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parrish
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-- 10-27-2010 @ 7:56 PM
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I just took delivery of a 39 rear hub bearing (2.84 OD) from MACS and it was made in Denmark. That doesn't bother me as much as the roller bearings are not shiny, but have an almost silvery satin finish to them? Anyone have concerns about this other than me. Shouldn't the surface be smooth and shiny like the originals?
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37 Coupe
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 5:48 AM
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They might be okay but on every on Ford I have rebuilt or restored I have always searched for either NOS Genuine roller bearings or inspected and used good used ones. This is one area I have always wanted to make sure the rollers are compatible,not to soft or not to hard to damage the bearing surface on axle housings and to me the only way this is possible is what Ford engineering came up with over 70 years ago. Mayby they are getting harder to find now but seems I always found more good ones than bad used ones when removing from hubs.
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parrish
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 7:44 AM
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Well, maybe I'm being a little too cautious because the originals aren't severely pitted, but just have some dark discoloration here and there. However, they ARE smooth and shiny and the MACS replacement has a dull satin look to it, so I'm hesitant to use it. I only bought it to be on the safe side and I don't feel so safe about it...
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supereal
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 8:53 AM
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Frankly, after sending back defective points, we don't order from Mac's. I hesitate to condemn any supplier but, that said, I find that not knowing, or seeming to care, about quality just doesn't add up. The very best rear hub bearings are still the Ford "script" type. We have seen some very ugly axle housings, but the bearings were not ruined. Good hardening should result in a uniform coloration and surface texture. A "matte" finish would seem to indicate a rougher than normal quality.
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bo8109b
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 9:32 AM
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Just took delivery on rear hub bearings for my '48 coming from C&G. Cost more than MACS but their shiny like the original Ford's and they state on the packaging that they're hardened.
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37 Coupe
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 9:49 AM
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A few years ago the issue on the non original Ford script rear hub bearings was the failure of the caged ends and these were USA made. Although I am not a Dick Flynn fan he has written about this many times in last 10-15 years of V8 Times,or editor reprints his stories. At the time I figured he was just sticking up for Amsoil bearing grease but I think he was right in suggesting Ford bearings even used ones.
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kubes40
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 10:59 AM
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There is no substitute for Ford (OEM) bearings in this application. The reproduction bearings did in fact have soft cages which after only minimum use would fail and cause all sorts of havoc. I've seen that personally. NOT something you want to happen!
I suggest strongly you send the repops back and find a good set of Ford bearings. NOS are difficult to locate. However very good - used bearings can be found.
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supereal
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 1:45 PM
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Dick Flynn also touted synthetic grease for the rear hubs, which was dead wrong. The only grease that will protect the bearings and housings is the sticky, yellow fibrous type called "drum brake grease". The fibers allow the grease to be pulled through the Hyatt roller bearings. We found that the synthetic grease caused a rapid disintegration of the housing surfaces because it is intended for close tolerance applications, and will turn gray from metal particles in a short time. Over the years, I've disputed some of Flynn's advice. His latest article in the Sept/Oct issue of the V8 TIMES regarding water pumps says the "advertised water pumps" are not needed, as "we have too much water movement with the stock pumps". That sounds too much like the old myth about the coolant being circulated "too fast to be cooled". That supposition died a long time ago.
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kubes40
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 2:47 PM
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Super, I don't always agree with you but DO always read your advice with close attention. I have learned some things form you and for that, THANKS!
In your previous response I agree 100% that 'brake grease' is the only grease for those rear bearings. I wonder how many guys have ever heard of 'brake grease'?
The water pump thing... well, I will agree in part. At least to admit that there is more than one way to get the desired results in any given situation. However, having had taken a number of courses in physics as well as thermal dynamics (rating very high in the classes)I can tell you that moving more water is counter-productive in the scenario we old Flathead guys are applying the rules to.
