| Motor2Wheel | -- 09-12-2010 @ 9:04 AM |
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Original 6v set up on my flathead. It hasn't run in 17 yrs or more. Fuel tank drained and lines purged completely, oil drained in crankcase and transmission, replaced. New battery installed, motor cranked without plugs installed to verify spark first and get the oil pumping. Cranks fine, no spark on any of the plugs. Voltage checked with switch on and verifed it down to the connection on coil. Coil was removed and it has quite a bit of insulating resin, (PCB?), material evident on exterior. Apparently it has leaked out. I did not touch the points settings yet. I believe they are breaking, but unable to really verify due to the tight location. I am thinking about ways to bench test the coil/condensor. Here is what I'm thinking: Fixture the condensore mounting ring on a common piece of aluminum stock that would extend close to the carbon brush contact. I would then fix a wire onto the contact spring and apply power to the connector. The fixture would be grounded to the positive battery post. Then, I would take the wire from the spring contact and "ground" it for a couple of seconds and remove to see if the carbon generates a spark to the fixture. Has anyone tried something similar, or is there an easier way? Or, does anyone think I should be looking elsewhere for the source of the problem? Thanks for the help. Check's in the mail for membership!
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| supereal | -- 09-12-2010 @ 9:52 AM |
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That's a lot of work, when a simpler test will do. Measure the voltage at the input to the coil. You should see about 3.5 volts with the points closed. As you turn the engine so the points open, the voltage should rise to that of the battery. You can verify the action of the points by removing the wire to the distributor from the coil and attaching an ohmmeter between that wire and ground, As you turn the engine, the meter should show zero ohms with the points open, and the needle should swing all the way over when they close. If the needle swings all the way over when the meter is connected, and doesn't swing back as you turn the engine, the condenser is likely shorted. We just set up a distributor that came in with the "make" set of points open, while the "break" set was working. The distributor generated a weak spark, but not enough to run the engine. As a rule, ALL old Ford coils are bad, particularly if you see evidence of leakage. As coils for your car are hard to find, the better choice is to have yours rebuilt, in any case. For information, call 941/637-6698, or e-mail skip@fordsrus.com.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 09-12-2010 @ 11:10 AM |
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Also the points are most likely corroded and need cleaning, CRC ELECTRIC MOTOR CLEANER works real well for this, if you use a mirror and have someone crank the motor over [ with key in the ON position ] you might see the points arcing,if not slip a piece of 320 wet and dry sanding paper, and hone the points a little to help in cleaning them, rinse with more CRC,so are real clean you will have to remove the distributer caps to gain access, to the points, hope this helps,37RAGTOPMAN an KEEP on FORDIN,,!!! if you still HAVE PROBLEMS,, Send the whole unit to SKIP for a rebuild.dist and REBUILT Coil and have him use a NEW condensor, you will be back up and running , in a week or so, and problem solved, GOOD FOR YEARS, This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 9-12-10 @ 11:12 AM
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| Motor2Wheel | -- 09-12-2010 @ 6:45 PM |
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Well, I built the fixture anywya and it worked great! The coil has plenty of spark! I took the distributor off and checked the points out and they look almost new. The backing plat appears to be in great shape and the points are clean. I gapped them to 0.028" and figure that ought be good. Am I off on this? I have not mounted the coil back on, but have assembled the distributer back onto the camshaft. I'll get to the rest of it later. Thanks for the help.
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| supereal | -- 09-13-2010 @ 11:09 AM |
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Ignition point gaps should be between .014 and .016. I doubt that your engine will run at all, let alone good, at .028 We check the gaps after setting the dwell on our machine, and at the correct gaps, you will be close, but likely not perfect.
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| Motor2Wheel | -- 09-13-2010 @ 7:24 PM |
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Thanks! I'll close them up to 0.015 and see what it does. Once I get it running, then I'll check the dwell, but I have to be honest, it's a little tight in there with the belt and fan turning! Do you usually access it from underneath the car and through the two holes in the distributor? It's been a long time since I've worked on this thing, but I remember having to clean the points quite frequently. Another question: I rebuilt the fuel pump and reinstalled it. The diaphragm was pretty hard, so I soaked it in fuel for a while. It loosened up and was making the correct sound when actuated. Do you usually have to prime these to get them to start pumping? Thanks, again.
