Topic: water pump new vs old?

MICHV8	-- 08-27-2010 @ 8:50 AM
	I am trying to decide if a Skip rebuild at $200 is a smarter move than new at $100+ The old design is a bushing based and the new is a sealed bearing design...is the new actually a better designed pump?
37 Coupe	-- 08-27-2010 @ 9:30 AM
	I never took cost into account when having original bushing type pumps rebuilt by Skip or using the bushing type pump in general,to me it is the only way to go on 37-48 engines.I worked as a machinest in an industry where equipment exposed to heat and water used bushings when possible,bearings when need be,but a lot times that was the point of failure. The early pumps originally designed with an oiled bushing may wear but will not seize with a bearing that seal has failed to keep water out of,it may not ever happen but the possibilty is there. I guess that most repro bearing pumps are from India or China that are supplied. If you think Skip pumps are too expensive find a couple NOS or have someone else rebuild if you don't think you will need his impellers.
wmsteed	-- 08-27-2010 @ 11:07 AM
	There was a time when parts and labor were cheap... That time is gone forever. I can remember when I was a kid, 60 plus years ago, leaking water pumps was a fact of life. It was very simple to go to Western Auto, pickup a couple of rebuild kits and in a short afternoon of work the pumps were rebuilt as good as new and would last a couple of years. That time is also gone forever.. Now to the question at hand... Is the Skip Haney pumps better than the other rebuilt pumps on the market? For my money the pumps with new style ceramic seals and sealed bearings are far away the best way to go... They work very well with coolant and a small amount of pressure can be used in the system along with a recovery tank. Is it advisable to use rebuilt old castings in lieu of new "Off Shore" manufactured pumps?... To me the answer is simple... Most of the off shore manufactured parts are borderline junk. With the difficulty of replacing a water pump plus the hassle of getting the vehicle home after it has lost it's coolant and possibly ruined an engine... The following old saying usually holds true. "The bitter taste of low quality lingers long after the sweet taste of low price" It is very true that generally speaking the original style oiled bushings will not seize where-as ball bearings will.... HOW MANY OF THE OLD FORD PEOPLE KNOW THAT THE OIL PASSAGE TO THE WATER PUMP MUST BE CLEANED WHEN EVER A PUMP IS REPLACED? EVERYONE THAT KNOWS THIS PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND. Of course the old style seals leak where-as thew new style does not. Earlier this morning I wrote a lengthy email to a friend of mine that called me for answers to how he could correct an over heating problem on a '36 Ford he is working on... He had used all of the old time fixes, washers in the hoses and cut blades off of the impellers. Funny how old habits die so hard...... Bill 36 5 win delx cpe This message was edited by wmsteed on 8-27-10 @ 11:15 AM
supereal	-- 08-27-2010 @ 11:12 AM
	The "new" pumps have dual sealed ball bearings and an improved coolant seal to go with the redesigned impeller. I agree that Skip is a fine craftsman, and if you want to stay with the old bushings and carbon seals, he can do it. When Ford went to the bearings instead of the bushings in '49, there was a water intrusion problem. Modern sealed bearings should eliminate that worry, and the "hit and miss" oiling necessary with the bushings, as well as the problem of egg shaped bushings when the belt is too tight.
