| rawlir | -- 03-17-2022 @ 7:40 PM |
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Is installing electric fuel pumps acceptable for Dearborn concourse judging?
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| Kens 36 | -- 03-18-2022 @ 7:08 AM |
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Per the Early Ford V-8 Club's judging manual: Effective for National Meets in 2017 forward, there will be no deduction for electric fuel pumps as long as they are neatly installed near the fuel tank and are not the primary means for providing fuel to the engine, i.e., the mechanical fuel pump must not be disabled. Ken
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| kubes40 | -- 03-18-2022 @ 1:28 PM |
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This continues to baffle me. So, if an incorrect electric pump is installed and no point deduction is given, then an incorrect mechanical pump must surely be okay and no deduction given for that either. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| Kens 36 | -- 03-19-2022 @ 6:57 AM |
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No, Michael. That is not the case. The Judging Standards Committee made the decision to allow auxiliary fuel pumps within the guidelines given. They did not change the rules regarding correct mechanical fuel pumps. All judges are expected to follow the rules as prescribed by the JSC. Ken
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| kubes40 | -- 03-19-2022 @ 9:34 AM |
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Perhaps you might expound to exactly how this rule change came about. Seems to me, if a guy has the desire, he can get the car to start and run just fine on the stock pump. I have never found the need for an electric pump. Changing the rules to accommodate those that either don't know how to repair their vehicle properly or simply don't want to expend the energy seems counter-intuitive. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| Kens 36 | -- 03-19-2022 @ 1:40 PM |
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Mike, Not being a member of the JSC, I was not present for the JSC deliberations on this matter, but once they made the decision, it became part of the judging rules. The intent of my first response was to answer the original posters questions with the correct facts as they exist. Judges at Early Ford V-8 Club meets do not make the rules; this has been the responsibility of the JSC since the judging system used today originated over 40 years ago. Judges are then responsible to apply the rules to the vehicle being judged. Whether they agree with a particular rule is immaterial. They owe it to the member to apply the rules as they are written and made available to members. Complaining about a rule that you don't personally like in a forum such as this or on the Fordbarn is not productive. Any Early Ford V-8 Club member can reach out to the JSC if they have suggestions on the rules or the judging system. I'm sure that the gentleman who was then the JSC Chairman would be happy to discuss this matter with you and the rationale for the change. By the way, the JSC is a volunteer organization and is always open to new members with new ideas. Ken
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| kubes40 | -- 03-19-2022 @ 3:52 PM |
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I wasn't complaining. I was searching for an explanation within the forum, a place I was under the impression was precisely for seeking information. Perhaps this thread would be productive if an explanation was offered as to why the rules were changed. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| len47merc | -- 03-20-2022 @ 6:22 AM |
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Ken, although I do not have the rules in front of me, and am only recalling this from my 66 year-old memory, and also in support of Mike's related comments - the rule I recall was written to allow for the ADDITION of an electric fuel pump but NOT as a substitution and/or replacement of the stock, original, mechanical pump. Basically, and again from recall, it was allowed as a safety add as a backup for those that tour their cars to meets, long drives, etc. If a car subjected to judging does not have a functioning mechanical fuel pump or no original, stock fuel pump at all it will receive applicable points deductions. An additional intent, again as I recall, was also to ensure the addition of the electric pump would be done so to ensure it being mounted inconspicuously and virtually out of sight, almost requiring the use of a mirror to see it from under the vehicle. I have seen installations done this well (including the switch being hidden under the dash) but never felt the need to go there myself. Kind of anal retentive personally on originality, Ford engineering and confidence in properly maintained equipment. I share Mike's perspective completely and have never found the need for an electric fuel pump in an all original, stock, properly restored and maintained fuel delivery system. Steve
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| 1934 Ford | -- 03-20-2022 @ 9:38 AM |
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I too agree there is no need for electric fuel pumps on Early Ford V8's. 2022 marks 50 years for me with Early Ford V8's. Several 34's, a 35, a 40 a 41. With 42 National tours and never felt the need for an electric fuel pump on a Early Ford V8. Same applies to 12 Volt electrical systems. 1934 Ford's since 1972
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| Big Red 51 | -- 03-21-2022 @ 7:18 AM |
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Folks, I have been driving, on highways, "Early Fords" for 76 years starting with a '41 Lincoln and currently a 1953 Victoria. I have never owned or used a trailer, I drive to meets from the East Coast. I happily put an electric fuel pump on my multiple Emeritus '53 in 2018 for strictly safety reasons because I drive the modern Interstates for the same reason I use quality radial tires. The EAB engine with OD likes to cruise in the high 60's. If you have ever been boxed in the center or inside lane with 4 eighteen- wheelers surrounding you and your coil or condenser fails from heat problems, you will be happy you have a pump to assist you to get to safety. Yes even Eichlen can fail now-days too. Nuff said. Don
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| kubes40 | -- 03-21-2022 @ 9:36 AM |
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BigRed, I do understand your sentiments. However, I do not understand the changing of the rules to allow such on the concourse without a due deduction. I'm still hoping Ken Bounds will weigh in here with the reasoning behind this change. I'd like to believe, he, being the chief judge, would be able to explain this. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| kirkstad | -- 03-21-2022 @ 1:13 PM |
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I'm not sure, but I think electric fuel pumps are allowed due to the new fuels having so much alcohol content. Because of the alcohol the flat heads tend to vapor lock more and the electric pumps help over come this, normally the car should be able to run with the stock pump otherwise. Many cars on the concourse are driven there and attend tours afterwards and not always come on trailers. I think it's a safety issue like seat belts and turn signals. I don't need an electric pump on my 36,but I have been stopped on the side of the road for other reasons, no fun with modern iron flying by at 65-70 mph.
