| 39Fordfan | -- 10-05-2021 @ 6:22 PM |
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The timing gear on my '39 Deluxe shredded itself the other day while I was at highway speed. It looks like it's the pressed on type, not bolted on. It seems I'm in for a big job ahead of me. Unless you have a way around pulling the engine and tearing it down to press a new timing gear on? I'm thinking I'll pull the engine myself and figure out what machine shop I'm going to. I doubt I would rebuild it myself, but maybe it would make sense? I've never traveled down this road before, this was my Dad's car. I'm pretty sure Henry's guys were the last ones to ever touch this part of the engine. I'm wondering if you can give me some tips about; A) Pulling the engine. B) Questions to ask an engine rebuilder. C) Can you even find the parts needed during this pandemic? Can you get a better timing gear than this fiber type? D) The engine smoked a small amount on acceleration, and yet it pulled really strong. I'm not sure it needs a full overhaul? But it seems if I'm going to go to all this trouble it would be the wise thing to do. E) Any idea what it costs to rebuild a flathead these days? Or recommend a good flathead shop in the Midwest? Thanks! I really appreciate it. This message was edited by 39Fordfan on 10-5-21 @ 6:31 PM
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| alanwoodieman | -- 10-05-2021 @ 7:24 PM |
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I have been told there is a way to replace the gear, but as far as I know, the only press on available is the fiber gear. As an experiment I tried to remove the pressed on fiber gear, a lot of work but doable. later engines used bolt on fiber gears that were replaced with bolt on aluminum. to replace the cam does require a lot of work-pull heads/intake/valves--to do this it is easier to pull engine. I might be tempted to remove and replace the pressed on gear with a new one without removing the above mentioned parts
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| 39Fordfan | -- 10-06-2021 @ 7:05 AM |
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Thank-you so much for your response, Alanwoodieman! I was of the understanding I had on my '39 it was a 50/50 chance that I might have a gear that is bolted on. I guess the transition away from the pressed on timing gears was already occurring in '39. Have you heard much about the aluminum gear? Would it be an improvement? Or just go ahead and get the fiber gear and cross my fingers it goes long after I do? You succeeded getting the timing gear off with the motor in the car? Were you able to press another one too with the motor in the car? Thanks! This message was edited by 39Fordfan on 10-6-21 @ 7:06 AM
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 10-06-2021 @ 7:12 AM |
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HI I had to do this on a 36 , customers car, I removed the grill, intake and valves. timing cover, pulled the old cam out and pressed the new gear on I would look for a new cam, with the bolt on gear. replace the cam and gear, try SOUTHSIDE OBSOLETE in Minn, talk to FRED, he might have what you need, 1 507 332 6789 my 2 cents 37Ragtopman
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| TomO | -- 10-06-2021 @ 9:55 AM |
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I would pull the engine to replace the timing gear. The gears at the back of the camshaft operate the oil pump and you could have a problem getting them to mesh. I would not install a new camshaft in the old bearings, it could cause oil pressure problems due to bearing clearance. Any competent automotive machine shop can press on a new gear for you. Your photo shows the press on gear. If you are going to rebuild the engine, then I would get a camshaft with the bolt on gear. You need to provide your city and state in your request for an engine rebuilder. The 39 engine may have the thin steel sleeves and it is usually a good idea to replace the sleeves. Machine shops that are not familiar with the flathead V-8 have problems working on the engines with the steel sleeves. Most of the engines that had the sleeves had HS stamped on the machined surface where the intake is mounted. Look at the front of the engine first as that is the most likely place for the stamp. Tom
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| 39Fordfan | -- 10-06-2021 @ 10:47 AM |
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Hey 37RAGTOPMAN, Thanks! That's all good stuff. Yes, I am familiar with Fred at Southside Obsolete - definitely from this forum, it could've even been you who steered me to him a few years ago. I will give him a call and see what he has. I appreciate it!
