truck items, as well. Be sure the rim beads are cleared of rust and crud before you send them out.
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| Old Henry | -- 10-16-2011 @ 8:38 PM |
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I've had two flats recently caused by heavy rust and corrosion on the rim where the tube rubs inside. Had to grind the rims smooth on the inside and paint them to smooth them out to stop that. Old Henry (The older I get, the better old looks.)
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| coftbird | -- 12-12-2011 @ 7:27 PM |
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Glad to see you made it Henry. So that is at least two of us. Charlie
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