37RAGTOPMAN	-- 08-27-2010 @ 5:01 PM
	I sent a set of 37 FORD SCRIPT pumps to SKIP and had him rebuild them, work good , and the best thing they actually fit on with no problems, I heard some of the new pumps have had problems fitting on, I think with SKIPS PUMPS, is a no brainer. if you were to have a problem, which I highly doubt, he stands behind his work, HE USES BUSHING in his rebuilding process, for correct oil lubing.matter of fact they come with tape over the holes.and tell in instructions to make sure your oil passages are clean in your engine before installing so you will not seize the pumps or score the bushing and shafts, and if you called him guess who answers the phone ? were the other guys is a question, my 3 cents worth,37RAGTOPMAN an KEEP ON TRUCKIN,,,, This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 8-28-10 @ 4:59 PM
TomO	-- 08-28-2010 @ 8:02 AM
	I have had bushing pumps seize on my car more than once and have seen them seize on other cars also. The machinery made and used in the pre 1970 era used bushings because they were cheaper and lasted a long time if kept properly oiled. Skips pumps work great and move much more water than the stock pumps. I do not know how the new pumps sold by Drake and Carpenter move water with their redesigned impellers. I prefer to have bearings over bushings in any rotating assembly. The ceramic seals and the sealed bearings in the new pumps should provide many years of trouble free service. Tom
oldford2	-- 08-30-2010 @ 9:48 AM
	O K, Skip's pumps at @$200 a pair and the "new design" Chinese ones at $100+ a pair. I would think the retailer marks up the wholesale price 50% or so which means he paid maybe $65+ for the pair. The assumption is that sealed ball bearings and ceramic seals are better. I went to NAPA last month for a new ball bearing for my generator. I was quoted 2 prices: one for $3.50 and one for $12.80. My point is that there are low quality bearings out there and high quality bearings out there. Which one does the new pump have? Time will tell. I have over 5000 miles on a pair of Skip's pumps and no leaks or squeals yet. Until these "new" pumps are proven, buy American and let's get some new jobs in this country. My 2 cents John
johnpoly	-- 08-30-2010 @ 10:10 AM
	I am a "Skip" fan. He did the waterpumps on by '36 and I am thrilled with the result. Average high was 200+ degrees, now down to 165 degrees on 95 degree days.
oldford2	-- 08-30-2010 @ 10:42 AM
	Tom, You are assuming that the new pumps have quality parts. Do you remember the first batches had their holes off so much they were useless? John
37RAGTOPMAN	-- 08-30-2010 @ 11:38 AM
	I am with OLDFORD on buying AMERICAN MADE PARTS, and rememeber USA ones comes with a phone number, for help when you need it, MY 3 CENTS WORTH ,,,,37RAGTOPMAN an KEEP ON TRUCKIN
supereal	-- 08-30-2010 @ 3:38 PM
	The new pumps are sold by Drake and Carpenter, so there is a place to call if you have a problem. If we had to confine all our parts purchases to strictly USA made, we wouldn't have much, if anything to buy. Even modern vehicle parts, for the most part, are now made in foreign countries. We sold our manufacturing base to get cheap prices, and we are now paying for it with a disastrous unemployment problem.
37RAGTOPMAN	-- 08-30-2010 @ 3:51 PM
	Superreal you are directly on,whats wrong, buying CHINA is the easy way out, I remember when CHINA parts were CHEAP, but just check out the cxxp you have to pay good money for,THAT'S WHY I always ask where is it made, that even goes for certain tools,and try buying new old stock AMERICAN MADE parts,if you look and know where to look you can buy well made parts,it just takes a little extra time in shopping, my 3 cents worth, 37RAGTOPMAN an KEEP on TRUCKIN,,,!!! maybe if the venders relized we would pay a little more they would have the parts made here, This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 8-30-10 @ 4:06 PM
oldford2	-- 08-30-2010 @ 5:19 PM
	Bob, It sounds like you are still pushing Drake/Carpenter water pumps because you can "call them" even though you agree to buy American. Now here is a question for you. Does your shop buy Skip's pumps or Drakes??? John
supereal	-- 08-30-2010 @ 6:09 PM
	John: So far, we haven't had to send pumps to Skip because we haven't used up our stash of his rebuilt pumps. I have the old (non turbine) pumps on my '47 convertible, and have not had a problem with heating, even though this summer has seen temps consistently above 90. We do intend to buy some of the new pumps when we need them, as I think the sealed bearings and improved seals are worth the switch. I'm not pushing either Drake or Carpenter, or the new pumps. My comment was that if we don't buy anything except USA made, you probably won't be able to buy anything at all. I consider Skip Haney a friend, and he has found pumps for us that we needed. That said, if we are shunning anything that improves the reliability of our cars because it isn't the same as the original, we run the risk of missing an overdue improvement.
