Topic: Oil capacity

MG	-- 09-24-2010 @ 3:33 PM
	GM, Was it you who said that 4 qt's of oil is the correct/maximum capacity of oil the flathead V8 requires - those equipped without an oil fliter even though the owners manual says 5 qt's? In my case, I'm refering to my 1934 Ford e/w original engine.
supereal	-- 09-25-2010 @ 10:22 AM
	Four quarts without the filter, five quarts with it. The books continued to print the wrong info for years. That is one reason so many report severe oil leakage at the back main. It is always a good idea to check the dipstick after an oil change with the correct fill, and mark the level if your dipstick shows over or under filling. Many engines have either the wrong stick, or tube from junkyard replacements over the years.
37 Coupe	-- 09-25-2010 @ 11:46 AM
	I still cannot believe nor will I evr that Ford was printing in owners manual the wrong capacity for oil years before filters were used or available for instane my owners manual for my 37 Ford 5 quarts capacity,and no filter was used. I have also seen old receipts from Ford dealers and have continued to see them every now and the on Ebay for instance of service work at Ford garage,you usually see say in 1935-1936-1937 and so on " Engine oil drained and refilled 5 quarts" At least that is what they were charging you for. In my opinion Ford engineers knew exactly how much oil to recommend and would have been aware of reference manuals being wrong. I myself think the correct amount is 4 quarts plus a partial 5th for non filtered and who cared back then if it was over and came out,customer already paid for it. In other words it was rounded off to the highest figure 5.
supereal	-- 09-25-2010 @ 2:28 PM
	You don't have to believe it, but it is true. The fifth quart is to accommodate the capacity of the canister holding the filter element. Most books, including some owner's manuals, include the notation in the oil capacity section specifying 5 quarts, that it includes "filter absorption". Oil filters didn't come into general use until the 40's, then five quarts was correct. And owners of older cars and trucks without filters just assumed they needed five quarts, as well. Unfortunately, the early "slinger"type rear mains couldn't hold it all, and many just assumed that the accepted "fact" that all Fords leaked oil like a sieve was true.
George	-- 09-25-2010 @ 3:22 PM
	I have an original Ford Manual V 8-112 for my 1934 Ford Pickup. On page 15, under Group 1, Engine Lubrication, paragraph two, it clearly states, and I quote, "It is advisable to clean out the oil pan by draining off the old oil when the new car has been driven 300 miles, and again when a total milage of 1000 miles has been reached and at each 1000 miles thereafter. The oil will drain out more completely if warm, and should be replaced with 5 quarts of engine oil of the proper viscosity and quality." If Ford was not THE authority on their products - then who is? Really!! George Maher, a 1934 Ford owner George
supereal	-- 09-26-2010 @ 10:59 AM
	George: I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes, but four quarts is sufficient without a filter. The oil pan capacity wasn't changed when the filters became available, so the quantity of oil was increased at that time to 5 quarts compensate for the extra need. I can't explain why some of the Ford literature doesn't agree. Knowing how Ford operated, it is logical that the subject was covered in a "service bulletin" at some time, but not incorporated into owner's manuals. At one point, a bulletin was issued saying to re-mark the dipstick 5/16 lower than the "full" mark when replacing the "new" stick in an older engine. As mentioned above, some literature mentions the filter, which became a production item in '41, as requiring 5 quarts instead of 4 due to "absorption". It may have been deemed safer to recommend 5 quarts for all at that time to avoid oil starvation by those who had been accustomed to the one gallon fill. Overfilling the oil pan usually doesn't cause a problem beyond increased leakage, unless it reaches the point where the crankshaft is involved. That results in aeration of the oil that can reduce lubrication of vital parts of the engine. In the pre-'41 days, most motor oil was sold in refillable glass jars with long snouts. Many of us "gas station rats" had the job of cranking the bulk pumps to refill them. After 5 quarts became the norm, we began to see the now familiar prepackaged 5 quart jugs.
