| Ron Schram | -- 10-13-2023 @ 12:02 PM |
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We are trying to obtain information on the the manufacture and ordering of our 1941, Super Deluxe, 4 Door, Code 11A-73B, Serial number 7E111367. This car has 17,000 original miles, original Alkyd Canadian Military Specification paint, Heater delete, heavy duty springs and was a Royal Canadian Air Force Staff car, probably provided through Lend Lease. The Serial Number would seem to indicate American Manufacture slated for export.
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| ford38v8 | -- 10-13-2023 @ 7:20 PM |
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That’s something to be proud of! Very good looking car. I’m sure you know more than I do about the correctness, but I’m surprised at the fact that It has all the brightwork that an American Staff Car would not. How solid is your information on it’s history? Alan
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-14-2023 @ 10:05 AM |
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The Canadian Ford Staff cars came from two manufacturing sources. The ones made by Ford of Canada were built to British Staff Car standards and were painted Olive Drab, were right hand drive, had slit head lights and tail lamps, some had leather upholstery, had no brightwork as well as the order requirements of our car. The British Commonwealth Air Training Plan was created to begin training aircrew in 1941 as an emergency program. Since this equipment was only going to be used in Canada and since war production was already maximized, it was decided to purchased vehicles made in Canada and from US production. Most RCAF vehicles serving in Canada were painted with special Alkyd Blue paint, ordered without heaters, with heavy duty springs, had cigar lighters and had a Identification tag riveted beside the Voltage regulator. Canadian made cars were Standard or Deluxe and US made were Super Deluxe.
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-14-2023 @ 10:33 AM |
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An Interesting Footnote: In 1941 DeHaviland of Canada began aircraft production in Ontario. The first 200 Tiger Moth biplanes were ordered by the US Army Air Corps. After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Air Corps gave those airplanes to the RCAF when assembled and the Air Corps then made a deal for Canada to train several thousand US Aircrew at our British Commonwealth Air Training Plan bases. Many of the 136,000 aircrew trained here were Americans. We had a dual serial numbered Tiger Moth here. Early planes and vehicles were delivered to Canada under Lend Lease set up by President Roosevelt. Later equipment was produced in Canada under license from North American Aviation, Lockheed etc. We are trying to source the manufacture and shipping information on our particular car.
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| ford38v8 | -- 10-14-2023 @ 8:47 PM |
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Ron, this is an example of the best benefit of being here on this website, where even those who ask questions have invaluable knowledge to share with others! Thank you for that education! Alan
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-16-2023 @ 9:20 AM |
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Hi Allan, Thanks for the kind words! It is a sharing process. Any suggestions on how we might obtain the information we are seeking? Ron
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| ford38v8 | -- 10-16-2023 @ 10:28 AM |
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Ron, there are no records that I know of for original Stateside purchases, but you might get lucky and find something by way of the Freedom of Information Act, going back to the Lend-Lease period. Other than that, an educated guess of the origin being the Dearborn Assembly plant, or the Rouge. Alan
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| 42wagon | -- 10-16-2023 @ 2:24 PM |
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The serial number you have given does not appear to be an engine assembled at the Rouge engine plant. If a V8 the number should be 18- 5896295 or higher. If a 6 cylinder engine it would start with 1GA-1 or higher. If that is the serial number and not some sort of body number it is probably manufactured in Canada
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-17-2023 @ 5:35 PM |
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The highly rated appraisal firm we hired, believed that this Serial 7E111367 indicated US production and the 7 was a Staff Car and the E signified Export. Is it possible that Ford was required by the Government to run separate Serial Number ranges for Lend Lease vehicles? That number is clearly stamped into the Firewall, above the Voltage Regulator. An 1941 Ford RCAF Staff car, Standard model that has been verified to have been manufactured by Ford of Canada has the Serial number 2A232, stamped in the same location as our car.
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-17-2023 @ 5:50 PM |
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I made a typing error and put too many 1's in the Serial. It is 7E11367.
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-17-2023 @ 5:52 PM |
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Also visible are the four rivet holes where the ID tag removed prior to sale was located. Both cars have these identical holes.
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-17-2023 @ 6:07 PM |
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The previous photograph clearly shows the rivet holes where the RCAF ID tag was removed prior to sale. All Staff cars examined have the identical rivet holes present
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| 42wagon | -- 10-18-2023 @ 2:07 PM |
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Ron Okay the number you have there is some sort of contract number for the vehicle. It is not however the serial number. All engines where numbered sequentially when they were assembled at the Dearborn engine plant. The serial number would have been stamped on the top of the transmission. This started with 18-1 in 1932. When the engine was installed in a frame the number was transferred to the left frame rail between the radiator and cowl. It is believed that Canadian engines were assembled at the Canadian engine plant and therefore would not have numbers in the US serial number system. If that is true you should be able to tell by the engine serial number if the car was assembled in the USA or Canada.
