| BRL | -- 11-27-2021 @ 7:52 AM |
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Hi: As a new owner of a 1937 Phaeton (type 78-750) I decided to change the oil last night since I dont know the history of its oil changing. This car does not have the oil filter option. I have the glove box reference book for this car and it says it takes 5 quarts of oil. From my looking around on the net, I see people say this is an error and it should take 4 quarts, not 5 quarts. So I decide I will just measure what is in there since the dipstick reads exactly in the middle of the "safe driving range". I drain out the oil and I measure the volume as 3-3/8 quarts. I decide to fill it up with exactly 4 quarts (Lucas 10W-40 hot rod/classic) and now the dipstick reads about 1/2 inch above the "full" mark. I used a very accurate measuring cup for checking my quantities and I looked at the dipstick after getting the engine warmed up to operating range. Do I have a problem here? Should I drain out the 5/8 quart of oil that makes it go above the dipstick full mark? Regards, BRL
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 11-27-2021 @ 7:58 AM |
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HI do you have the 21 stud engine, ? 18 mm spart plug holes, you sure you have the correct dip stick ? measure it, mine is 13 7/8 to the hilt compare it to mine, it should take 5 quarts, without oil filter, I rechecked my original 1937 owners manual and it says 5 quarts let us know, 37Ragtopman ,Maine This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 11-27-21 @ 11:36 AM
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| TomO | -- 11-27-2021 @ 8:54 AM |
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Your sump should hold 5 quarts of oil. The 60 HP engine used 4 quarts of oil, but all other V-8 engines up to 1948 used 5 quarts. In 1949 Ford changed the quantity to 4 quarts. You may have the wrong dipstick. The correct dipstick will show just a little over full with 5 quarts. There should also be a leather seal at the dipstick stop. If it is missing, your dipstick will read about 1/4 to 1/2 quart high. Running with 4 quarts will make the engine run a little hotter as the oil is part of the cooling system of a gasoline engine. Tom
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| JayChicago | -- 11-27-2021 @ 9:01 AM |
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Deleted my post. I was composing while TomO was posting. His answer, his experience, is better. This message was edited by JayChicago on 11-27-21 @ 9:05 AM
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| 3w2 | -- 11-27-2021 @ 11:23 AM |
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The Ford instruction for an oil change was 4 1/2 quarts even though the capacity is 5 quarts as about a 1/2 quart is trapped in the engine block and won't drain out. It is important not to overfill the oil pan. But if you only put 4 quarts in, you are a 1/2 quart short and likely your dipstick will read 'Full' when you add the 1/2 quart.
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| Jacques1960 | -- 11-27-2021 @ 2:27 PM |
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Given the typical 1,000 mile oil change interval, I run 4.0-4.5 qts motor oil and MMO for the balance. May not do much good, but also does not appear to cause any harm.
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| BRL | -- 11-29-2021 @ 7:23 AM |
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Hi 37Ragtopman: I made some checks last night: my engine has 21 studs on each head...so I am pretty sure it is the 85hp engine. I measured the length of my dipstick and it is 13-7/8 inch from the end to the shoulder that stops at the dipstick tube...just like yours I guess. My oil is clean now and a little hard to read on the stick, but I re-check it and it still reads the same as the other day: about 1/2 inch over the "FULL" mark. Someone else mentioned that the dipstick should have a seal(leather or fabric?) at the shoulder stop but mine does not...does yours have this? I have also attached a photo. Regards, BRL
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| BRL | -- 11-29-2021 @ 7:33 AM |
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Hi Tom: I have verified I have the 85hp engine (21 studs on each head) and I have the same length dipstick as 37ragtopman but another check of the dipstick last night is the same: 1/2 inch over "FULL" with 4 qts of oil. Now, my dipstick does not have a seal on the stop as you mention and this should hold the dipstick a little higher out of the dipstick tube. Assuming I have the correct dipstick, do you know where I could buy this leather seal? If they are not readily available, do you know what the specs of the seal are?....possibly I can fabricate it if the dimensions do not require any unusual fabrication equipment. Regards, BRL
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| marko39 | -- 11-30-2021 @ 6:25 AM |
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I have a pack of furniture and cabinet pads with several different sizes. They are felt and the 1/2" dia. ones look about right. I am going to try one on my 39 stick..