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| BrianCT | -- 09-14-2010 @ 5:48 AM |
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Personally ,I don't do any distributor work with the motor running. Got nipped once by the fan blades.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 09-14-2010 @ 6:00 AM |
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you can not adjust the dwell on the car with the engine running. remove the distributor and send it out to have it adjusted on a distributor machine such as a Heyer or Sun once you get it to run. Sounds as if the fuel pump will also need rebuilding once the engine runs if it makes it that far. todays gas will leak through the old diaphragms. I suggest you bypass the fuel pump and run an aux fuel tank off to the side with gravity feed to the carb. One less think to worry about when starting and no need to prime. You should have fuel before starting, make sure to disconnect the fuel tank fuel line from the fuel pump before starting.
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| supereal | -- 09-14-2010 @ 8:44 AM |
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The distributor can't be adjusted with the engine running. The only external change is the advance slider on the side, which doesn't affect dwell, a function of the point gaps. Dwell is checked on the car with a meter by attaching it to the low voltage terminal leading to the distributor from the coil and the other to ground before you start the engine. Trying to effectively adjust dwell without a machine is not practical. Even on the machine, the action of tightening the point screws can produce a big change in the setting. Trying to adjust anything on the front of the engine while it is running invites disaster.
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| Motor2Wheel | -- 09-14-2010 @ 10:23 AM |
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Thanks for the input. I don't really think I'm going to try adjusting the points while the engine is running. However, I have to believe that it was done this way originally by Ford mechanics in the 30's. Why else would there be access holes for adjusting them with the caps and coil in place? I do have an old dwell meter that I used to use for tuning Chevy's with the window on the distributor. I could probably make a fixture that has a variable drive motor to spin the distributor shaft. Then, with the same configuration I used to check the coil, I could mount it and use the meter to help make the adjustments. I think I'll try that out. It will be fun, anyway! Thanks, again.
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| drkbp | -- 09-14-2010 @ 6:39 PM |
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Motor2wheel, I just went through this for the last two weeks with my '35. I have to relearn the whole thing every five years or so, it seems. Positive ground and all. I take the distributor off the car. It's easier on the early V8's for sure. I don't know about the later cars. Drop the generator down and get the fan belt out of the way. Take the red wire off the coil. Unlatch the bails, take off the vacuum tube that goes to the distributor, take out the three bolts and take it out from under the car. The distributor and distributor caps will only fit back in correct one way. Not any real fun but saves hide on the hands. If it ran when you put it away, it still will. Clean the cam arms and cam rotor and put a little distributor lube on it. Be sure the distributor rotor is clean and coil contact ring is shined up. '32-'35 manual calls for .012-.014 on the point gap. It has an overlap system. I set both at .013. You can do this much easier with the thing out of the car. Be careful and have each point contact arm on "top" to set gap. Loosen the slider on the side and set it to 4 degrees before top dead center. That is where the spark should occur. Each mark is 2 degrees. There is a mark on the early distributor bodies. There are seven marks on the slider. The center mark on the slider on mine is two marks above the single distributor mark. I just looked at it. Drove it to the office today. Runs good and starts on the first revolution. Put it back in. I put in a set of Autolite 386's set at .025. I have had good results with Autolite plugs on my earlier Fords that are in the shop and they are cheap (less than $2 each). Hope this helps, Ken in Texas
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| supereal | -- 09-15-2010 @ 7:32 AM |
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I've never seen an early Ford flathead distributor that had "holes to adjust the points while running". Some other makes did have them, but not Ford.