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| kubes40 | -- 03-21-2022 @ 2:32 PM |
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Kirkstad, The central issue remains... many of us get our cars to perform flawlessly w/o electric pumps. So, we all know this is quite possible. Want an electric pump for peace of mind? Fine. No issue. Need an electric pump because the vehicle is not properly sorted? Fine. No issue. The issue? Being on a point judged concourse and expecting the same points as the guy that went the proverbial extra mile to get his vehicle to operate as it was built. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| Jacques1960 | -- 03-22-2022 @ 7:02 AM |
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Very interested in the outcome of this discussion as both my 36 Phaeton and 38 Wagon arrived here with electric “priming” pumps installed by others. After a test in which one of the floats was bent due to over pressure , I’m inclined to fall into Kubes’ camp but very interested in both sides of the debate. Thank you.
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| Carcheologist | -- 03-22-2022 @ 9:19 AM |
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I too am in the "NO ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP" camp. Hundreds of thousands of our beloved Fords along with many other brands of cars ran for decades WITHOUT electric fuel pumps. Makes you wonder how they ever got along without them! Of course it's a matter of preference, but I agree with Kube and a few others here...if the fuel pump is assembled with a quality rebuild kit, it will function perfectly as intended without the aid of an electric pump. If you have proper fuel flow from the tank to the pump (no rust or trash blocking the fuel line), there should be no issues and the stock pump will do its job as designed.
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| nelsb01 | -- 03-22-2022 @ 12:01 PM |
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If you are a member of the V-8 Club...........and I hope you are, you must have missed the announcement about electric fuel pumps in the 2017 issues of the V-8 TIMES. If you look at this link https://www.earlyfordv8.org/images/userImages/2017%20JUDGING%20INSTRUCTIONS.pdf you will see on page 4 that the notice about electric fuel pumps was added to the Judging Rules in March of 2017. While I agree with those that drive their Ford Mercury and Lincoln vehicles as built, none the less, it was brought before the Judging Standards Committee and they passed it. This message was edited by nelsb01 on 3-22-22 @ 12:02 PM
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| kubes40 | -- 03-22-2022 @ 3:29 PM |
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I did not miss the ruling back in 2017. What I did miss and continue to miss is an explanation as to why the rules were changed. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 03-23-2022 @ 8:09 AM |
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If you trailer your car from show to show and only take it out of the trailer on judging day, you can probably get away with a stock pump. If you drive several hours, especially in bumper to bumper traffic you will experience vapor lock. If you want to use your car on a hot summer day and constantly stop and go, again, you will experience vapor lock. Ethanol fuel boiling point is over 50 degrees higher than gasoline, as the temperature goes up the more the gas will turn to vapor, hence the problem. You do not have to look hard to find an article about vapor lock and flathead Ford's. I have seen all sorts of fixes such as close pins on the fuel line, "cool cans", carb spacer blocks and wet rags and ice all over the engine. With todays traffic it's not unusual. I live on Long Island and it would be impossible to try to drive onto the mainland at any time of day or night without stopped traffic. A couple of years ago, before Covid there was a local car show and the line for the registration was rather long, well guess what, there were two Ford's that everyone had to drive around because they were stalled and the owners were stopping people asking for ice and cold water to cool down their engines. It's very simple, if you want to put some miles on your car and enjoy it, install an electric pump for piece of mind. Ask yourself this, would the V-8 Club allow electric fuel pumps if it wasn't a problem.