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| 39Fordfan | -- 10-06-2021 @ 11:18 AM |
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Hi TOMO, Thanks for your response! I'm in Minnesota too. I'm about an hour west of the Twin Cities near Winsted. I figured I'd ask around with the Twin Cities EFV-8 Club about local machine shops familiar with flatheads. Living outside of the Cities and the pandemic has kind of cut me off from the group whose membership mainly lives on the east side of the Cities which puts me almost 2 hrs from them. However I am open to traveling a bit to bring the engine to a quality machine shop with good value and experience on flatheads. Are you saying after pulling the engine out of the car, it's possible to just the press on the timing gear and not have to tear down the engine to get that done? Or pull it apart as far as necessary to get a new timing gear pressed on and put the engine back in the car? Regarding the steel sleeves, are these cylinder sleeves you are talking about? I'll go and look for the stampings you suggested. I had the heads off this Spring for a head gasket job and I didn't think I noticed if the bores had sleeves. But I'm definitely going to look for what you mentioned. If I rebuild, the Cam with a bolt on gear sounds like a must. The rest I'm really rather unsure of at this point because the engine still seemed strong except for a bit of smoke at times. Right now, I'm thinking of replacing or machining everything that looks worn or is a no-brainer, but re-using as much of whatever makes sense. It's a Fordor and probably doesn't need major performance upgrades.
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| carcrazy | -- 10-06-2021 @ 12:05 PM |
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Your best course of action may be to find a competent Ford Flathead V-8 mechanic and pay him to make a house call to install a new fiber gear on your camshaft while it is still in the engine and the engine is still in the car. This is certainly the easiest way to go provided you can find a capable mechanic and the correct timing gear.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 10-06-2021 @ 12:56 PM |
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I also would inspect the CRANKSHAFT GEAR, this is most likely what made the CAM GEAR GO BAD, probably has rust pits in it,or rough surface on the teeth on the gear, the engine I replaced the cam shaft, was rebuilt , had no roblem lining up the oil pump drive gears, my 2 cents 37Ragtopman
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| 39Fordfan | -- 10-06-2021 @ 1:47 PM |
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Hi carcrazy, Thanks for your response. I would love to do what you are saying. Unfortunately my understanding is that it isn't really feasible (or possible) to put a press-on timing gear on the cam shaft while it's in the car. Are you saying it can be done? Any draw backs to doing it that way? I am able to procure a press-on gear and I could find a competent flathead mechanic, just not sure what will work?
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| 39Fordfan | -- 10-06-2021 @ 1:52 PM |
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Hi 37RAGTOPMAN, Thanks for your response. You are probably right, I will inspect that Camshaft gear and see what it looks like. Are you saying it is feasible (or possible) to put a press-on timing gear on the cam shaft while it's in the car? Any draw backs to doing it that way? Thanks!
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 10-06-2021 @ 3:51 PM |
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hi I had to take the engine apart , did not have to remove the heads, if my memory serves me right, remove the cam and press off the bad gear and press on the new one, I would like to see if it can be done in the car, I do not think it is that easy. without harming or breaking something on the engine what tools were used, I also believe the crankshaft gear is bad also my 2 cents 37Ragtopman
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| alanwoodieman | -- 10-06-2021 @ 6:17 PM |
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what did you use to hold up the valves, so cam can be removed?