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| TomO | -- 09-15-2010 @ 10:34 AM |
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I have not seen a flathead distributor that you could adjust the points while the engine is running, either. GM cars of the 60s and 70s had a door on the distributor cap that could be opened to adjust dwell while the engine is running. Motor2Wheel, to save time, money and aggravation, have your distributor set up on a distributor machine by a technician that has lots of experience with the flathead distributors. If the points are used, a feeler gauge will give an incorrect reading, if the points are new, they may not have the correct tension on the operating arm spring and will either wear too fast or bounce when the car is driven. Your jury rigged setup will not correctly time the points and this is the only timing available for this distributor. The charge to have the distributor properly set up is usually in the $50-$60 range and well worth it. Tom
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| Motor2Wheel | -- 09-17-2010 @ 11:45 AM |
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Thanks, DRKBP. You are right about the ease of removing the distributor, since I've done it once already to place the gap too wide. I will do it again to re-set them at 0.013", like you said. I'm heading out to the parts store to get the plugs too. Regarding the access holes in the housing, I'll see what I can do to get a photo or two to show everyone else. Hope to have her fired this weekend! Have a good one.
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-17-2010 @ 5:00 PM |
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Motor2Wheel, I suppose you know that you've just dissed the two most respected experts on this forum. Why ask questions of the experts if you don't intend to follow their freely given advice? The early Ford distributor was designed and built to be set up on a distributor machine for optimum performance, and will interchange on any Ford engine it was intended for. It can, in an emergency, be rebuilt at the side of the road with minimum tools by an owner having minimum knowledge, and as such, promises to deliver minimum performance. Alan
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| TomO | -- 09-18-2010 @ 4:35 PM |
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Alan, the man is new to the Forum and has to find out for himself who's advice he wants to take. He is entitled to his opinions and his way of doing things may give him more satisfaction than having someone else do the work. The advice given on this Forum by me is free to anyone to take or leave. Tom
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-18-2010 @ 10:14 PM |
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Tom, you're absolutely right, and Motor2Wheel, I apologize to you also. I was having a bad day, but that is no excuse, just a reason. We do enjoy a civil friendly atmosphere on our forum, and I blew it. Alan
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| Motor2Wheel | -- 09-19-2010 @ 8:57 AM |
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Alan, no appology necessary. Tom is right, I am new to old cars but not to old IC engines. Actually, I like to spend most of my free time in the garage monkeying around with stuff like this. I figure it will be hard to cause permanent damage to the motor if I follow the basic rules. I appreciate everyone's input to my initial request. Now on to yesterday's activities. I decided to install the coil back on without changing the points, just to see if I had spark. We picked up the Autolite plugs at the local NAPA, also. The outcome? Yes, we have spark now! However, it is very weak and I will be working on the point gapping today. I also have some pictures I'd like to share. This is a shot of the underside on a spare that came with the car. I think this was the "original" from our motor. The points in this unit do not have the gap adjustment screws facing the access holes. The distributor I am using now does have the screws on both sets. There are rubber plugs fitted into the holes. I hope this helps clarify what I was talking about earlier.
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| Motor2Wheel | -- 09-19-2010 @ 9:00 AM |
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Here is my coil test fixture, pretty crude, I know, but it works! I had the wife snap quite a few shots just to get one with the arc. It's nice to have good help, you know!
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| supereal | -- 09-19-2010 @ 10:15 AM |
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That's interesting, but I don't know how access through those holes would permit adjusting of the points unless there was some kind of unique point sets with a movable contact such as was used on other makes. The adjustment and locking screws on the Ford distributor face forward, and access is made by removing the lock ring and pulling out the breaker plate. The rotor turns in front of the plate, preventing reaching the screws if it is turning. Perhaps it is a kind of aftermarket setup. If you can post a photo of the breaker plate and points, it would help. In any case, trying to to anything to the flathead distributor with the engine running is not a good idea. We used to point out to novices that when using a timing light, the fan will appear to stand still, but don't reach into it!
