| lightflyer1 | -- 08-26-2010 @ 1:03 PM |
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My friend has a 1936 Ford Coupe and recently had the engine block crack. A new engine was built and shipped and installed. Upon startup it starts and idles fine. The problem is overheating. Skips pumps installed but no the pressure valve. New radiator and clutch and pressure plate as well. After 15 minutes or so it starts overheating and chugging water out of the radiator. 225 degrees on the gauge. Shutdown to cool off. It is hot here in Texas now (Austin) and was 107 that day. I told him to try again the next day with an electric fan on the radiator and to follow some of the break in instructions I found here. Any suggestions on problems or issues we may have overlooked? I told him about possibly having an air pocket and to be sure to try and insure it is full. 50/50 water/antifreeze. Thanks for your help! This message was edited by lightflyer1 on 8-26-10 @ 1:04 PM
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| supereal | -- 08-26-2010 @ 2:08 PM |
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It sounds as if the engine may have been set up too tight. Many "rebuilders" use present day clearances with bearings and rings instead of the correct ones for flatheads. When the engine reaches operating temperature, the clearances diminish, causing the engine to overheat. This is particularly true if pistons were not properly fitted to the bores. The pattern you outline is typical of that problem, and usually shows up as an engine that is so tight the starter can't budge it when it is hot. High ambient temperatures don't help, but a properly set up engine will run with the temp well below boiling, even though it is hotter than usual. I suspect the engine will have to go back to the place where it was assembled.
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| lightflyer1 | -- 08-26-2010 @ 2:40 PM |
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It was built here: http://www.flatheadcity.com/home.html Any one have any experience with them?
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| MG | -- 08-26-2010 @ 3:42 PM |
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lightflyer1, I like your idea about an air-pocket as a possible cause of the over-heating. If the car is outside you might want to stick a garden hose in the radiator and run the engine with the petcocks open for awhile. This would probably clear the air-pocket and allow the engine to run longer without fear of overheating.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 08-26-2010 @ 4:14 PM |
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what I would do it wait till night, place a house fan in front of the radiator.on a stand on some sort of stand and let it blow at high speed for a couple of hours,BREAK IT IN, see if this keep it from overheating, some engines just need a little runnning in, stay with it be sure to keep a eye on it, if you gets hot. shut it off and come back the next day and do it over.till it runs cooler. but when it is hot outside it will run hot, are you using a temp gauge ?, pouring out and over the top does not mean it is running to hot,coolant will expand and come out the neck, use a thermometer in the neck, WHAT TEMP is it? 180 would be normal even a little higher with a new engine,just do not let it get to STEAM.BOILING POINT, this would be bad, I installed SKIPS VALVE. and it seems to keep the coolant in were it belongs, I am assuming the raditor is in GOOD CONDITION,has it been cleaned ? LET'S HEAR HOW YOU MADE OUT. 37RAGTOPMAN and KEEP ON TRUCKIN,,,!!!!!!!!!!! This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 8-30-10 @ 5:06 AM
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| TomO | -- 08-27-2010 @ 7:39 AM |
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Is the engine just idling when it overheats? If so, try driving it at varying speeds of 30-40 mph. If it is overheating when driving, I would first try changing to water with a rust inhibitor and water pump lubricant. I would as add Water Wetter or Purple Ice to reduce the surface tension of the water. Skip recommend driving without thermostats with his pumps. Tom
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| lightflyer1 | -- 08-27-2010 @ 7:57 AM |
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Using a gauge for temp. Not the car gauge. No thermostats being used. At idle it seems fine. It is when driving it gets hot he said. Couldn't make it around the block. I am going over tomorrow and have a look at it. I will try and bleed the system to insure it is completely full and stays that way. I will let you know how it turns out.
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| supereal | -- 08-27-2010 @ 8:23 AM |
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It is unlikely that any "air pockets" exist after driving the car as much as said, if the radiator level was kept at least to the bottom of the filler neck. There are things that produce, or aid, overheating. Dragging brakes, too lean fuel mixture, incorrect timing, restricted exhaust, incorrect valve lash, and a slipping water pump belt all are possibilities. It is also possible that an incorrect or leaking head gasket is at fault. I'd bet the engine will have to come back out and be sent to the rebuilder, or someone who can find the cause.
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| lightflyer1 | -- 08-27-2010 @ 9:28 AM |
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Timing was set at 4 degrees BTDC (he said that is spec). He was wondering about messing with the timing. I told him to leave it for now, if that is spec. Have to start somewhere. I also mentioned a lean mixture as well to him. Would re jetting have to be done if this is the case? Brakes and exhaust appear to be okay and functional . Anything internal to the engine itself will have to be sent back to the builder. Supposedly the builder recommended flow restrictors (thermostats or washer with hole in the middle)in the water lines. This causes me to worry. There seem to be two trains of thought on this. Too much water flow through the engine /radiator and too little. I will check all fluids and belts before starting. I am suggesting to put a fan in front tomorrow morning when it is cool and let it idle for awhile while watching it and see what it does and for how long it can run before it gets hot. He is of course worried about having to pull it and return to the builder. Has anyone here had any experience with Flathead City? http://www.flatheadcity.com/home.html
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| supereal | -- 08-27-2010 @ 11:18 AM |
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That timing shouldn't figure in your problem. I would be concerned about anyone who still thinks the water goes thru the radiator "too fast". Cooling is a zero sum situation. The longer the water stays in the engine, the hotter it becomes. The radiator has a limited ability to transfer heat to air, so the faster the coolant moves, the more efficient the transfer. That is why the new turbine design pumps increase cooling. This belief that the coolant "needs to slow down" has existed for years, and is baloney.
