| Dream38v8 | -- 05-22-2024 @ 5:22 AM |
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Back in 2016 when my wife bought me my dream car it would kill when it got hot. This Forum recommended I get a new/rebuilt coil from Skip Haney. I did and that solved the problem. Today the car will not start. It will only crank without firing. I removed a spark plug wire and could not observe any spark jumping to the plug or cylinder head. I keep the battery charged. The battery is less than 2 years old. I miss driving my '38. Any help diagnosing my problem would be appreciated. Thank you in advance. Ray
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| same | -- 05-22-2024 @ 6:57 AM |
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sounds like you may need a new condenser imo.i'm sure others will chime in. Tom. possibly new coil. This message was edited by same on 5-22-24 @ 6:58 AM
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| carcrazy | -- 05-22-2024 @ 10:39 AM |
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The no start condition could be the result of something simple like an open circuit in the ignition primary wiring circuit. If the car has been stored in an area of high humidity, some of the connections in the primary circuit may have corroded causing poor conductivity. Check all of these connections for corrosion, clean them as required and reconnect them so they are tight.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 05-22-2024 @ 10:55 AM |
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Thanks same and Carcrazy. I last ran the car in March and everything was ok. I replaced the condenser with one I had in the trunk. I am not sure of its status. I tried to start the car again. It cranked and fired for about 5 seconds. As I tried to give the car more gas it died. Now I seem to back where I started. Maybe this found condenser is also bad. I've driven the car approximately 5000 miles since I replaced the coil and condenser with Skip's. The condenser that was in the car was from NAPA (FA49?). I thinking of running to NAPA for another condenser. Thanks Ray
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 05-22-2024 @ 3:47 PM |
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HI to test the primary circuit, with the key on do you get test light to light when you put on the coil terminal ? or using a meter it should read 3 1/2 volts, Look for loose terminals or corrosion also check out your resistor should have elect on both terminals , in and out if not I would try a jumper lead from the battery to the coil terminal, and see if it starts, DO not run this for a few seconds only, maybe a 1-2 minute or so if it starts this will heat up the coil you also may have to clean the points, maybe are corroded, or have oil on them,??? lets hear how you made out, hope this helps 37Ragtopman,Maine
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| 40 Coupe | -- 05-23-2024 @ 4:54 AM |
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Don't use old condensers since they can go bad with time. Yes call NAPA or order order a magnito condenser.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 05-23-2024 @ 3:16 PM |
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It was the condenser! My spare was bad. I bought a new one from NAPA (FA29) and the car started immediately. Now I need to buy another condenser. Thanks to all. Ray
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| Dream38v8 | -- 05-24-2024 @ 3:42 PM |
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37RAGTOPMAN, I plan to try your jumper idea tomorrow. If it starts what does this prove? I will also get my test light out for the coil terminal. You also mentioned a resistor. Is this the one under the dash? Yesterday I installed the new NAPA (FA49) condenser and the car started immediately. Next I went for a 15 minute drive ('38 ran great). Today I started the car again to go for a drive. It started right away and ran for 15-20 seconds and quit. Now the car wont start. My guess either the condenser is bad or something else caused the condenser to fail. Any ideas? Thanks Ray
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| carcrazy | -- 05-24-2024 @ 8:05 PM |
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How old are your spark plugs? I once had a set of Champion H-10s with about 9,600 miles on them totally fail and produce no spark. The car wouldn't even try to start when using ether starting fluid. It had no spark. I replaced the old plugs with a brand new set and the engine promptly started and drove for hundreds of miles with no problems.