kubes40	-- 09-26-2010 @ 7:09 PM
	Super, You know I have a deep respect for your base of knowledge. I have stated thus both publicly and privately. You have taught me a number of things. However, this is one time I can't agree with you. I have studied the drawings of oil pans at the Benson Ford Research Center. All the 85 pans were designed for a 5 quart capacity. This specification began before any oil filters were offered. The exception being the very early 60HP pans were designed for 4 quarts but soon were redesigned for a 5 quart capacity. The above documented research coupled with the fact (fore-mentioned) of the owners manuals for so many years stating 5 quarts CRANKCASE capacity, as well as all the service manuals, letters, etc. reiterating that same statistic ... I simply find it ridiculous to believe Ford Motor CO. made that mistake for so many years in so many publications. Respectfully, Mike
40guy	-- 09-27-2010 @ 7:39 AM
	It's been 5 for me the last 30 years; filter or no. I will continue to do so. I guess with all the varying opinions and data, just run which ever you feel best about. My philosophy has always been better too much lubrication than not enough when it comes to machinery.
supereal	-- 09-27-2010 @ 10:44 AM
	Thanks, Mike. It is a difference of opinion that makes the world go round. If the capacity of the oil pan was always 5 quarts, it does seem inconsistent that so many manuals didn't call for 6 quarts when the filter was added to accommodate the amount retained in the canister. Most, if not all, printed materials were not actual Ford issues, as Ford didn't publish a comprehensive shop manual. Most are by Polyprints, and some do contain inaccuracies in some areas. That said, if anyone wants to use 5 quarts, that's fine with me. I'd didn't say the oil pan capacity was changed, but according to my records, the "full" mark on the dipstick was amended as mentioned in my earlier post to reflect the difference between the early and later oil fill amount. This message was edited by supereal on 9-27-10 @ 11:42 AM
TomO	-- 09-27-2010 @ 11:05 AM
	There was a change to 4 quarts with out a filter in the Strato Star engines, when the filter became standard equipment. Before that all of the oil pans that I have seen were 5 quart capacity. Tom
kubes40	-- 09-27-2010 @ 11:47 AM
	Hi Super, Yep, different opinions do make the world spin. I certainly respect yours. I was not referring to Polyprints but rather actual Ford publications. Also, as a side note, I don't believe the oil filters from 1940 - 48 actually held a full quart of oil at any time. Might that be why Ford didn't specify an additional quart to be used with a filter? just a thought...
supereal	-- 09-27-2010 @ 12:06 PM
	Mike: I've never measured exactly what the canister holds, but I know that draining the canister when changing the element appears to be about a quart, if the element is left to fully drain. It is good sized, and I will check the amount on the next change on my '47. I installed a radiator drain cock in the canister in place of the plug to make draining easier. Anyone changing oil in an engine older than '41 should check the dipstick after adding 4 quarts to see if it is at the full mark. The service bulletin calling for the 5/16" re-mark probably comes close to the amount the filter takes up.
ford38v8	-- 09-27-2010 @ 6:09 PM
	I've always prefilled my canister before replacing the cover, and although i never measured it, it seems to me that the canister with filter holds about 2/3 quart. I'm not taking sides on this issue, but I've heard of the 4-5 quart thing for longer than there even was an internet. 5 full quarts in my 59L is slightly above the dipstick mark and doesn't drip at the cotter key. I know that engine oil is a coolant, and an engine that is slightly shy of oil capacity will build to a higher temperature, certainly not what we want in a flatmotor! Polyprints, to my knowledge, never wrote or edited anything, but simply duplicated, usually in a smaller size than original pamphlets and such. Alan
Wolfie	-- 09-27-2010 @ 7:45 PM
	I've always put 5 quarts in my 40, and of course it drips oil for a short while when you shut the motor off. This discussion makes me think that with four quarts it might not drip oil. Has anyone checked the difference with four and five to see if the drips change?