The bottom line is with a CORRECTLY setup vehicle, IE clean block, radiator, proper operating (zero pressure) radiator cap, proper operating thermostats, water pumps, correctly timed ignition and properly tuned carburetor, the old Flathead will cool just fine with stock pumps.
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37RAGTOPMAN
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 4:06 PM
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if the bearing are made in DENMARK , I am sure they are ok, but like everybody says, you cannot go wrong with FORD BEARING, even good FORD used ones are better then some of the NEW CHINA.
What about the water pumps.,made in CHINA,
I wonder down the road some of them might break,and that is not good,
I have 2 SKIPS pumps. installed last spring and no problems.
as for the AMSOIL BEARING GREASE it is a NO NO,
I repacked bearing on VW RABBITS, and had problems
[ this was back in the 1990's] with the bearing, thought , I was doing something wrong but have done hundreds of them with other grease with no problems,
my 3 cents worth 37RAGTOPMAN an KEEP on FORDIN,,,!!!
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oldford2
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 4:40 PM
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Kubes40,
The grease is available at NAPA#sl3131 Sta-Lube heavy duty drum brake grease. Now that we got off subject to cooling: I guess that your statement that "a properly tuned carb, ignition, and clean block and radiator,cap, pumps will cool the Ford just fine". Let me tell you "there ain't many Fords out there in this condition". So, we take out the thermostats, use water wetter, use Skip's pumps and it helps. Works in hot weather. Now, since you were at the top of your class in physics, etc. maybe you can explain in backyard mechanics terms exactly why slowing water flow will result in a cooler engine. Thanks
John
This message was edited by oldford2 on 10-28-10 @ 4:46 PM
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ford38v8
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-- 10-28-2010 @ 10:36 PM
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Oh, boy, here we go! Mike, your statement of a "correctly set up vehicle" is of course not to be argued with, but it certainly does not lend credence to an argument of "water too fast".
Not being a mathematician, I won't tax your comprehension with formulas or graphs, but rather, I'll use logic: Water will pick up a given amount of heat per time element it is in contact with the block, and transfer that heat to the radiator at the same or better rate, as brass has the ability to absorb heat faster than cast iron can transfer heat to the water. At this point, there is no argument, fast or slow, as both may very well be equal as far as I know.
The limiting factor for either scenario, however, is that dirty word Cavitation. Too fast will produce cavitation due to bottlenecks in the system, and too slow will produce cavitation due to hot spots producing steam.
The stock cooling system has from day one in 1932 with the first Ford V8 had far too many seriously hot spots to tame with the speed of the water that passed over them. The steam bubbles at those points prevent the water contact required to absorb the heat.
There is no evidence that I know of of cavitation from too fast a water flow in the Ford flathead engine. Do you have any such evidence?
Alan
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51f1
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-- 10-29-2010 @ 4:14 AM
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Bearings are one of the most standardized products in the world. They have been for years. The numbers on a bearing made in the U.S. are the same numbers found on a bearing from almost anywhere. If you are concerned about quality, take your bearing to a local industrial bearing supplier. They can match most any bearing in many different brands.
Richard
This message was edited by 51f1 on 10-29-10 @ 5:11 AM
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51f1
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-- 10-29-2010 @ 5:07 AM
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Higher coolant flow will always result in higher heat transfer. Coolant cannot absorb heat after it reaches it's vapor point. Furthermore, coolant absorbs heat at a progressively slower rate as it approaches this point.
What that says is the faster the coolant flows, the more heat is removed (up to some practical limit, of course). Further, when the water flows too slowly, the hot spots in the cooling system cause the coolant to vaporize. Vapor is not a very good coolant. As a rule of thumb, a good flow rate for a new, clean engine is about 0.2 gpm/bhp at max rpm. As crud builds up in a cooling system, it acts as an insulator, so a higher flow rate is required, hence, Skip's pumps. Thermostats do reduce the flow, but they also allow the engine to heat up faster, which is a good thing.