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-19-2010 @ 12:27 PM |
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Motor2Wheel, For a short test period you'll be ok, but don't allow your coil to overheat. It is designed for 4 volts maximum, and you'll shorten it's life without a resistor. Likewise, when on your engine, your points and condenser will be short lived. On your car, the resistor is located under the dash high on the driver's side. Don't touch it while in operation or you'll find out why. Alan
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| Motor2Wheel | -- 09-20-2010 @ 10:22 AM |
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I did the check only momentarily to verify spark from the carbon. The resistor on this car is on the outside firewall due to it having been re-wired some years back. Good point on not doing it too long without the resistor in line with the coil. Thanks. I was able to get it started right after adjusting the points to .015" with a feeler gage on the bench. It lit right off with fuel dumped in the carb, but I had some problems with the water pump on the left bank. Apparently, when the car was stopped, the water was not drained. Now I have another set of problems, which will probably be a new thread!
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| Motor2Wheel | -- 09-20-2010 @ 5:35 PM |
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Here's the picture of the distributor with point backing plate. You can see the adjusting screw I mentioned earlier and the hole facing it for access. I have to clarify again that I do not have any intention of trying to adjust the points while the engine is running. It is pretty tight to get to as it is. Much easier on the bench. I LH took the pump off, which was pretty tight and found some pretty ugly deposits inside the head on the water jacket surfaces. It looks pretty bad, actually, and I'm now thinking about pulling the motor to refresh. One thing I don't want to do is just refresh or replace the pumps and run water through the motor and potentially clog the radiator. I did have an idea, though, of rigging something to maintain water in the block while recirculating it through the system. This might give me a way to see what acutally comes out of the block's water jackets. (By pass the radiator into an external system) Any ideas on this one? Thanks for listening.
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-20-2010 @ 10:01 PM |
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Motor2Wheel, I have backflushed with 2 garden hoses and no pumps installed, while running the engine. I couldn't really tell if I got any crud out, because it was draining straight to the gutter. About the crud at the head/block holes, that can easily happen if the holes are mismatched with an incorrect gasket. Those holes changed in size and shape several times. Alan
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| TomO | -- 09-21-2010 @ 8:52 AM |
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Back flushing the block will remove most of the loose crud. You can use an old nylon stocking or one leg from panty hose to catch the crud coming out of the lower hose. This is a messy job on a 34 as there are no connections for a 3/4" hose. You can make one by modifying an upper hose with a hot water heater hose connection and then blocking off the top of the hose with a plug or clamp. You will still probably have a lot of rust, casting sand and other deposits in the block after back flushing. The only way to get at these is to tear down the engine. The 34 should have aluminum heads and they can be difficult to remove. If you start to remove them you must finish the job or you will have other problems. I have seen the points and distributor set up that you have before. It was used from 1932-1935 in the model 18 and model 40 distributors. It was not meant to allow the adjustment of the contacts while the car was running, it was to be used when the contacts were timed on the KR Wilson timing fixture for fine adjustment of timing. Most of these distributors were replace with the later type distributor or had the contact point plate replaced with the more conventional type of contacts. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 9-21-10 @ 9:20 AM
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| Motor2Wheel | -- 09-21-2010 @ 10:26 AM |
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Alan and Tom, thanks for the input. The LH pump does indeed have a mis-matched gasket on it, like hand made. I wonder, do you think it really needs to be running while I perform a back flush? Great ideas and I hope to try them out next weekend. The engine is in the original-framed Victoria. The heads have been verified to be cast iron. As I learned from the great sources here, they were originally Al, but changed for the very reasons you mentioned. This was performed in the field at a shop somewhere and I have also located the stamped markings from the mechanic who supposedly did them. (Located on the top deck next to the intake at the back of the motor). It's been a great time so far just researching the car. I think I will be buying the 1934 book some time to get more details. Right now, I'm trying to get her running again. One other thing, can you hook me up with the best way to get ahold of Skip? Thanks, again, for the help. Chris. This message was edited by Motor2Wheel on 9-21-10 @ 10:31 AM
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| supereal | -- 09-21-2010 @ 10:36 AM |
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I've never seen a point setup like that. Thanks for posting the picture. I'm wondering how the lock screw that secures the movable point is accessed, and how or if the adjustment is made with the engine running. More than likely, the adjustment was designed to change the gap when the distributor was off the car, anyway. Setting the gaps of the points in the old Ford distributor is tricky, as the gap usually changes when the lock screws are tightened. Doing it while running on a machine allows us a more accurate adjustment. If anyone is doing it with just a feeler gauge, obtain a "go-no go" set for the job to get a better outcome.
