| bradshari@aol.com | -- 02-27-2023 @ 12:45 PM |
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Hi. Long story. Ruined passenger axle pulling hub. Opened differential by unbolting the axle tubes , removed axles through drivers side. New passenger axle,seals,bearings. Slid axles and drivers tube back in. I have the spacer gaskets . BUT my mechanic friend says even with all the gasket shims on the passenger side /axle tube of the differential their is too much play. I can rotate the wheels/drums about an inch total clockwise and counterclockwise. He says I must need a new pinion and ring gear. The differential didn’t clunk or anything before we tore it apart. If I do need a new pinion do I have to unbolt the drive shaft tube up front at the transmission? Thank you.
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| pauls39coupe | -- 02-28-2023 @ 12:12 PM |
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Wild guess here, but did you put the differential gears and cross shaft back exactly as they came out? Are the bearings on the differential pressed on completely flush? Are the axle races flush in the housing? Are you sure the replacement axle was the correct one for your car? There are different lengths and different gear teeth. Most rear end we have seen take about one .010 shim on the passenger side to space the ring away from the pinion. There is a lot of trial and error setting up those old banjo rear ends. From what you describe it sound like something was not put back in place correctly when the differential was taken apart. Pull the assembly out and be sure the differential works properly. Turning one axle clockwise should cause the other to rotate counter clockwise.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 03-01-2023 @ 8:22 AM |
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Have to replace the gaskets with exactly the same thickness of gaskets removed since it is the gaskets that allow the proper carrier and ring to pinion mesh. It sounds as if you have too much gasket thickness.
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| bradshari@aol.com | -- 03-01-2023 @ 12:40 PM |
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Thank you for taking your time to help me. I will check the bearings etc. The axle is the right length and tooth number. If I need a new pinion and ring gear do I need to disconnect the drive shaft up front at the transmission? I hope not, I just got the floor boards and floor matt and seat nicely back in from having the transmission rebuilt
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| ford38v8 | -- 03-01-2023 @ 6:00 PM |
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Interesting idea. Like a brain surgeon operating on a football player without removing his helmet. Let us know how that turns out. Alan
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| bradshari@aol.com | -- 03-01-2023 @ 8:06 PM |
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I didn’t plan on doing anything to my back differential since it was running strong and smooth. Once my mechanic friend smashed the passenger axle trying to pull the hub I had no choice. The fix plan was to just replace the axle and all bearings and seals and put it back together and not get into replacing the pinion and ring gear. As I explained earlier when we put it back together trying different shims there is a lot of play in it . When I rotate a wheel it moves about 2 inches until the other side engages and starts to rotate. Maybe it was this sloppy before we took it apart and I didn’t know it. If anyone knows of an experienced differential mechanic near Rochester New York I sure would pay to have my diff rebuilt properly. Thanks for help. Brad.
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| pauls39coupe | -- 03-01-2023 @ 8:20 PM |
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Yes you will need to remove the torque tube, split the drive shaft from the pinion, press the old pinion out , setup the bearing pre-load on the pinion , then reinstall the pinion, shim both axle bells and a bunch of other stuff. If you have not done this before find someone who has. It takes a day if you know what you are doing! Setting the preload on the pinion takes an inch pound wrench and an adapter or the special KR Wilson wrench. Shimming the axle bells is a trial and error process first to set the bearing preload on the differential, then to set the distance between the ring gear and the pinion. When something goes wrong I always go back to the last thing that was done. If the ring and pinion were OK before you changed the axle why would they be different now? Go back and check everything in the differential. If you only had one axle bell off the shims on the other side are probably OK. If you have the old shims you took out , measure them and replace them with the same size. You don' t need the whole shim pack on the passenger side if that is what you have done. Normally we see .009 or .010 on the passenger side to get the right clearance. Once again I am not there so this is just a WAG. Paul
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| bradshari@aol.com | -- 03-10-2023 @ 9:15 PM |
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Thank you everybody for your time and advice . My mechanic friend and I are in way over our heads. Does anyone know anyone in the Rochester NY area that would be willing to take on this project. Of course I will pay for the travel time and work.
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| pauls39coupe | -- 03-11-2023 @ 7:53 AM |
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Back to square one. If everything is correct in the differential and the bearings and races are fully seated, you will see two to 5 inches of movement at the edge of the wheel before the other tire turns in the opposite direction. This is normal. If the wheels turn in the same direction you have too much pre-load on the differential carrier bearings and need to add more shims. If you have the old shims measure them and replace them as they were removed. If not I would try a .010 shim on each side and test it again. Let us know how it turned out.
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| rotorwrench | -- 03-11-2023 @ 8:08 AM |
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The old banjo rear axles can be a steep learning curve for folks more in tune with modern stuff. Taking apart the housing should not affect the ring & pinion as long as the same gasket thickness is used at reassembly. The gear backlash for the ring and pinion are checked separately from the axle through one of the plugs on the housing since the two axles have their own mesh with the spider gears and associated gear backlash there would make it seam to have a lot of backlash. The condition and tooth count should match the approximate gear tooth condition of the removed parts. Worn axle gear ends and spider gears can give more backlash than new parts. There were two different spider gear sets used in the banjo era so a person has to make sure they match. In the 1937 year range, I believe the pinions had 10-splines where the later pinions have 6-splines. Replacing the ring and pinion would require a match of the splines to the driveshaft inside the torque tube. Don't replace those parts unless they are unserviceable in some way. Overhaul of the rear axle requires removal of the drive system from under the car. This is the best way to do full overhaul of the system. It allows inspection of the front u-joint and the drive shaft as well as the rear axle assembly. It likely sounds more difficult than it really is. Find yourself a reproduction of the KR Wilson rear hub puller for future back brake and wheel bearing service. It will make your life a lot easier. This message was edited by rotorwrench on 3-11-23 @ 8:11 AM
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| bradshari@aol.com | -- 03-11-2023 @ 9:07 AM |
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Thank you very much. Knowing that there can be 2 to 5 inches of rotation on one side before the other side moves in the opposite direction really helps me. I know that before we took it apart the “play” was about 3 inches at the most and I thought that was a lot and my mechanic friend said that much was due to worn gears. He is a relatively good mechanic but admits these banjo rear end are not his cup of tea. I remember when we took it apart one side had one very thin shim. I thought it was a gasket and I don’t think the other side even had a shim and I thought that was strange and maybe someone just forgot to put a gasket in.
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| bradshari@aol.com | -- 03-11-2023 @ 9:16 AM |
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Thank you for helping. I know look’s aren’t everything with gears but the pinion and ring gear due look good. And as I said I was not having any issues with the back end before. We will check the axle bearing work thank we did and go from there. Fingers crossed. I do appreciate the education from all of you??
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| pauls39coupe | -- 03-12-2023 @ 9:51 AM |
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Sounds like you are on the way to put the rear back together. You will often see what seems like a lot of play in the gears, that is normal and will not hurt a car being driven normally. Drag racing is another matter. Be sure to refill the housing with a good quality lube. I like Lucas oil products 80-90W , but there are other quality brands out there with an EP rateing Rotorwrench offers good advice on using the KR Wilson reproduction hub puller. They really save damage to the hub, drum, and axle ends. Paul This message was edited by pauls39coupe on 3-12-23 @ 2:40 PM
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| Mike_Van | -- 03-13-2023 @ 6:39 PM |
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You can find some very good information on rebuilding banjo rear ends on Santa Anita Model A Club website under Tom Endy tech articles. Most of the info applies to later axles as well, as I found when rebuilding my 34 axle.
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