Why don't y'all just clean out your cooling systems and maintain them? It's kind of like the changing from 6 volts to 12 volts. Why not just fix the 6-volt system? Remember, our cars and trucks worked when they came from the factory.
Richard
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kubes40
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-- 10-29-2010 @ 6:47 AM
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SUMMARY REPLIES TO THE LATEST RESPONSES:
* I know where to get brake grease. My comment in regard to a lot of guys NOT knowing what it is was to reflect the idea that brake grease is 'old school'. You know, from my days 
* Although bearings are one of the most easily acquired items, the caged roller bearings for the rear drums is not one of them. They are in fact, as one member states, available at the local bearing supply house. However, you will no doubt get a BCA brand (Mexico). The quality of those is poor. I tested the hardness of the cage years ago and they were dead soft. The assembly would have failed QUICKLY in application.
* I was never at the top of my physics classes. Darn close, but not at the top. A 'young' fellow with very long hair and earings was in fact at the top. He made me understand that guys can be okay with long hair and earings.
* I agree that most engines are not set up properly. That leads me to another members response. That is: Why not fix the problem (he referred to 12v vs. 6v) instead of simply 'masking' the problem (my words).
* We all know there are numerous methods to get our engines to cool. I eluded to that right away. Still, the necessity to remove thermostats, add faster pumps, etc. is ONLY one of them. One that is a 'mask'. See above comment. To reiterate: There are NUMEROUS methods to get the cooling we desire in our vehicles. Yes, I agree! Really I do! However, to suggest that faster pumps, etc,. is THE way is patently false.
I have never had cooling problems and do not use 'fast' pumps, pressurized systems and oh yes, I DO install thermostats. Possibly, just maybe it is because I choose to set my engines up correctly. Yes that takes additional time and yes, may cost a few more dollars. Like 'brake grease' I'm from the old school. The place where I was taught to do it once - do it correctly.
* In many situations moving coolant quicker will indeed allow it to dissipate heat quicker. That's in a 'perfect world' where all mitigating factors are constant and in tune with one another. (I think it was 51F1 and Alan that seem to have a pretty decent grasp on thermal mass retention / transfer)...In reality moving the coolant TOO quickly through the radiator will not allow enough exposure time to the cooling fins for the heat to dissipate (to take full advantage of the radiators 'job'). There's a definite design engineered into each and every radiator application. Total surface area of the cooling fins is critical as is capacity (amongst others).
EX: Back when I raced (big block Chevies) there were no 'fast pumps'. What there was were larger capacity radiators. That's all it took to keep the 500+ cubic inches cool - a larger radiator. I still ran thermostats and didn't change anything else.
This message was edited by kubes40 on 10-29-10 @ 6:53 AM
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supereal
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-- 10-29-2010 @ 9:48 AM
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There are a number of factors bearing on the ability of the cooling system to function properly. Some are variable, others are not. Among the fixed are the flow capacity of the radiator (how much fluid can actually move thru the core at peak) and the surface area of the tubes and fins. These bear on the ability of the radiator to transfer heat from the coolant to the air, and establish a maximum rate of heat transfer. Variables include the ability of the coolant mixture to absorb heat as it passes thru the system. Generally, plain water is a better medium than an antifreeze solution due to higher density. Air flow is also variable, whether from the engine fan or the movement of the vehicle, as is ambient temperature. The other variable is the pumping rate of the engine driven water pumps, directly linked to the rpms of the engine. If the rate of pumping drops, as in the case of idling or slow moving traffic, the coolant stays longer in the water jacket and arrives at the radiator considerably hotter than at highway speed, causing a higher load on the radiator, and a hotter returned coolant to the engine. In effect, a "zero sum" situation. Hotter coolant does not increase radiator efficiency. I agree that the stock pumps, at speed, are adequate. The advanced style increases pumping rate at low speeds, where most overheating occurs. If all other parts of the system are in good operating condition, only the pumping rate can be addressed by a design change. As engines age, the water jacket becomes coated with materials that form an insulator, reducing efficiency. It is unrealistic to expect engines that are decades old to be as efficient as newer ones. To compensate, you must address the variable parts of the system outlined above. To maintain the originality of the vehicle, a bigger radiator or fan is usually off the table, as is abandoning the belt driven pumps, leaving flow rate as the bottom line. I hold no financial interest in the new pumps. In fact, my '47 has the original style, but it also has a new radiator and the block was boiled clean when it was rebuilt. We I bought it, you couldn't go around the block without pegging the gauge. Street rods, old style cars with huge engines, often incorporate electric water pumps and non engine driven fans to produce adequate cooling. For the rest of us, these are impractical and we can only change the parts that address the factors that preserve appearance, while compensating for age and design problems. The number one complaint we hear from owners of old Fords is overheating. Some blame the design, but it should be kept in mind that millions of these cars and trucks were made and ran well, as long as they were properly maintained. These improvements in water pump design give an added meaning to the phrase "go with the flow".