FrankM-RG5	-- 08-31-2010 @ 5:47 AM
	My 49 has the bushing type with the oilers and the angled inlets. These were made during a short period. One of them had a stamped pulley. Skip rebuilt them and installed a cast iron pulley. I do not have a 1000 point car but when possible I try to restore something correctly. Sometimes aftermarket stuff looks out of place. Sometimes we have to do what we need to to get it running and these aftermarket pumps are probably great for that. I must add though that I received the pumps back within one week of Skip getting them.
37RAGTOPMAN	-- 08-31-2010 @ 5:55 AM
	I have not heard ONE ISSUE with SKIP'S pumps on this site as of yet,and few with the others, one of them not fitting, and had to modify the holes to get them on,does this sound easy? NOW they say, that has been corrected,what else is not right,? this job of changing the pumps,is not that hard, and is not easy either, but then again you have to do it more than once is jusy too much,for the saving on the pumps, my 3 cents worth, 37RAGTOPMAN an KEEP on FORDIN,,,,!!
TomO	-- 08-31-2010 @ 10:07 AM
	The first set of water pumps that I had Skip rebuild seized before I had put 100 miles on them. He was very apologetic and redid the pumps and they are still working. I have heard of others having the same problem with the same results from Skip. He does stand behind his products, but they are not trouble free. Unfortunately the price of Chinese parts has affected the quality of USA made parts as the USA manufacturers try to compete. I prefer USA made parts, but the regulations in this country are making it harder for manufacturers to make a profit and stay in business. Airtex fuel pumps used to be the best, but the quality of the last 2 that I have bought left a lot to be desired. The valves did not hold the vacuum on one and the other would not prime because the arm required more travel to move the diaphragm than the cam lift could deliver. Toyota and other manufacturers have had many recalls this year. So the point is that no one makes perfect products and as long as the retailer stands behind the product and makes sure that the majority of the product meets specifications and reliability expectations, we really don't have a say where something is manufactured. Tom
53Eddie	-- 09-03-2010 @ 9:12 PM
	How about Dennis Carpenter's pumps. I have a '53 Customline, and was thinking about getting a new one instead of rebuilding the one that's leaking like crazy.
supereal	-- 09-04-2010 @ 9:38 AM
	It is a good bet that Carpenter gets his pumps from the same source as Drake and others. This is typical of vendors. Carpenter is famous for rubber parts, Drake for trim and body items, and others have their specialty. For instance, if you order rubber parts from Drake, it usually comes in a Carpenter wrapping. Due to the costs involved in manufacturing, it isn't practical for duplication of items by several sources. The upside is that most of these parts made by top vendors are also very good quality. Beware of those offering very low prices.