40guy	-- 09-27-2010 @ 8:08 PM
	Like I always say; if your old Ford don't leak a little you better fix it.
supereal	-- 09-28-2010 @ 10:25 AM
	OK, guys. Since this topic has generated more than average interest, I took the time to measure both the filter canister and a quart container of oil. The canister shows a capacity of just about 75 cubic inches, including the lid. The quart oil container measures about 70 cubic inches. The filter element is 4 inches in diameter, and 5 inches high. It consists of a perforated tin can with a pleated paper insert which is immersed in the oil, and fills completely in use. This oil is in addition to the usual oil pan contents, and requires the extra quart to maintain the proper level.
40 Coupe	-- 09-28-2010 @ 11:11 AM
	whats wrong with the dip stick. fill it to the full mark and check it often.
johnpoly	-- 09-28-2010 @ 12:01 PM
	My '36 manual says 5 quarts. Using the dipstick to see when the sump was full always met the full line with 4 quarts. I assumed that the pan was full of sludge or dented enough to reduce the 5 quart requirement to 4 quarts. From all of you I have learned that 4 quarts is okay. I also add a couple of ounces of EOS to be safe.
supereal	-- 09-28-2010 @ 1:45 PM
	Another note: Occasionally we recommend Sh*ll Rotella oil, 15-40, as it is high detergent and has a better ZDDP amount. If you do use it, be aware that the jugs are one gallon, as opposed to the usual 5 quarts in the regular oil jugs.
Stroker	-- 09-28-2010 @ 3:58 PM
	Having spent most of the first half of my life dealing with "working" flatheads, and enjoying my retirement years with hobby flatheads, I can never recall servicing any of our stable of flatmotors with less than 5 quarts. As a caveat however, they all had Fram type filter cannisters which, as Super has correctly stated held one quart of oil. If I were to make my 38 woodie "correct", and removed the head bolted cannister (I don't know of anyone who reproduces the correct sealed filter for a 38), I'd drop her back to 4 quarts, regardless of what my owner's manual states. We had a 40 Ford Ton-and-a-half that came equipped (from the dealer) with the large F-2 2-quart filter housing bolted to the firewall. On this truck, we always re-filled with 7 quarts. A "barefoot" (non-filtered) flattie will do quite well with 4 quarts. Add a cannister filter, and you need to also add a quart. As for oils, I agree that "Royal Dutch" Rotella (see, I outfoxed the built-in anti-netherworld blocker), is great oil. Personally, I prefer straight Valvoline Racing 30 weight, as I don't start my engine in sub-zero temps, and I allow it to warm up before setting out on the superslab.
supereal	-- 09-29-2010 @ 9:48 AM
	It is interesting that the oil requirement of newer vehicles is climbing. My truck, a Ford with the 5.4 engine, now calls for seven quarts, including filter. At this rate, we may soon have to buy it by the barrel!
lightflyer1	-- 09-29-2010 @ 1:44 PM
	My 2006 VW tdi (diesel) only takes a little over 4 quarts. Rotella is often used after warranty expires.
40guy	-- 09-29-2010 @ 2:14 PM
	Super: I agree with you about rising oil capacities in new vehicles. It's all about sales; money. My wife has a 2007 Ford Edge that requires 5.5 quarts. This causes me to have to buy an extra quart every other oil change. That does not sound like much, but when we put it on a world-wide scale, thats a lot of extra sales. I'm convinced the oil manufacturers have colluded with the auto industry on this "deal" $$$$, but thats just my opinion.
37 Coupe	-- 09-29-2010 @ 3:19 PM
	Mayby the owners manual is wrong on your Edge oil capacity and they have kept printing it wrong for 2007-2008-2009-2010 and now 2011,mayby it only requires 4 quarts,or keep it long enough and someday someone on a forum will pronounce that the owners manual and Ford engineering was wrong and you do not have to pay for 5.5 quarts but the now correct 4.
40guy	-- 09-29-2010 @ 3:53 PM
	As Larry the Cable Guy says: "I don't care who you are thats funny right there now".