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| JayChicago | -- 05-25-2024 @ 6:42 AM |
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Your new condenser could have gone bad. They are fragile inside, and I have read reports of many new condensers being bad right out of the box. However, I have also read that the NAPA condensers have a reputation for being reliable; but that doesn't mean you didn't get a bad one. When I have bought a condenser in the past, I bought two of them on the chance one of them may not be good. Seems like a new condenser solved your problem the first time. I would try another new condenser.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 05-25-2024 @ 11:07 AM |
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Jay, I've been running a set of Autolite 216s since 2016. I checked them earlier this year to regap. They looked dirty full of carbon. Should I switch to a hotter plug? Thanks Ray
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| same | -- 05-25-2024 @ 12:35 PM |
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Ray, i wouldnt go with a hotter plug yet. you may have to adjust your air/fuel mixture. runnin a little rich. you say carboned up-can you scr*pe a layer of carbon off the land of the plugs at end of threads?. Tom.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 05-25-2024 @ 6:18 PM |
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Yes,I did scr*p off the excess carbon the best I could. Ray
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| carcrazy | -- 05-25-2024 @ 9:40 PM |
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If you want to stick with approximately the same heat range as the Champion H-10 but want to go with a different brand, a couple of options are the NGK B6L listed under Van Pelt part number 7RA-12405N or the Motorcraft plugs listed under C&G part number 7RA-12405.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 05-29-2024 @ 2:19 PM |
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Here we go again. NAPA replaced my initial condenser (FA49) today. Their original one failed after 15 minute drive and approximately 20 seconds run the next day. NAPA replace the condenser today. I started the car and it ran for less than 5 seconds. Are these NAPA condensers from a bad manufacturing batch? What can cause a condenser to fail? 37Ragtopman I connected a test light to the coil terminal and it lit up. Since NAPA replaced the defective on at no cost I thought I would give them a second chance. If everyone agrees I ran into a bad batch of condensers I will buy a Hunt's 33mfd magneto condenser. The Hunt's magneto condenser route was recommended by "Kube". My concern is that something else is causing the condenser to fail. Thanks, Ray
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| carcrazy | -- 05-29-2024 @ 5:03 PM |
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What voltage is being delivered to your coil? Are you running a coil adapter to allow the use of a remote cylindrical coil? If you are using an original coil, the voltage at the coil should be reduced from 6V to approximately 3V by the resistor mounted under the instrument panel. If you are using an external remote 6V coil with an internal resistor, you will want to have 6V at the coil.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 05-29-2024 @ 6:04 PM |
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Carcrazy, I'm using a standard coil rebuilt by Skip. Not being an electrical guy how do I test for 3V at the coil? Ray
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| same | -- 05-29-2024 @ 7:16 PM |
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Ray, you say youv'e been running the same set of autolite 216s since 2016? its prolly time to for a new set. i buy my autolites at oreilly auto parts. i happen to use 386 in my '37 it takes an 18mm plug. are your drives limited to short ones?if your not getting the eng temp up to 180deg the motor will carbon up quicker especially in colder weather. i still think you need to ckeck your air/ fuel mix with the two brass screws at base of carb facing the firewall. sounds like more carbon deposit on plugs than worth cleaning. the failing coil and condenser will contribute to incomplete burn of air/fuel mix=lots of carbon. good luck ,,Tom.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 05-29-2024 @ 8:33 PM |
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Same, I have a new set of 216s to install. I wanted to get the condenser issue working first. Once the car is running I'll adjust the carb. Ray
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| carcrazy | -- 05-29-2024 @ 9:23 PM |
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Ray, To check for voltage at the coil, use a voltmeter (or multimeter in the volts reading range) and connect the + wire of the voltmeter to ground and the - wire of the voltmeter to the terminal on the top of the coil with the ignition switch turned on.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 05-30-2024 @ 7:20 AM |
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Same, I tested the village as you suggested. The attached picture shows how I had the bolt meter set. The reading was 1.59v with the key on. I tried several different ground locations and had the same reading. Was the bolt meter set correctly? Thanks Ray
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| Drbrown | -- 05-30-2024 @ 7:55 AM |