GM	-- 09-05-2010 @ 7:05 AM
	Tom and Super you two just don't want to accept or acknowledge the fact that Skip has solved the cooling problems with his pumps that deliver more water than any other pump made for these cars. Tom you were fast to mention on this forum that you had one of Skips pumps seize up in 100 miles. The TRUE story is you had 2 sets of Skips pumps that seized. What you didn't mention being the "guesspert" you are is that YOU applied a large amount of silicon sealer on the surfaces of the pump and block and plugged the oil passages blocking the oil to lubricate the pumps which is what caused the failures. It wasn't discovered by Skip until they came back the second time. For your information only a thin film of grease on both sides of the gasket is all that is required. And I might add that out of over 4,000 sets of pumps you are the only one I am aware of that has had a bushing failure which is very rare even in original pumps that were used for 40 or 50 years. Super you just don't want to give Skip any help or credit for what he has done to improve the cooling on these engines. Years ago you were running a 15 lb or higher radiator cap and temperatures up over 210 which you posted on this forum but later say you didn't and all of a sudden you are running cooler. I suspect you are running Skips pumps on your car but would never admit it. Why do I suspect this? You ordered a set of pumps from Skip for an engine you were rebuilding for someone and it turned out you sent in and ordered the the wrong pumps. You sent in 59-A pumps and you needed 8BA pumps which I believe your son discovered this as he was installing them. You then sent in a set of the correct pumps and said you would keep the 59-A pumps for YOUR car. I wonder if this has anything to do with the sudden drop in cooing temperatures in your car??? You have also ordered other sets of pumps from Skip yet you don't acknowledge this on this forum. The 32 to 48 pumps were not made for bearings. In 49 they made the pumps longer in the front giving much more distance between the water seal and the bearing. The water is thrown off the shaft with this longer distance and does not reach the face of the bearing. On the 37 to 48 pumps this distance is short and the super hot water distorts the bearing seal and water ruins the bearing. This locks the bearing and the car is dead and the pump needs to be replaced on the spot or towed. Bushing failure is VARY RARE and is caused by improper clearance between the shaft and bushing, a fan belt that is tightened with a large pry bar with no play at all or very thin oil in the 37 to 48 engines. Why don't you two guys stick to advice in areas that you know and don't try to mislead others in places you don't understand. It seems like you want to answer every question that comes up on this forum whether you know the answer or not. G.M.
supereal	-- 09-05-2010 @ 10:26 AM
	Wow! Welcome back, George. Yes, I do still have the pumps from Skip, but haven't installed them on my car, as it still runs fine, even after one of the hottest summers here on record. As for Tom, myself, and others who are regular contributors to the Forum, none of us claim to have all the answers. If those seeking information find us "misleading" and that we "don't understand" what we are saying, they should say so. Personal attacks never helped anybody to solve a problem or find a source, and your vitriol hasn't been missed.
TomO	-- 09-07-2010 @ 1:41 PM
	George, I have never used silicone gasket material on any car. I only had one set of pumps that froze. I still have the pumps that were repaired on my shelf in the garage. The point of my post in this topic was that any manufacturer or repair facility can have problems with a product. I did not dispute the fact that Skip's pumps move more water than Henry's and that there are may customers of Skip's that are satisfied with his pumps. Tom
larryb346	-- 09-07-2010 @ 3:28 PM
	Ya know, I have no dog in this fight, but it's too bad GM can't keep his smart mouth shut and stop attacking people Everyone is entitled to a opinion as long as it agrees with his. His personal attacks sure have been missed the last few months!! Perhaps if he continues attacking and personal attacks he could be banned. I for one have no interest in reading his rants against other people Larry
GM	-- 09-08-2010 @ 7:19 AM
	Tom if you read my post I said it was one set of pumps. After Skip repaired them the first time the same set of pumps came back after about a month with the same problem. I was there when Skip called me and said "look at this" and pulled out a black piece of silicon sealant the size of a rat dropping. He cleans every pump oil cavity and oil passage so it wasn't there on the first rebuild. I guess the mailman did it. And I doubt you were charged even though the problem was your fault. I never saw another set of pumps he rebuilt that had a gauled shaft so it's easy to remember. I can still see where he was and how he was holding the pump pulling the silicon out with tweezers. G.M