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| TomO | -- 08-28-2010 @ 8:16 AM |
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From your description of the problem,(idles OK, overheats when driving), I would look for a valve timing problem. Hook up a vacuum gauge to the ww port and check the vacuum. If it is low, pull the timing cover and check the relationship of the cam and crank gears. Check both gears for wear also. Also do a cylinder balance test by shorting out the plugs one at a time and watching the vacuum gauge. The vacuum drop should be the same for each of the cylinders. If not check the plugs for correct gap. Another check to do is try to move the rotor. If the rotor or distributor shaft is worn, timing can change at road speeds. Skips pumps should move enough water to keep the engine cool unless there is a restriction in the cooling system. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 8-28-10 @ 8:21 AM
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| 1933 | -- 08-29-2010 @ 6:10 PM |
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Your engine is just plain to tight. I had the same problem with my V8. Tried all the other solutions,no luck. We took the motor apart and found that the pistons had .001 clearence. No Good. I also had bent rods due to this problem. We put new pistons in with .003 , yes .003 clearance, and it now runs just fine. Running down the road in 90 degree weather , I get 155-160 degress. Let it idle 15 min. and the temp will rise to 180.
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| lightflyer1 | -- 08-30-2010 @ 10:26 AM |
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Incorrect belt was used resulting in it not being tight enough. Replaced belt with proper one. Recharged battery. Testing now for correct running at temp. We had several successes driving on Sat.. Will keep checking it.
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| lightflyer1 | -- 08-30-2010 @ 4:36 PM |
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He decided to reinstall thermostats and see if it made a difference. None still overheated. My suggestion at this point to him as he is reticent to send it back, is to remove thermostats and drive it everyday close to home and get it back if the temp starts going up. Park until cool and try again. As supereal has stated I believe the engine is too tight. Hopefully running it in a little (carefully) every day, may let it loosen up some. I am not privy really as to what the builder and he have discussed or not discussed.
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| supereal | -- 08-31-2010 @ 6:49 AM |
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Generally, running a too tight engine will seldom fix the problem, particularly if the piston fit was wrong. It depends on the type and quality of the cylinder honing. If the cylinders were bored to eliminate taper, and then honed to spec leaving a good crosshatch pattern, it may improve. If the rod and main bearings are too tight, the usual outcome is failure of one or more of the inserts. Same is true if the piston ring gaps were not adequate.
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| lightflyer1 | -- 08-31-2010 @ 8:41 AM |
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Sounds like I have done all I can to help him. It will now be between him and the builder for resolution. Thanks for all your help with this issue!
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| ole_Bill | -- 09-01-2010 @ 6:44 AM |
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You guys are scaring the pee out of me. I'm about to take delivery of a rebuilt 59A from a local rebuilder who comes highly recommended. I never considered that I might have these kinds of problems. Is this common?
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| TomO | -- 09-01-2010 @ 7:09 AM |
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If you supplied the shop with the specs for your engine or they had them from previous experience, you should not have a problem. If you have any concerns, discuss them with the shop owner as he has all of the information about how your engine was assembled. Tom
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| supereal | -- 09-01-2010 @ 7:48 AM |
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As usual, I agree with TomO. The clearances for flatheads are quite different from modern engines. Your rebuilder should have those on hand before starting the job. If anyone needs them, I can post them directly from the Ford engine manual dated July 7, 1947, covering the '37-'48 models. Anyone having, or contemplating, a rebuild should receive a written warranty, along with conditions that must be met to keep the warranty valid, before giving the go-ahead. We began that policy years ago, and it protects both parties from misunderstandings regarding the duties of each.
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| 39 Ken | -- 09-02-2010 @ 3:33 AM |
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Bob, Please post that sheet. We're just pulling a 221 for rebuild and that will help in preparing the builder. Thanks. Ken
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 09-02-2010 @ 4:36 PM |
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ole bill when you pickup the 59AB,just take a socket and a breaker bar,and turn over the engine, and see if it moves, it will have drag on it, but not like it is stuck, 37RAGTOPMAN and KEEP on FORDIN, GOOD LUCK with that new rebuild, get it in and running before you sell your old engine,
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| lightflyer1 | -- 09-03-2010 @ 1:37 PM |
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Update: Made some more runs and it seems to be doing pretty good now. Not boiling over and running around 170. Trying to stay around 30 to 40 mph. Speed up and slowing down at times to break in. Temps are cooler right now so that is good.
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| supereal | -- 09-03-2010 @ 1:51 PM |
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Ken39: Here is a copy of our general warranty page. We do use others for more specific jobs, but it should give you an idea of what we believe is a necessary document when contracting for a large scale (expensive) job.
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