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| carcrazy | -- 10-06-2021 @ 11:49 PM |
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Here is how to change a fiber cam gear with the camshaft in the engine. This description is from Richard Willim's book, "The V8-60 Ford's Little Powerhouse". "Changing the gear does not require disassembly of the engine. I have changed gears in as little as an hour. The trick is getting the gear back on, not gettng it off the camshaft. To remove the gear, drill a 7/32" hole through the gears press fit steel ring. Gingerly drive a tapered punch into the hole. Be sure the punch is not too long. You do not want the punch hitting the block behind the camshaft gear. This procedure will spread the press fit ring enough to release its hold. The gear can then be slid off of the camshaft." "To reinstall the cam gear, chill the camshaft and heat the gear being cautious not to overheat it and burn the fiber. Line up the timing marks of the gear to the camshaft and also to the crankshaft timing marks. This should be mocked up before the gear is heated. The timing marks of the camshaft will be out of location with the crankshaft at this time. Because of the beveled gear, the camshaft will rotate as the new gear slides into position, This will put the camshaft and crankshaft timing marks in proper line up when the gear is home. With a hammer and block of wood, or some other type of driver, tap the camshaft gear into place. This must be done quickly before the gear cools too much and stops moving." "The other alternative is to remove both the camshaft and the crankshaft gears. This method requires the removal of the oil pan. Install the camshaft gear first and then install the crankshaft gear. This method allows the crankshaft key to assist in aligning the timing marks as the crankshaft gear is installed. In some cases this is better for alignment than a mark and a line on the camshaft and gear." I hope that the above explanation will help you to accomplish this task as easily and economically as possible. Please let us know if this works for you. Mr. Willim was of course working on a Ford V8-60 engine but the process should be similar. This message was edited by carcrazy on 10-6-21 @ 11:58 PM
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 10-07-2021 @ 7:03 AM |
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I think I removed the valve springs and raised up the valves and removed the valve lifters, this was 25 years ago, so bear with me, hope this helps, 37Ragtopman IF you replace the gear in the car, like someone described, be sure to make sure you do not get any metal particles in the engine,
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| 39Fordfan | -- 10-08-2021 @ 1:02 PM |
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Dear carcrazy, Sorry I didn't see your post sooner. Your post is awesome. I am looking into it as we speak. Thank-you! If it works I'll send you some sort of gift. My questions with regards to this method are; 1) Are the camshaft bushings or bearings that are behind the timing gear strong enough to hold the camshaft in place while pulling the gear off the camshaft and tapping a new one on? Or do you have to support it somehow? (I have looked at schematics online and it seems like everything should hold together while the new gear gets tapped back on. Obvious question but just wanted to make sure.) 2) I wonder how well the newly tapped on gear will hold on the shaft in the long haul compared to a pressed on gear with the camshaft out of the engine? I wonder if there is any difference? Maybe Richard Willim answered these questions? I do not have his book. It sounds like he did it multiple times without issues. Maybe others on this forum have their opinions? Does anyone see a downside to trying this? Thanks! This message was edited by 39Fordfan on 10-8-21 @ 5:30 PM
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| 39Fordfan | -- 10-08-2021 @ 5:38 PM |
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37RAGTOPMAN Thank-you so much for all of your help! I will look into getting a new crankshaft gear when I order my timing gear and will probably do them together.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 10-10-2021 @ 11:26 AM |
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TIMING GEAR very good idea to change my 2 cents 37Ragtopman
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| shoebox | -- 10-31-2021 @ 12:37 PM |
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Also, if not already mentioned, I'd want to drop the pan to inspect for any timing gear teeth fragments.
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| gmcbuffalo | -- 07-26-2022 @ 7:20 PM |
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to remove the crankshaft gear as describe in the Williams article requires removal of the Key. How is this done? Greg Meiling 1935 3 Window Coupe
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| gmcbuffalo | -- 07-27-2022 @ 4:58 PM |
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Well Willim’s method will not work on a full size V8. The fiber gear’s metal ring extend deep into the fiber. It will not expand to come off. I drill two holes thinking it would expand. Started chipping the fiber out and found that the metal ring is well incorporated into the fiber. I will try dropping the pan and to take off the crank gear, remove heads to lift lifters. Reinstalling the motor with no help is a real chore, but it may be in my future. Greg Meiling 1935 3 Window Coupe
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| gmcbuffalo | -- 07-29-2022 @ 7:00 PM |
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What is possible if the radiator is out is to drill three holes in the fiber and use a pulley puller. Came right off. Greg Meiling 1935 3 Window Coupe
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| carcrazy | -- 07-29-2022 @ 8:05 PM |
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Excellent!
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