ford38v8	-- 09-08-2010 @ 10:50 AM
	There is but one man in the V8 Club that I knowingly avoid when I see him. There is another whom I've never met, and so very glad I haven't. That's a shame, too, because I've always wanted to see Florida. Alan
Stroker	-- 09-08-2010 @ 2:01 PM
	Alan, Super, et al: I'm getting ready to send a couple of 48 pumps to Skip for rebuild. Should I send a note with them telling Skip to not allow George Mitch*ll to inspect them? I'm thinking that George M keeps track of Skip's pumps. Is this like "large brother" or what? Dan
GM	-- 09-08-2010 @ 9:41 PM
	Dan, I had a collection of 50 cars, mostly old Fords and Skip worked for me for about 20 years. I developed a few improvements for my own use on the old Fords so I could drive them. I told Skip he could do these modifications for others and it is his own deal. He got so busy he could no longer work for me and do the repairs for others. I let him use my shop for the pumps and does the coils at home. When you rebuild parts such as water pumps there can be problems that show up from time to time and when it happens several times you have to take a good look to see what caused the problem and check things better or make changes. When something strange happens Skip usually shows me and asks my opinion and we come up with a solution so it don't happen again. When the pumps mentioned above came back the second time with gauled shafts due to the lack of lubrication he showed me the shaft then discovered the silicon blocking the oil hole in the pump. If I recall as this was several years ago only one pump had the silicon and shaft damage and the other pump didn't have silicon and was OK. The shaft bushings are all reamed for a specific clearance and when assembled Skip being a one man operation knows the feel of the shaft that is ground to the exact size when inserted in the bushings. Bushings fit properly will last for 30 years or longer if properly lubricated and the belt is not super tight with no play. There is very little wear on the bushings of the pumps that come for modifications and some of these are original pumps that ran for many years. You need about 1/2" to 3/4" play on the belt half way between the pump and generator. Every pump is tested for at least 5 minutes pumping water on a test machine and the pumping information recorded in his log. After taken off the machine he blows them dry, feels how they turn and primes them. Any slight variation found when testing the pump is disassembled and checked. G.M.
don1950ford	-- 09-09-2010 @ 9:07 AM
	well, heees back. he got asked not to advertize or make umpleasant remarks in posts on fordbarn, so.... maybe next it will be on HAMB? As to clearify Vitriol: something highly caustic or severe in effect, as criticism. harsh or corrosive in tone; "an acerbic tone piercing otherwise flowery prose"; "a barrage of acid comments"; "his acrid remarks make him many enemies"; "bitter words"; "blistering criticism"; "caustic responses about water pumps, experienced mechanics and other people’s openions"; "a sulfurous denunciation"; "a vitriolic critique", disagreeable to the senses, to the mind, or feelings ; "an unpleasant personality"; "unpleasant repercussions" i do not know how GM thinks these caustic remarks help his and skips business. if i replied to my customers in that manner i would not have many left. but, he is the spoksman for skips and he is all knowing and has an aptitude for insulting anyone who disagrees with his openion.
larryb346	-- 09-09-2010 @ 8:12 PM
	I agree in the horrible spokesperson for skip. GM's attitude toward others on this excellent forum need to be addressed. In using the search function, his first post since feb., was his rant about the pumps on this post. Really missed him. Perhaps another choice on the outburst. Perhaps he is just sick like below.At lease if that is the case he could get treatment. Narcissism is categorized as a personality disorder by the mental health profession. It is referred to as NPD or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Few are ever diagnosed because few go to therapy. Narcissism is not high self-esteem, but a condition where the typical narcissist suffers from * Preoccupation with hiding real or perceived flaws * Overestimation of importance, achievements, talents and skills * Maladaptive attention seeking behavior * Inability to empathize with others * Excessive anger and shame in response to criticism often resulting in rage The narcissist will often manipulate others, especially partners, to control them. Projection and blame are hallmarks of this manipulation. It is estimated that 85% of narcissists are males.