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| kubes40 | -- 03-23-2022 @ 9:01 AM |
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Woodie wagon, I'm not certain what the point was of your post. Apparently, your car as well as some others you'd witnessed, can't handle the traffic without vapor lock. Do you believe that because of them, that no others can handle the traffic? Also, your opinion of why the rule was changed is just that, your opinion. For that, thanks. But again, I'm patiently awaiting the answer from someone in the "know". I would guess that would be someone in the judging committee or perhaps the Chief Judge. And, just to be clear, this subject has zero to do with your car or anyone else's that is not sorted properly. This has only to do with concourse judging. You are very welcome to apply a "Band-Aid" on your car. More power to you. Enjoy! There are those among us that insist upon our cars being as close to concourse correct as we are able to achieve. This rule change is in direct conflict with the GENERAL POLICY of judging. Somehow, someway, this policy, the basic principle of our concourse, was circumvented. I simply would like to know why that was. Following is the second paragraph of the club's rules. Seems rather contradictory to me. GENERAL POLICY The broad object of EFV8CA restoration insofar as judging is concerned is to duplicate in every detail the vehicle as it left the factory assembly line and/or the Ford dealer showroom floor. Accessories or options shown in the sales catalog or manufacturer’s change letters are acceptable. The term owner includes his representative, driver or the entrant; however, the actual owner must present vehicle registration and evidence of good standing in the EFV8CA to have his vehicle enter the Concourse. Throughout the judging process, the Early Ford V-8 Club and its judging system do not determine which parts of a vehicle are of genuine Ford manufacture or which parts are reproductions. The vehicle is judged strictly on its appearance of authenticity. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| Kens 36 | -- 03-23-2022 @ 12:46 PM |
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As often happens, this thread has wandered off from the original question. Please forgive this lengthy response. The original poster asked a question about the Early Ford V-8 Club of America (EFV8CA) judging policy regarding backup electric fuel pumps. He was given a concise answer directly from the EFV8CA judging manual in the following post. I agree with Mike that the discussion of the perceptions of the pros and cons of the electric fuel pump issue should be a separate thread. Mike, you keep asking me to chime in, but I thought I had answered your questions, and the OP's, about the electric fuel pump rule. I believed that I was clear in the answer I gave in post #6, but perhaps I was not. Yes, I am the National Chief Judge of the EFV8CA. In that position, I am an ex-officio member of the Judging Standards Committee (JSC). However, I was not the Chief Judge nor was I on the JSC back in 2016 when the decision regarding electric fuel pumps was made. As I stated in that response, you are free to reach out to the then Chairman of the JSC if you want the reasoning behind the rule change. His name is listed on the back inside cover of each V-8 Times magazine and his contact information is on the Technical Advisors page, where yours appears. I’m sure you know him. I do not believe that he is a poster on these forums. He has recently retired from the JSC Chair position; the new Chairman is shown on the EFV8CA website. As National Chief Judge, I have duties and responsibilities set out in writing by the EFV8CA. Among them are: Handles all disputes arising at National Meets requiring interpretation of Judging Standards policy; ensures accuracy, uniformity and fairness of judging process used at National Meets; interprets and responds to all JSC decisions and policies but does not set or establish policy; as necessary, ensures enforcement of Judging Standards as established by the JSC. At a meet I hope to assure members that all of the judging standards are applied fairly by every judge. Not every member agrees with every point deduction (or non-deduction) on the Concourse. But the judges do not have discretion to pick and choose which provisions they will or will not comply with. If you want me to explain why the JSC promulgated that rule, then you are asking the wrong person. My duties are to ensure that the rules are carried out, not to explain or justify the reasons for them. I identified the person who can explain on March 19.