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-21-2010 @ 8:18 PM |
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Motor2Wheel, Skip's website: http://www.fordcollector.com/ Skip sets up distributors, rebuilds water pumps using his high output impellers, and remanufactures Ford coils. Alan
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| TomO | -- 09-22-2010 @ 9:01 AM |
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Super, the points were not designed to be adjusted while the engine is running. The caps have to be off in order to loosen or tighten the lock nut. The opening is not really accessible when the engine is running, the crankshaft pulley and belt are in the way. My earlier post was in error about when the points were discontinued. The 1936 catalog shows the distributor with that type of contact points. Motor2Wheel,you should not run the engine while back flushing it. The water pumps will prevent the water from entering the heads and block. Tom
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| 40 Coupe | -- 09-22-2010 @ 10:06 AM |
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the 33-early 36 as well as the late 36 distributor have the windows for adjusting the points while on a distributor machine with the inner distributor caps removed and the coil installed. the 37-41 distributors do not have the windows. Take the vacuum brake adjustment and loosen the lock nut and back the screw out all the way to the stop(do not force past the stop) and then re tighten the lock nut. the problems with the old coils and condensers usually shows up after the car has run for enough time to warm the components(they go bad with the increase in temperature), looks like your ready to try and turn over to see if you have spark.
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| drkbp | -- 09-22-2010 @ 10:26 AM |
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The '36 distributor has a two screw flat top coil on it. I am not sure if the whole year was that style or not. It looks like the three screw biscuit coil distributor but the coils do not interchange. Uses the same condensor and points I believe. The '36 distributor will fit on the earlier engines and vice versa. All these coils do not have an internal resistor so you need to be sure to run your power supply through the resistor under the dash or you will cut the life of the coil short. The "adaptor plate" type (that replaces the biscuit and flat top coils) from some of the vendors uses a 6 volt coil with an internal resistor. I have one and it works fine too. The "plus" is that the coil and condensor both are available at any (most) auto parts houses. Hope this helps, Ken
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| supereal | -- 09-22-2010 @ 10:52 AM |
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We do a fair amount of distributor rebuilds in our shop, but the "adjust through the hole" types hasn't been among them. The old style certainly isn't as easy to set up as the later "pancake" type, but it is essential to have the coil in place when doing so, as attaching the coil causes the case to distort somewhat, and the pressure on the rotor also affects the point setting, which determines dwell and timing. The condenser should be in place, and the vacuum plunger is removed until the points are set, then reinstalled to set the spring tension on the plunger at various speeds and vacuum levels. With today's fuels it is seldom necessary to fiddle much with that, and most distributors run better with little or no pressure on the snubber, and with the advance slider set at maximum. We also set the full (both points together) dwell a couple of degrees less than the book says.
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| drkbp | -- 09-28-2010 @ 6:54 PM |
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Motor2Wheel, There are different types of these early distributors and they all look pretty much alike. If you still have the distributor off, look at the end of the distributor shaft. A type "B" dist is to be used with iron cylinder heads. It will not be marked on the dist shaft that mates with the engine. Those marked will have it right next to the "flat blade" that locks it with the engine. You probably have a "40B". The type "40B" was to be used with the aluminum heads, '34 to early '36. Originally, the iron were 5.5 to 1 and the aluminum were 6.3 to 1. I have iron heads but I can't remember what pistons are in the engine. I am not sure I don't have a "40B" on my '35 car right now but it sure runs good. The type "68" is the '36 distributor and "18" is '32 and "40A" is for '33. I don't think I have a "18" but I do have at least one of all the rest. I am not sure that any of them would not work just fine for you but I will defer to the experts posting on this string for the best type and head combination. Hope this helps, Ken
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