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Try this .... You can do a functional check on condensers using a simple analog volt meter, the kind with a meter that has a needle. Set the meter to the olms setting and measure the resistence. With a good condensor the needle should jump towards zero then move towards infinity as you make contact with it. Then switch the meter leads and do it again. This time the needle should jump about twice as far because the first time you are putting a charge of 1.5 volts on the capacitor. When you reverse the leads, you are reversing the charge so the needle will jump further. One end of the capacitor must be disconected from the circuit. If the meter has some selection, choose a high resistence range. If the needle stops at a resistence value other than infinity, it is leaking the charge and is bad. Regardless, as noted, lots of NOS and reprodution condensersits often are defective due to aging or otherwise. As you've discovered sometimes best to just replaceit. Regarding plugs .... my car came with Champion H-11's (hotter that stock H-10's) and they have been working fine ever since. Go figure. This message was edited by Drbrown on 5-30-24 @ 8:00 AM
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| same | -- 05-30-2024 @ 8:02 PM |
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Ray, your conversation about testing voltage at the coil was with carcrazy. Tom. and another thing the new plugs might be a big part of carbon fouling solution for you. like someone else said in this thread,that their plugs just were not firing any longer after 9,600mi. dont quote me on that miles. keep on keepin on. Tom. This message was edited by same on 5-30-24 @ 8:05 PM
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| Dream38v8 | -- 05-31-2024 @ 4:31 AM |
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Same and et al, yesterday I determined no spark is getting to the plugs. I removed a plug wire and connected it to a plug. Tried to start the car and there was no spark at the plug. I discussed this with our local V8 guru. I am going to remove the distributers. He will replace the points (he has all the necessary equipment and good points). I purchased the car in 2016 from a friend who purchased it in 2002. I am not sure when the points were last replaced, but it was prior to 2002. I will update the Forum once the distributers are back in the car. Thanks to all! Ray
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| Robert/Texas | -- 05-31-2024 @ 7:18 AM |
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This could be your problem. About two years ago when my '37 Ford behaved like yours I discovered that the nibs on the inner caps were rubbed off. Some previous owner had used thin paper gaskets instead of cork ones. When I replaced these with new caps and cork gaskets the engine fired right up.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 06-01-2024 @ 12:43 PM |
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I will be removing the distributor tomorrow. Is there any hints or tricks I need to be aware of before I start? It looks straight forward. - disconnect the battery - remove the coil - remove both distributor caps - remove the bolts holding the distributor to the block Probably need to remove the fan first. How long is the distributor shaft? Thanks, Ray
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| RAK402 | -- 06-03-2024 @ 9:38 AM |
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One thing (that probably isn't it, but is worth looking at) is to check that the band around the distributor rotor is clean and that the brush on the bottom of the coil is making solid contact with it. A few months ago, I was going through distributors and setting the timing on a K.R. Wilson fixture. I always use a coil when I do this-not for electrical reasons but because the spring on the bottom of the coil exerts pressure on the breaker plate and can affect timing. I noticed on two of my old coils (that I thought were bad) the brush was worn to the point that it just missed touching the band on the rotor. This is very easy to see on the bench, but very difficult to see when the distributor is installed on the car. This would have prevented any spark from the distributor. This message was edited by RAK402 on 6-3-24 @ 10:18 AM
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| carcrazy | -- 06-03-2024 @ 11:51 AM |
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You can check to be sure the brush on the bottom of the coil (or coil replacement adapter) is making contact with the metal ring on the rotor while the distributor is still mounted on the engine. Simply remove the inner and outer side distributor caps on one side of the distributor and look inside using a small mirror and a flash light.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 06-12-2024 @ 5:12 AM |
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Follow-up to my latest activities attempting to get the '38 started. 1) New (different) distributor with new points set according to spec using the correct procedures 2) Different condenser used when adjusting the points on the new (different) distributor 3) Reassembled distributor, coil (Coil from Skip in 2016) and condenser 4) Car still wouldn't start 5) Put a jumper between the (- black) battery terminal and the coil 6) Car started, but ran extremely rough. When I tried to rev the engine the car stopped running. 7) Since I jumped around the ignition resister to get the car to run is this the issue? 8) Is the coil the issue? I had a similar issue with my '69 Dart GT years ago. The car would start and when I put a load on the engine it would falter and quit. Replaced the coil and the car ran with no ad issue. I wanted to drive my '38 on "Drive Your V8 Day", but the outlook is not good. Thanks Ray
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| same | -- 06-12-2024 @ 7:15 AM |