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| kubes40 | -- 03-23-2022 @ 1:02 PM |
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Thanks Ken. I will reach out to the person you'd advised and will report back at a future date in regard to the reasoning behind changing the club's basis concourse judging principles. If I am understanding correctly, this would be John McBurney. Correct? If so, there is no email address listed. Perhaps you could provide that? Thank you. As a side note of sorts...I will NOT, in this forum discuss how judges on the concourse "go by the rules". Mike "Kube" Kubarth This message was edited by kubes40 on 3-23-22 @ 1:06 PM
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| Kens 36 | -- 03-23-2022 @ 2:17 PM |
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John McBurney was just appointed to the JSC Chairman position last week. His predecessor, listed in the V-8 Times, was Chair when the decision was made. Ken
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| wmsteed | -- 03-26-2022 @ 11:29 AM |
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Having just finished reading through the three pages of comments pertaining to Electric Fuel Pumps, it became very apparent that the majority of the comments were not written by people that had actually driven an Early V8 Ford on a hot summer day in the mountains and/or heavy traffic. I was introduced to flat-head Ford ownership in 1952 when I bought my '36 coupe, prior to this purchase, I had owned several Chevrolet' that were not prone to vapor lock and/or fuel pump failure.. I experienced my first Ford fuel pump failure in the middle of the night on a very rural highway between Idaho Falls and Salt Lake City. Not a happy event. After walking many miles to the nearest small town I was finally able to obtain a fuel pump for a Newhalland baler that had a Wisconsin V-4 engine. In a short period of time I purchased an electric fuel pump to use as an aux pump to eliminate vapor lock, etc. A couple years went bye with no problems so the pump was sitting in it's original carton in the trunk. Two years later i had moved to Vegas, driving from Vegas to LA in the middle of the night to avoid the heat the fuel pump quit. Fortunately I had a new electric pump in the trunk, a temporary install of the electric pump got me to San Bernardino, I purchased a new pump. Within a few days of returning to Vegas I installed the electric pump close to the tank with a toggle switch under the dash to control the pump. I have driven my '36 Ford over 95,K miles during the many years I have own it, it has never failed me. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe
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| kubes40 | -- 03-26-2022 @ 11:38 AM |
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Bill, This is not a discussion about the possible necessity of an electric pump. It is a discussion as to why the pump is now allowed on the concourse (point judged vehicles) without receiving a deduction. The concourse was designed to hold vehicles for judging according to how the vehicle was authentically built. So, let's say I'm unable to get the generator to charge on my car. I install an alternator. Ya think there should be a point deduction for that? Simply because I do not have the necessary knowledge to get my (correct) charging system to operate properly? Rules like this electric pump are in my opinion made to allow folks that could not otherwise "win" to well, "win". Never quite understood changing any rule simply because a guy doesn't like the game or can't win as the rules stand. I was taught to either become better at the "game" or change sports. I am happy for you in that you'd found a way to make your car more dependable. To make the leap that Fords that are driven require these pumps? How did you make that leap? Mike "Kube" Kubarth This message was edited by kubes40 on 3-26-22 @ 12:30 PM
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| kubes40 | -- 03-26-2022 @ 12:34 PM |
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Hey Don (bigred51), I was wondering how an electric pump helps you when you are boxed in by eighteen wheelers and your condenser fails? Enlighten me please... how exactly does more fuel delivery repair a defective condenser? Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| Jacques1960 | -- 03-27-2022 @ 5:14 AM |
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Deep breath, exhale. Thank you gentlemen, all.
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| wmsteed | -- 03-27-2022 @ 2:03 PM |
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As noted in the above; the original question was-- " Is installing electric fuel pumps acceptable for Dearborn Concourse judging?" Kens 36 reply; "Per the Early Ford V-8 Club's judging manual:" Effective for National Meets in 2017 forward, there will no deductions for electric fuel pumps as long as they are neatly installed near the fuel tank and are not the primary means for providing fuel to the engine, i.e., the mechanical fuel pump must not be disabled. My response to the question was consistent with Ken's reply. I, as many other people have found out, the original Ford fuel pump and it's location is very prone to failure. I stated my experience's on two occasions with the with the Ford fuel pumps quitting at difficult times under difficult conditions, the first time resulting in having to walk/jog over twenty miles to secure a replacement pump I like my cars to be reliable and safe. I also like the repairs/ modifications I do to vehicles to be neat and as clean as possible. I don't like anything on the dash that does not belong there, that includes switches etc Reading the directions that come with an electric pump you will find that it is recommended that the pump be placed as close to the tank as possible, electric pumps push better than they pull. If the mechanical pump has only failed do to a valving problem, and/or the diaphram has not failed, which will result in pumping raw fuel into the engine, the average electric pump will pump through the manual pump.. Bill 36 5 win delx cpe This message was edited by wmsteed on 3-28-22 @ 8:07 AM
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| kubes40 | -- 03-27-2022 @ 3:16 PM |
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I give up. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| MG | -- 03-27-2022 @ 5:25 PM |
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Kubarth said "I give up" > This is a good thing...
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