Stroker	-- 09-29-2010 @ 4:00 PM
	I don't believe in "conspiracy theory's, and I don't believe that increased oil capacity is a conspiracy. Lubricating oil has a number of critical jobs to do: First and foremost, it has to lubricate moving parts; Second, it has a significant role in cooling, especially the heat generated within bearings; Third, it is a "cleaning solution", encapsulating byproducts of combustion and wear-generated contaminants and hopefully depositing them in a filter media so they do not continue to circulate. In history, engines that were expected to work hard, and survive had larger oil capacities than those that were lightly loaded. Case in point: Our 1950 GMC 228 cubic-inch truck took 12 quarts of oil. This was not a big engine, and it was installed in a 100-series pickup. My biggest bitch has always been with the industry's former trend towards less capacity. I'm happy that they have finally realized that volume is important. I have a little 183 cu.in Ford Ranger (rhymes with "danger"), that takes 5 quarts. I'm OK with that, as when it comes to oil, to me more is better. My 226 cubic-inch Jeep takes 5 quarts, but I'd be happier if it took 6. These engines have an estimated life of 200+/- miles in average service, the Ford has roller tappets, and the Jeep overhead cams. I use Mobil One in both these vehicles, not because I want an extended drain interval, but because I believe it provides critical lubrication during start-up. I use Valvoline Racing 30 in my flathead, because I believe it provides a good film cushion, given the flathead's generous bearing clearances, and has enough anti-wear additives to protect my hard to replace bearings, tappets, cam etc. My drain intervals on the modern stuff is 3000 miles; drain interval on the flathead is 2000. If I could easily increase my flatmotor's crankcase capacity to 7 quarts, I'd do it. In the fifties, we had a McCulloch supercharged OHV that was dad's daily driver. Dad believed that 85 mph was "cruising", and 100 was probably "speeding". This motor (a 356 cubic inch Cadillac) called for 7 quarts of oil including the AC cannister-type filter. I pulled the pan, and installed a sending unit for an oil temperature gage in the sump. This was absolutely a revelation for me, as I had never realized the relationship between engine load and oil temperature. It was almost as if the needle on the oil temp gage was somehow "connected" to the throttle linkage; push down, temp rises, let off, temp drops in Seconds! This experience has led me to believe that "more is better" when it comes to the amount of oil that is available for the aforementioned duties assigned to oil. Yes oil-coolers do work, and I've used them on motorcycles to good effect. More oil capacity is a whole lot simpler though.
supereal	-- 09-30-2010 @ 7:16 AM
	At our shop, we maintain a fleet of large trucks, and oil changes require gallons of oil. Now that Freightliner and others have switched to a Mercedes engine, the filter alone is almost $100. Many operators now use a service that analyzes oil to determine the optimum time to drain, instead of the odometer. As car makers switch to longer drain intervals, that procedure will probably become more popular. With the price of motor oil soaring, you can bet on it.
Johns46coupe	-- 09-30-2010 @ 1:41 PM
	Just a curiosity question: does more oil capacity mean better lubrication as well as better cooling? If the oil level is sufficient to ensure a supply is always available to the oil pump, I would think more than that is wasted as far as lubrication goes but beneficial for cooling as it is circulated slightly less often and therefore may have a longer life between changes. John
ford38v8	-- 09-30-2010 @ 2:55 PM
	John, you've answered your own question... kinda. Yes, more oil capacity does mean better lubrication as well as better cooling. Each time you are stopped at a traffic light on a hot day, your cooling system is inadequate to cool your engine, and a small amount of your oil suffers damage to its lubricating properties as it overheats. (This damage doesn't apply to 100% synthetic oil, but damage does occur to all petroleum based and blended oil). The percentage of dirty oil and damaged oil being relative to the total capacity of your system, more oil is better on all points. Alan
supereal	-- 09-30-2010 @ 2:55 PM
	It is true that the crankcase oil does aid in engine cooling, particularly the pistons. Some engines are designed to have jets of oil sprayed on the underside of the pistons. As long as there is sufficient pressure, excess oil doesn't produce a lubrication benefit. The hazard of overfilling is the possibility of aeration of the oil if it comes in contact with the crankshaft. That produces a kind of "vapor lock" that starves bearings. It is a good bet that engines of the future will be the "dry sump" kind with an integral cooler similar to race cars. As turbochargers become standard on more engines, oil coolers will be added to prevent the "coking" of the oil in the impeller bearings which often run nearly red hot. Non-turbo engines without cooling system problems usually don't get hot enough to cause the failure of the oil itself, if a good brand.