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ray,what i have done may or may not help your start problem and some here and on the ford barn may not agree with my solution. when i got my '37 flathead 4+yrs ago it came with a remote modern coil and condenserwhich worked for about a year or so. i could tell they were failing. it was becomming harder to start. i then ordered a new coil from either dennis carpenter or macs/ecklers and a new condenser from NAPA this combo worked for a yr maybe. found through some research that that the coil from macs/ecklers produce about 10,000 volts.i don't know what the distributor mounted coil from skip put out. i have within 2 mo. ago gotten a hotter coil 25,000 volts blue streak UC14T standard motor parts. and i went to a FD-72 condenser from same co. i was getting a couple bad condensers from napa. so far for me the fd-72 have been good. Tom.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 06-12-2024 @ 7:36 AM |
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Tom, very interesting. Is your '37 still 6v +ground? How is your coil connected to the distributor? Are you still using the standard '37 distributor? Ray
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| same | -- 06-12-2024 @ 9:11 AM |
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Ray,'37 is still 6volt +grnd like i had said prev owner had the oe 3 bolt tall coil mounted to helmet oe dist. the modern can style coil i still have mounted on left/drivers side cyl. head with wire from top side of helmet coil to + post on modern can coil. wire from - post of modern coil goes to dash to ignition switch. the high tention center connector on can coil goes into through hole on top of orig coil on top of helmet dist. this sytem seems to work. has the same points which i havn't replaced in 4+yrs and 7,000mi. i drive pretty much every day. like i said same ign. set up newre hotter can coil and luck with better condenser. its a cr*p shoot with condensers,most members on here or the ford barn would agree. iv'e had better luck with standard motor products mexico built than the napa eichlin condenser china built now.its important to get the correct mfd rated condenser so as keep from arcing and pitting the points. withe the latest FD-72 smp cond. and the new smp blue streak can coil combo the motor starts right away. sure hopes this makes some sense Ray. Tom. I will add that the pev owner had or did the ign. conversion i'm not sure how long ago. i'm the 3rd owner of'37 and the old gent before me had owned since 1956.allways garaged i know that much as i can tell by condition of the car. iv'e been around and under the car allot in 4yrs iv'e owned it.I do think the ign.conversion took place before speedway or others came up with a block off cover plate to fit on top of orig helmet dist.to use remote can coil. This message was edited by same on 6-12-24 @ 9:33 AM
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| Dream38v8 | -- 06-12-2024 @ 2:43 PM |
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Tom, your solution works for you, but is a little to complicated for me. I leaning towards the ignition resistor and / or the coil. By connecting the coil directly to the battery I removed the resistor (from the electrical circuit) and the car did start, but would not continue to run. DrBrown, you mentioned testing the resistance of the condenser with an analog voltmeter. As I've mentioned I am not electrically knowledgeable. Therefore where do I connect the leads on the condenser? One on the ground connector and the other where it fastens to the distributor? If the condenser is bad I will purchase a 33mfd magneto condenser from Hunt's. Thanks, Ray
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| carcrazy | -- 06-12-2024 @ 4:50 PM |
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If this were my car and I wanted it to run reliably, this is what I would do: Use a Coil Adapter Kit P.N. 78-12035K (for 1937-41 Ford V-8's) from Van Pelt Sales. This kit includes the condenser and the coil wire. Use an Internally Resisted Coil from 5th Avenue P.N. 954156C. This is a 6 volt coil with an internal resistor so no external resistor is required. Note that this is not the cheapest coil available. My experience with $20 to $30 coils has been dismal, when you only have to buy 1 coil at $80 it seems like a bargain! Since your electrical system is 6V positive ground, connect the + terminal of your coil to the distributor. The - terminal of your coil will be connected directly to your ignition switch without any resistor. This message was edited by carcrazy on 6-12-24 @ 8:06 PM
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| Dream38v8 | -- 06-14-2024 @ 7:56 AM |
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Carcarzy, as you read this you will understand why your solution maybe good but, why I will not implement it. After ready these posts I started thinking how I connected the condenser. I grounded the condenser, but did not connect it to the coil. After correcting this stupid mistake the car still would not start. I tested the voltage to the coil with the ignition on (1.59V). Next I tested the coil wire voltage not connected to the coil (6+V). I've ordered a new ignition resistor. Do I also need a new coil? What about the ignition switch? Thanks, Ray
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| carcrazy | -- 06-14-2024 @ 8:17 AM |
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Are you using an original 1938 Ford coil? If so, you will have to use an external ignition resistor. If you are using an aftermarket tubular coil with an internal resistor, you will not need an external resistor.