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-19-2023 @ 8:13 AM |
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Our 1942 1/2 ton, manufactured by Ford of Canada, has the engine number on top of the bell housing and on a small aluminum plaque attached to the firewall directly below the Voltage Regulator. This is a matching numbers, survivor as well, with 75,000 miles, original paint etc. Here are a few more pictures. I will check our car in the locations you describe later today. Thanks, Ron
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-19-2023 @ 1:45 PM |
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Hi, I thoroughly checked the top both frame rails under the hood and there are no numbers applied or stamped. Ron
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| 3w2 | -- 10-20-2023 @ 9:01 AM |
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The car in question was without a reasonable doubt a product of Ford of Canada given the stamped number on the firewall which was a period practice of Ford of Canada and not of Ford U.S.. Further period Canadian-built vehicles did not have patent plates on their firewalls even though the holes for such a plate were there. The numbers on the period patent plates were all for U.S. patents and had no relevance (at that time) in Canada. What is left of the archives of Ford of Canada is located at the University of Windsor and perhaps some information on those special staff cars survives, although it is likely a long shot. This message was edited by 3w2 on 10-20-23 @ 9:03 AM
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-20-2023 @ 4:57 PM |
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Thanks for your assessment and help. We will check the Windsor Archives. Ron
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-31-2023 @ 10:56 AM |
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We have an update which may be of interest to owners of Ford of Canada vehicles. We contacted the Windsor University Archive Section as suggested. They informed us that the Ford Motor Company Records section in Dearborn suffered a fire and production records for most of the Ford of Canada Vehicles was lost. Information for our 1941 was part of the destroyed material. Ford in Dearborn then sent all remaining information, records and Patent Documents to the University of Windsor. They still have that information and a listing was forwarded to us. Mostly consisted of hundreds of Patents for Ford Vehicles that were developed by Ford Of Canada. Persons doing research are welcome to contact them for copies of this information.
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| Ron Schram | -- 10-31-2023 @ 11:03 AM |
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Our car has been verified as an RCAF Staff Car so this morning we donated this wonderful old survivor to Historic Aviation Foundation here in Wetaskiwin and the car will be placed in a Canadian Air Museum. Since a friend acquired our 1942, 1/2 ton, this marks the first time since the seventies that we don't have a vehicle from the forties. Turning of a page, but if you're as blessed as we are, you get to keep turning pages!
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| 3w2 | -- 10-31-2023 @ 6:38 PM |
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Wow, whomever you spoke to at the University of Windsor is incredibly misinformed. Ford of Canada had its own archives located in the top floor of the Ford of Canada headquarters in Oakville up until early this century when that building was replaced with a new building. It was this event that triggered the gifting of those archives to the University. The two fires in Dearborn, first at the Rotunda in 1962 and at the Henry Ford in 1970 preceded that gifting to the University by several decades and had nothing to do with those fires in the U.S.. How do I know that? I had the privilege of being the Vice-President, Treasurer of Ford of Canada in the 1980s and I was a frequent visitor to the archives where Herm Smith (RIP), former President of the Antique Automobile Club of America, was curator.
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| Ron Schram | -- 11-01-2023 @ 7:37 AM |
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Here is a copy of the note sent along with a listing of existing records. There seems to be some difference of opinion. We reviewed the Spreadsheet the University of Windsor attached. We found this lady to be very helpful and seemed to be doing the best she could, within the limits of actual material still existing and will leave her name and position off this reply. Any misunderstanding of what she sent to us would be my fault. I'm sure you have a great deal of important insight gained during your time with Ford, and talking with you would be very interesting, but I am inclined to believe that if the records were still in existence we would have received the information we requested. Here is the text of the email we received: " Hi Ron, It was nice speaking with you today. What an interesting project! I have attached the spreadsheet version of the Ford of Canada collection finding aid. You will see that there are letters patent, account ledgers, monthly statement ledgers, machine tools inventory and other material, but nothing about production. We often have inquiries such as yours about a specific make or model from a specific year. It is always disappointing to report that we simply do not have the information. In reply, we always refer to the fire that destroyed many of the old documents and point out that the remaining Canadian archives were given to Dearborn afterward. The Ford of Canada collection has since been returned Canada and is housed at the University of Windsor, without production information. What happened to it? Was it lost in the fire? Was it lost in transit? Was it ever a part of this collection? These are questions we will never be able to answer. Thank you for your inquiry and thank you for the work you do keeping the past alive for future generations. "
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