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| TomO | -- 11-30-2021 @ 8:06 AM |
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The dipstick tube should measure 8 21/64" and the dipstick should measure 16 5/8" long, end to end. It would measure 13 3/4" to the hilt without the seal. The seal is about 1/8" thick and would make less than 1/2 quart difference in the level. The dilemma that you face is with too little oil your engine will run a few degrees warmer and you will lose the protection of having enough oil in the pan when you are driving fast and accelerate. With too much oil in the pan, the counter weights can cause the oil to froth reducing the efficiency of the oil pump or having the oil leak past the slinger seal when you are parked uphill. I do not know why your dipstick shows over full when you have 4 quarts of oil in the sump. Your oil pan has the same capacity as the one in my 40 Merc and my dipstick shows just over full when I add 5 quarts to an empty sump. Every Ford piece of literature that I have says that the oil pan has a 5 quart capacity and to fill it with 5 quarts when you change the oil. I suggest that you measure the dipstick tube and go with the specifications in the Owners manual. Tom
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| zeke3 | -- 12-01-2021 @ 11:06 AM |
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It is possible that there is a buildup of sludge in the oil pan sump that is contributing to the oil level of the engine. I have an oil pan, dipstick and tube out in the shop; I should check the calibration and report back later. Report: I have a rear sump oil pan, dipstick tube and dipstick from a 1937 style 21 stud engine. The oil pan was setup with a 3 degree power angle (nose up) and level side to side. Water was used for these measurements The oil dipstick tube measures 8.375" in length including the threads. When installed in the oil pan the tube measures 7 15/16" from the mounting boss to the end of the tube. The oil dipstick does not have the leather sealing washer and measures 11.75" in length from the metal washer to the full mark on the stick. The safe range is 1 13/32" in length. Results: With dipstick installed without any added spacer to simulate the leather sealing washer, 3 quarts of fluid filled the sump to the low mark on the dipstick. Four quarts of fluid raised the level to the mid range of the "Safe Driving" zone of the dipstick and 4 quarts and 23 oz. put the level to the full mark on the dipstick. Next, the dipstick was raised 0.125" to simulate the leather seal. The fluid level was raised to 5 quarts, which raised the fluid level in the pan above the full mark on the dipstick by 3/32", about half of the arrow that points at the full mark. Based on this test I conclude that 5 quarts is the correct capacity for a clean oil pan. This message was edited by zeke3 on 12-1-21 @ 4:58 PM
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| TomO | -- 12-02-2021 @ 7:34 AM |
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Zeke3, thank you for posting the results of your experiment. Hopefully it will calm down the debate over the quantity of oil required. Tom
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| BRL | -- 12-23-2021 @ 10:25 AM |
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Hi Guys: Here is an update on my situation...a little bit of mechanic drama here is in parentheses if you dont care to read it. So I purchased the correct dipstick tube for my car, p/n 48-6754-B. (The tube was threaded on the end but the crests were flattened so I decided to run a die on it...it did not measure to any standard size but was close to 1/2-20...so I ran a 1/2-20 repair die on it and it was pretty hard all the way but did clean up). I bought some 1/8 inch thick high temp felt from McMaster-Carr and made a dipstick seal (3/4 inch dia with a leather punch) and put it on the dipstick. I removed the old dipstick tube. (It would not unthread despite lots of PB Blaster and a few days soaking so I put a heat gun to the tube while protecting the tube adapter from the heat with a heat blanket. A little bit of heat freed it up and the tube popped out...it was not threaded and the tube adapter showed evidence of once being threaded but someone drilled it out so the tube could be pressed in with a bit of sealant.) I threaded in the new dipstick tube with a little bit of high temp black engine gasket sealant. (initially I could not install the new