ford38v8	-- 09-09-2010 @ 11:10 PM
	OK, enough. Let's not become guilty of what GM is accused of. George, You have our respect and appreciation of your knowledge and accomplishments, but only Henry Ford himself gets our veneration. Can't we all just get along now? Alan
GM	-- 09-10-2010 @ 7:22 AM
	Alan go back and read the posts I respond to and you will find the same little group tries to make others believe that the modified pumps don't do much to improve cooling. The same ones all join in each time I respond to a false or misleading statement. One of the long time heaklers was called down for his comments by a number of posters and changed his name but not his tactics. The same ones can continue to make false statements and if I respond I'm the vilan. Most people on these forums know how many old Fords are now drivable from Skips coils and pumps, the problem is there are new people on here all the time and can benifit from what has helped at least 15,000 old Fords over the past 13 years with simple bolt on improvements. My intentions are to help others to get their old Fords running so they can enjoy them as a lot of us do. If Skip gets a little help off here that's good to he deserves it for what he has done for so many. Most of his business is for other cars the that are owned by a customer and friends telling others how the improvments worked on their cars. If I find other products that work good I also tell readers and describe the products, the IH-200 condenser, NGK plugs, airtex fuel pumps, gadgiteers flex hose, uncle Max's stromberg carb. service just to mention a few. If I answer a question about water pumps or even a question specificly about Skips pumps it's taken by some as an add for Skip wkich is not the purpose, my main purpose is to help get the problem solved or answer the question. Tom we never had any problems but I was a little surprised by one of your recent posts, it didn't seem to fit you.. G.M.
don1950ford	-- 09-10-2010 @ 8:01 AM
	george, all these people are asking you to do is to say: "for more information on high volume skips pumps, please contact the following web site "WWW.fordsrus.com (or how ever it is spelled) or call the following telephone number for more information on how the pumps work" From YOU we are asking: no name calling, no insulting people, no caustic remarks, no sales pitches, respect other peoples opeions that may be different than yours, allow people to post fixes that may be different than yours without screaming at them and insulting them or telling them they are wrong. just refer them to your web site and/or telephone number and let it go. be nice. we all know you invented the pumps and gave the bussiness to skip. let him run it. maybe you can just stay in the background and answer the telephone for skip and web requests for information. do your sales there, not on here. thank you so much for any consideration, don (and probably a bunch of other people that should also post their dis-satisfaction with your caustic postings so you can see that there are more than just a few whiners, but real people out here on the V8 site)
TomO	-- 09-10-2010 @ 10:14 AM
	George, I do not want to continue to harp on the failure of the pumps that Skip rebuilt for me,but I have to correct your misrepresentation. I sent one set of pumps to Skip for rebuild, I installed them on my car and the left pump seized within the first 50 miles. I put on my used pumps and sent the sized pump to Skip. He rebuilt the pump again at no cost to me. I re installed the pumps on my car and the right pump failed before I had driven it another 20 miles. I changed both pumps and continued on the tour. I sent the right pump back to Skip for repair and he again rebuilt it at no charge. I installed Speedway pumps on my car while I was waiting for the pump from Skip and have not removed them because I have been satisfied with the performance. As I have said in many posts in this forum, Skips pumps do move more water than any other that I have used and that cooling requires a sufficient quantity of water and air moving through the radiator. Reducing either one or both will cause over heating. Despite your claims, Skip is not infallible, he is not God and like every other human makes mistakes. Unlike you, he is willing to admit to his humanity and willing to stand behind his work. Neither I, Supereal or other contributors to this Forum have claimed to know all there is to know about the flathead era cars, but you continue to say that any solution that has worked for you is the only solution to the problem. Wake up and realize that no one knows all of the answers all of the time and that each situation is different. This is my last contribution to this tirade. Tom
kubes40	-- 09-11-2010 @ 5:05 PM
	Ford script pumps didn't come out until May, 1947, so to have a set in 37... well, just not possible
chucky	-- 02-06-2022 @ 1:54 PM
	Does Skip Haney always change to the high flow water pump vanes or is it a special request
TomO	-- 02-07-2022 @ 7:50 AM
	He always uses the improved impeller according to his website. http://www.fordcollector.com/water_pumps.htm Tom

EFV-8 Club Forum :	https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum
Topic:	https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=18&Topic=1772