40fordor	-- 10-04-2010 @ 1:16 PM
	I have enjoyed this post. Both my 36 and 40 show exactly on the full mark with 4 quarts neither has an oil filter. The only question I have is how many of us check our oil level after operating the car for several miles and add a quart when the dip stick shows full? I would bet none of us. That said I don't know which amount is correct. Don
supereal	-- 10-04-2010 @ 1:32 PM
	If the dipstick is the right one, and it shows "full" after 4 quarts, that is the amount. It does take a bit of time for all the oil to return to the oil pan after running. The best time to check the oil is when the engine is cold. All the oil has drained back into the pan, and any expansion due to heat has gone away. Some engines leak or otherwise use oil, so frequent checking isn't a bad idea, in that case.
dakota	-- 10-13-2010 @ 4:54 AM
	While scanning a 1940 shop manual I noticed that the oil capacity (page 319) is listed as 4 qts. See attachment. As for over filling your crankcase. I doubt that it helps much in the cooling of the engine. I am sure that if there is foaming of oil because of over filling this can have a detrimental effect on engine life.
40fordor	-- 10-13-2010 @ 7:09 AM
	Dakota, Your post actually adds fuel to this discussion since the posted page shows Imperial quarts which are 20% larger by volume than US quarts. That would equal 4.8 US quarts.
Kens 36	-- 10-13-2010 @ 7:11 AM
	Dakota, You should note that your shop manual is referring to IMPERIAL quarts, which are equivalent to 38.43 US ounces. 4 imperial quarts are about 6 ounces short of 5 US quarts. Ken
ford38v8	-- 10-13-2010 @ 8:36 AM
	Close, but the math is backwards. UK Qt = 1.20 US Qt. Alan
Kens 36	-- 10-13-2010 @ 11:12 AM
	Alan, Have a cup of coffee, then get out your calculator again. All of us said the same thing. Ken
ford38v8	-- 10-13-2010 @ 12:58 PM
	Ken, you're right. My math was for one qt only! You know, this kinda puts a new light on the whole issue of "misprint" 4 or 5 qts, doesn't it? Alan
dakota	-- 10-13-2010 @ 3:49 PM
	Oops.... You guys are correct. I did see Imperial, but it did not register. All I know is... I am going to start ordering my Martini's in Imperial oz.
Norm	-- 10-26-2010 @ 1:16 PM
	As far as I can tell, there's no answer that will make anyone happy!! When I was a teenager I worked at a Ford garage part time - doing oil changes among other things. I changed oil in a lot of flathead engines. Hard and fast rule - 4qts without changing the filter, 5 with. At that time oil came in gallon (4 qt) cans and in one qt cans. One gallon can was fine for an oil change that did not include a filter change. We later used the gallon cans for parts washing (with raw gasoline!) and other shop tasks. No one ever challenged that approach - at least not that I heard! I also don't remember any issues about dipstick readings. Norm
supereal	-- 10-26-2010 @ 1:38 PM
	The reason the dipstick was mentioned is that there was a Ford service bulletin long ago that suggested that after the correct amount of oil was installed that owners check to see the indication. It came out about the same time the Fram filter was offered as an aftermarket accessory, which required an extra quart of oil to accommodate the addition. There was an issue about the correct dipstick, and whether the tube on the oil pan was correct, perhaps discovered at the factory. In those days, no one knew what a "recall" was. The first one I remember was in 1954 when we mechanics were issued a small metal gauge to check the rivets on the front axle "A" frames. We were instructed to use it on each car as it came in, and report any variations. I never found one, but still have the gauge.