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| Dream38v8 | -- 06-14-2024 @ 4:31 PM |
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I'm running a Skip Haney coil since mid 2016. Ignition resistor ordered today. Ray
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| 40 Coupe | -- 06-15-2024 @ 4:56 AM |
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You can measure the resistance of the resistors with your meter should be about 0.5 ohm. Having good clean and tight electrical connections is important. Remove any corrosion on the electrical terminals, screws nuts and lock washers It would be good to take the ignition switch apart and clean the contacts and reassemble. 1.5V at the coil is a bit low, 2. to 3. V is much better. When in service the resistor gets extremely HOT make sure it is mounted clear of any combustibles. The original Ford mount is good. This message was edited by 40 Coupe on 6-15-24 @ 5:07 AM
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| Dream38v8 | -- 06-15-2024 @ 7:28 AM |
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40 Coupe, as I explained in an earlier post I am electrical illiterate. I do clean all contact as I work with them. You mention testing resistor resistance. Which resistors? With the ignition on or off? I've order a new ignition resistor from Midwest Early Ford which is scheduled to arrive Monday. Ray
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-15-2024 @ 8:02 AM |
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Dream, you have found your problem. Voltage at the coil is too low. You have excess resistance in the system, which is coming from multiple unwanted sources. To locate those sources for correction, measure voltage at every juncture from battery to coil. Each reading will tell the story. As you have cleaned and tightened all connections, my guess would be the ignition switch itself. Your purchase of a new resistor may help, or may not, I much prefer the original Ford resistors to anything found on today’s marketplace. Alan
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| Dream38v8 | -- 06-21-2024 @ 5:25 AM |
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Alan, I replaced the resistor and the car still wouldn't start. Next I jumped the battery directly to the coil. The car started rough, but smoothed out in a few. After the car started I removed the jumper wire. The car continued to run. The car ran for over five minutes. Next I removed the coil for a fellow V8 member to test. The coil is good. So now I am probably down to the ignition switch. I plan to jump the ignition switch. If the car starts I located the problem. What should I know about removing the switch and cleaning it? Thanks to everyone on the Forum for guidance and assistance. Ray
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-21-2024 @ 10:24 PM |
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Ray, Have you actually tested voltage at each juncture? I wouldn't dismantle or replace anything on guesswork before testing shows a fault. Your battery voltage across the terminals will be your starting point, and you should expect a very small voltage drop down the line, almost not measurable. The first point to measure is at your solenoid, then at the ignition switch. If your ignition switch drops voltage say, ½ volt, clean it or replace it. Your inline resistor is needed to protect the coil, and will drop about 2 volts. You need over 3 volts at the coil to start easily and run smoothly. I'd try Third Gen for a replacement ignition switch if yours tests bad. A very easy temporary fix, even easier than your jumper wire, is to release the starter and hope the engine kicks for you. This may do it, but may also require several tries to kick, and of course requires a good fuel charge and maybe half a choke if cold. The point here is to remove the starter's electrical draw from the equation to allow that voltage use for the ignition only. There are more fixes to the problem, but one thing at a time here, if this doesn't work for you, come on back and learn how your jumper wire can help you or if used continuously can hurt you. Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 6-21-24 @ 10:26 PM
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| Dream38v8 | -- 06-30-2024 @ 6:57 AM |
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I haven't touched the car since my last update. Got back at it yesterday. Here's the latest: The voltage drop across the battery is 6.2V (without the charger connected). I keep the battery on a trickle charger when I will not be using the car for a week or more. After installing the tested coil and condenser the car would not start. I jumped the solenoid to the coil. The car started. I went for a 15 mile test drive. AOK. When I turned the ignition off the car continued to run. Not a good work around or solution. The jumper has been removed. I let the car sit about an hour. It started without the solenoid jumper. Next the car sat overnight and went back this morning. The car started, but took a few cranks to actually fire and run (no jumper). I was using the choke as always. Ever since I owned the car it never started on first crank. It’s always taken a few cranks and playing with the choke to get it going. I let the car sit for about an hour. Went back out and it started right away (battery charger was not connected). Voltage at the coil is 3.2V. It seems the car is back to where is was prior to the starting issue. Here’s what I’ve done since the issue started: 1) Installed new ignition resistor 2) Installed to H10 plugs 3) Installed different distributor with new points 4) Had coil and condenser tested (OK) 5) Cleaned every connection I’ve worked with 6) Tighten a loose connection on the solenoid The car is also running a little rich. I will readjust the it later today. Thank you to everyone on the forum. You all continue to amaze me with the deep knowledge of our beloved Ford V8. Ray
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| carcrazy | -- 06-30-2024 @ 8:13 AM |
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Hi Ray, Glad to hear that you have gotten your '38 to start and run reliably. Summer is now here so it is time to take your Flathead out and enjoy driving it. Be sure to bring EFV8 Club membership information with you. It is in driving our old Fords that we can generate enthusiasm within our communities for these often times forgotten beauties.
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