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ford38v8
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-- 10-29-2010 @ 1:47 PM
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Super brings up an excellent point that I hadn't thought of. The pumps vary their speed according to engine speed, and at idle, they move the coolant slowly. So while driving, most V8's are fine, but pull up to a stop sign and you get both less flow and less air movement through the radiator. Double trouble. This is one big advantage of the faster pumps.
Mike, with regard to setting up an engine correctly, a large number of us are running engines that could really use a proper cleaning out of the water passages. As this cannot be done until it is dismantled, we run with accumulated deposits and sometimes even original casting sand because backflushing only accomplishes a limited cleaning.
Alan
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51f1
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-- 10-29-2010 @ 3:30 PM
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kubes40:
Bearing suppliers will sell you any brand of bearing that you want. Buy a reputable brand, and don't worry about where it was made.
Richard
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kubes40
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-- 10-29-2010 @ 5:28 PM
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Richard, I agree, you can get just about any brand you want. The problem remains that many of the after-market bearings are of poor quailty. I don't really care where the item was made. i do care if it's of poor quality. In the case of these bearings, I have no stake in the matter directly as I have perhaps a dozen NOS (Ford- OEM) bearings.
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supereal
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-- 10-30-2010 @ 10:19 AM
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Be aware that all rear hub roller bearings are not the same. The original '36 bearings were 3.12" OD, and a switch was made that year to 2.78" OD during that year, and continued in thru '48, so a correct measurement must be made before ordering. Same was true for pickups. Quality of the roller hardening has a profound effect on the axle housings. A great deal of the problem with repro bearings stemmed from the cages, particularly the side plates. Any minor deviation from the spec of the originals can cause expensive damage. Being "close" doesn't count! And, yes, I was referring to the Sta-Lube Heavy Duty Drum Brake Grease" in my earlier post. There are a couple of other makers, but we prefer Sta-Lube, usually available at NAPA. Here is another tip: We have found that the wheel bearing grease seals that are not coated with the red sealer tend to be poor quality, and often collapse before they can be driven into place. When you buy seals for rear or front, ask the vendor if they are red or plain metal. If plain, try elsewhere, or buy plenty so you have enough to get at least what you need out of the batch.
This message was edited by supereal on 10-30-10 @ 11:01 AM
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51f1
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-- 10-31-2010 @ 2:14 AM
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An industrial bearing supplier such as Bearings and Drives does not sell inferior bearings. They cater to industry. They wouldn't stay in business very long selling an inferior product.
And that's all I have to say on the matter.
Richard
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parrish
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-- 10-31-2010 @ 10:40 AM
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Thanks for the comments. As a summary, I've tried to take a photo showing the respective finishes of the bearings: LEFT is original script, MIDDLE is MACS, RIGHT is non-script with black cage and supports from a 46 donor. The tape measure is simply used for reflection purposes...I'm very uneasy with the MACS.
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