tbirdhandyman	-- 11-03-2010 @ 6:57 PM
	This topic is of interest to me because for years when I changed oil, 5 qts would come up to the letter "L" in the full marking on my dipstick. My research follows: This was not done to disprove anyone, but rather to find out the correct fill of my engine oil pan. 1.Parts involved: #48-6675-C oil pan (39/46 Mercury) #48-6750 Indicator, oil level (39/48 Mercury) 16&3/4" over length. 13&3/4" bottom to seal washer. #48-6754-B, tube (screws into boss on pan) 8&21/64" long (39/48 Mercury) 2. Tests: Pan removed from '41 Mercury 95 HP engine. On my workbench I put one quart of oil into pan & it touches the very bottom of the dip stick. I put two quarts of oil into the pan & it touches the top line of the Danger Zone. I put three quarts of oil into the pan & it goes to the middle of "Safe Driving Range". I put four quarts of oil into the pan and it goes to the "Full" mark. Five quarts put the oil up to the bottom "L" on the full stamp. 3. Observations: On page 35 of the '41 Mercury Reference book #7064-41 (copyright 1940) it says "avoid overfilling. When the oil pan is full, the dipstick will show "full". Any excess oil which raises the oil level above this point will be quickly consumed and give the effect of excessive oil consumption. Keep the oil level between the FULL & DANGER marks on the gauge. 4. Conclusion: 5 quarts in my engine puts the oil 3/4" above the full mark, but after 1,000 miles, it only has dropped 1/4" on the dipstick. My bench test backs up Supereal's statement. I will use 4 quarts on my next oil change, and hopefully my oil leaks will go away. Sorry for the long post. Robert E. Tbirdhandyman
Stroker	-- 11-04-2010 @ 7:14 AM
	Interesting test! The only possible criticism is that you didn't include that portion of the the oil pump pickup assembly which would be submerged which would displace a very small amount of oil, raising the level even more, and further reinforcing your conclusion. We have to remember though, that not all the oil drains back into the pan, after shutdown. There will still (hopefully) be oil contained in the galleries, the crank passages, oil pump, the lifter valley and piston oil ring land. I hope we have put to rest the idea that "overfilling is good" in this excellent thread.
Stroker	-- 11-06-2010 @ 5:16 PM
	For those of you that are afraid of walking the tightrope between 4 and 5 quarts, I just discovered that fellow Bonneville racer (and son of the Baron-Tattersfield flathead speed equipment family), Tony Baron has come out with a 12 quart 59-A oil pan.
MG	-- 05-18-2011 @ 5:47 PM
	I changed the oil in both my '34 and '37 sedans today. I put 4 quarts in each of them. Both of these cars have their original engines in them. I checked the dipstick on both after the change without running the engine. Both dipsticks showed the fresh oil to the 'full' mark. For me, this backs up 'supereal's 4 quart capacity answer to my original question/post. I will no longer put 5 quarts of oil in my un-filtered cars. It makes sence that the extra quart is the cause of the oil leakage from my cars.
supereal	-- 05-18-2011 @ 9:06 PM
	When all else fails, look at the dipstick. Besides leaks, overfilling can result in aeration of the oil which, in turn, causes oil starvation.
40fordor	-- 05-24-2011 @ 8:35 PM
	I worked in my father's Standard Oil station during the late 1940s and 1950s and never once did I have a customer tell me to add a quart of oil when the dip stick showed full when they stopped for gas. In those days I was taught to show the level of oil to the customer and they determined if oil was needed. Two factory trained Ford mechanics were in our customer base at that time. This is very interesting because my memory is that we refilled oil changes with 5 quarts with a filter. Some customers would skip a filter change every other time and we installed 4 fresh quarts. Don
ford38v8	-- 05-24-2011 @ 10:14 PM
	Don, in those days, Standard Oil had training stations, where half a dozen uniformed trainees would check everything on every car that came in. If you were one of those trainees, I'm sure you weren't taught the sleazy tricks used at many stations: Wipe the dipstick and re-insert it almost but not quite all the way, to show a low reading. With the engine having been just turned off, of course the oil hadn't fully drained back to the pan, and uh-oh, you're a qt. low, sir. Alan

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