dipstick tube because the tube adapter was not threaded. Fortunately the hole size in the adapter was close to the hole size for a 1/2-20 helicoil insert. So I tapped it for a 1/2-20, 1 diameter (1/2 inch long) insert and installed the insert...very lucky there was enough room to do all this with engine in car. I broke the tang off the insert and it fell into the oil pan despite best efforts to prevent this...hopefully the oil pick up screen will prevent the tang from getting into the oil pump.) So now I measure the length of the tube protruding from the adapter and it is exactly 8 inches which is very close to Zeke3's measurement of 7-15/16 inches. I fill the last 2 cups of oil in the engine to make a total of 5 quarts in the engine(this was a routine oil change...I drained out the oil and re-filled with a total of exactly 5 quarts). I wait a while and measure the dipstick: it reads about 1/2 inch above full mark. Then I run the engine a while and re-check the dipstick: it still reads about 1/2 inch above full mark (this is right at the second "L" of the word "FULL" on the dipstick). There is no leaking oil. When the dipstick tubes were out of the engine I did stick a wooden stick down in the hole to try and gauge how much sludge was in the pan and as far as I can tell there was only about 1/16 inch of sludge depth...this is not the lowest part of the pan so there may be a little more sludge further down to the back of the pan. Anyway, I am satisfied that I have all the right oil pan parts now and that 5 quarts is the correct amount of oil for this engine despite the dipstick reading well above the full mark. There is no splattering or leaking of oil out of the rear seal or anywhere else. I can only account for others having leaking problems by putting in more than 4 quarts of oil in 1937 85hp engines from possibly having incorrect oil pans installed on their engine or having 60hp engine instead of 85hp engine. Regards, BRL
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| TomO | -- 12-24-2021 @ 12:15 PM |
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BRL Thanks for posting your experience. I like the way that you tried to do a quality repair, given what you had to work with. I hate it when butchers try to do car repairs. Your solution to repair the butcher's work is the best possible with the engine in the car. For future reference, the oil pan boss is replaceable and is being reproduced. You have to remove the oil pan to do the job right. The tang from the helicoil may come out with the next oil change, but if it doesn't here is a link to a handy tool to have around. https://www.amazon.com/RAM-PRO-Flexible-Magnetic-Grabber-Pickup/dp/B06XXHG3ZS/ref=sr_1_11?gclid=Cj0KCQiA_JWOBhDRARIsANymNOZkFgsCmwlwUQaHKbCO-pK5oPjP5SBRKrq9XZn9bMlG87LITuhrYJAaAvnzEALw_wcB&hvadid=323271601644&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9021474&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=9946832557260269681&hvtargid=kwd-755652157610&hydadcr=29069_10166165&keywords=long+flexible+magnetic+pickup+tool&qid=1640375516&sr=8-11 Enjoy owning and driving your car. You might consider buying the Club's 1937 book. It will help you know what is correct for your car and what to do if you want to change incorrect items. It is your car, so don't let anybody tell you that you have to make it "correct" until you have driven it a few years and attended some of the National Meets. I drove mine 30 years before I decided to correct enough items, so I could have it judged. I enjoyed showing it in the Touring Division and had a lot of fun while meeting other members across the country. Tom
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| flatfoot | -- 01-04-2022 @ 2:22 PM |
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Maybe the dip stick is too long or short. It also has a rubber at the handle end to help seal it when it is in place. Just an idea or thought.
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| supereal | -- 01-06-2022 @ 1:07 PM |
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When you change oil, and add the correct amount (usually 5 quarts), clean the dipstick well. and mark it with a file where the level is. When you check the oil level, you will know if you need any. Over the years dipsticks can be changed, and the tube altered, so establishing the correct "full" level is good idea. We do this with all the engines we rebuild in our shop.
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